Columbia students taking questions Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

TBF I've never once interacted with CSO or any other admin group really but I've heard decent things from time to time.

in nearly three years, how is this possible?

CSO once sent an email very early in 2L year asking how I was doing. I told em I was cool. They said let em know if I need anything.

I did have to go through registration services to get enrolled in an undergrad class and get credit for it but it's not like I had to chat the dean up or anything. Most of this stuff is pretty straightforward.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Yeah, OCS isn't wholly incompetent, just really hit-and-miss. My experiences with Lois Jeffers and Marsha Diamond were generally good, although I was annoyed at them telling me to do fewer interviews (TCR for median and below is to do as many as you can possibly get your hands on).

But buried in last year's EIP thread are some things from counselors that make you wonder how these people get paid, like "A 3.7 student has no chance at S&C and Simpson without WE" and "If you really want Cravath, you should bid them top five."

[RSN]

Yeah, OCS isn't wholly incompetent, just really hit-and-miss. My experiences with Lois Jeffers and Marsha Diamond were generally good, although I was annoyed at them telling me to do fewer interviews (TCR for median and below is to do as many as you can possibly get your hands on).

But buried in last year's EIP thread are some things from counselors that make you wonder how these people get paid, like "A 3.7 student has no chance at S&C and Simpson without WE" and "If you really want Cravath, you should bid them top five."

Isn't that something that can be objectively disproved by the first failed bid list?

[Tiago Splitter]

Yeah, OCS isn't wholly incompetent, just really hit-and-miss. My experiences with Lois Jeffers and Marsha Diamond were generally good, although I was annoyed at them telling me to do fewer interviews (TCR for median and below is to do as many as you can possibly get your hands on).

But buried in last year's EIP thread are some things from counselors that make you wonder how these people get paid, like "A 3.7 student has no chance at S&C and Simpson without WE" and "If you really want Cravath, you should bid them top five."

Isn't that something that can be objectively disproved by the first failed bid list?

It changes a little year to year, but Cravath can always be bid down in the 20's. There is a line of thinking that you should just put your favorite firms up top, but for most people this is bad advice because the goal needs to be to maximize interviews.

[green.tea]

So how does it work if you're open to NYC Big Law, but the preferred employment outcome is in a secondary market? Some firms may recruit at EIP, but not the offices you're targeting. Is OCS of any value or are you on your own?

[smaug]

So how does it work if you're open to NYC Big Law, but the preferred employment outcome is in a secondary market? Some firms may recruit at EIP, but not the offices you're targeting. Is OCS of any value or are you on your own?

they might be of value to you, but stalking profiles and trying to find an alum to talk to might be better.

[green.tea]

So how does it work if you're open to NYC Big Law, but the preferred employment outcome is in a secondary market? Some firms may recruit at EIP, but not the offices you're targeting. Is OCS of any value or are you on your own?

they might be of value to you, but stalking profiles and trying to find an alum to talk to might be better.

Thanks!

Can anyone speak to the IP program at Columbia? It seems to be less science-focused than some lower T14 schools. Any idea if Prof. Edgar will be teaching again?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

So how does it work if you're open to NYC Big Law, but the preferred employment outcome is in a secondary market? Some firms may recruit at EIP, but not the offices you're targeting. Is OCS of any value or are you on your own?

If you're not Stone, I would forget about anything non-NYC. Yes, non-Stone people do get offers elsewhere, but the risk profile is not good. The number one reason people strike out is bidding something besides large-class NYC firms.

[J90]

So how does it work if you're open to NYC Big Law, but the preferred employment outcome is in a secondary market? Some firms may recruit at EIP, but not the offices you're targeting. Is OCS of any value or are you on your own?

You're not entirely on your own, but it's definitely more in your hands.

The biggest thing to remember's that the class sizes outside New York are just really small. There are many firms that take over 100 summers in New York, but in Los Angeles? I'd be surprised if it went above 30. The point of that's just that even if you get the screener, predicting results gets far more erratic because there are just more people competing for less spots.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that you need Stone to bid outside New York. But you should be much more careful - if your grades are low, don't bid on markets you don't have strong ties to. Don't bid DC (barring significant other factors - like if you really wanted to do telecom regulatory, and you'd worked in that industry for years before law school, and had done your 1L summer in something relevant, or if you can speak a few languages fluently and that ties into some niche field, etc.). Are you bidding on San Diego? Then be from San Diego or have a very sincere, articulable reason for wanting to go there.

[moonman157]

If you're looking for employment in a secondary market that you have ties to, your best bet would be to mass mail there. There will be certain markets (DC, Chicago, LA) that will be decently well-represented at EIP, but mailing the firms or reaching out to any connections you have is still probably a preferable way, and doesn't cost you any bids that you should probably save for NYC to be safe. And if you're not in one of those markets, mass mailing is basically the only way to go.

[RSN]

Two questions:

1) What percentage of the class is usually Stone? I know there's a GPA cutoff, but is that usually top 25%, less? I'm sure this is in the thread but would take some digging to find.

2) What's the mass mail procedure? I've heard the term and have a vague sense of what it involves (sending your resume, transcript and a basic cover letter to firms?), but don't know much else. Asking because I am definitely interested in non-NYC markets (DC primarily, where I am now with a few years of WE, which hopefully helps a bit) and wondering what happens if I end up around median with essentially only NYC options through EIP.

[Tiago Splitter]

Stone is like top 35-40%. No one knows for sure. The old consensus was that it was around top 30% but then they made a curve a little more friendly.

Mass mailing means sending your stuff to the firm via email. As moonman and others have said, the best bet is to make human connections at those smaller firms that don't come to EIP. But as that's not always possible mass mailing is the only other way to get their attention if they don't come to you. Still, for someone interested in DC you should have enough bids and interview time to get in front of a sufficient number of offices from both cities. I'd say NYC + one other market is pretty standard at EIP. Many offices in secondary markets won't fill up so you can add them after the lottery is over or just use a bid in the 25-30 range, where it's pretty much impossible to get most big NYC offices anyway.

[jbagelboy]

Two questions:

1) What percentage of the class is usually Stone? I know there's a GPA cutoff, but is that usually top 25%, less? I'm sure this is in the thread but would take some digging to find.

2) What's the mass mail procedure? I've heard the term and have a vague sense of what it involves (sending your resume, transcript and a basic cover letter to firms?), but don't know much else. Asking because I am definitely interested in non-NYC markets (DC primarily, where I am now with a few years of WE, which hopefully helps a bit) and wondering what happens if I end up around median with essentially only NYC options through EIP.

you don't need to worry about this stuff for like 18 months dude

[Nebby]

Two questions:

1) What percentage of the class is usually Stone? I know there's a GPA cutoff, but is that usually top 25%, less? I'm sure this is in the thread but would take some digging to find.

2) What's the mass mail procedure? I've heard the term and have a vague sense of what it involves (sending your resume, transcript and a basic cover letter to firms?), but don't know much else. Asking because I am definitely interested in non-NYC markets (DC primarily, where I am now with a few years of WE, which hopefully helps a bit) and wondering what happens if I end up around median with essentially only NYC options through EIP.

you don't need to worry about this stuff for like 18 months dude

[RSN]

I know, but the topic came up and it's something I've been curious about. Nice to have the info in my back pocket going in so I feel a little more ready when the time comes, and I appreciate the help.

Plus it's easier to think about the relatively mechanical process of EIP than the more individual challenge of figuring out how to do well in 1L (which I know I also have several months until I need to worry about).

[toothbrush]

When does course pre-selection occur/ when do the 15-16 courses get posted?

[Sgt Pepper]

Has anyone done the VLA Arts Externship/Know if people generally like it?

[RSN]

Non-EIP question -- any thoughts on the changes in the class size over the last several years? Here are the numbers from 2011-2017 (2015 and onward are the number of 1L matriculants set to graduate in those years):

2017: 381
2016: 352
2015: 368
2014: 468
2013: 437
2012: 469
2011: 456

Seems like there was a decision in 2012 to cut the class size by 100, and maybe they overshot their yield target a bit with this year's matriculants. According to my admission letter the target is 365 this year.

[Tiago Splitter]

Those early classes include a bunch of transfers. The cut in class size was more like 30-40. Still good for students.

[J90]

When does course pre-selection occur/ when do the 15-16 courses get posted?

I was told late May. I think preregistration happens a week or two later.

[stephcurry]

Had a question about my tuition grant. Assuming most people get the same letter, I was just a little confused since Columbia does the whole "need-aid only" thing. My tuition grant is $40,000 but it seems like in the letter that it's expected that I take a federal loan. Is the tuition grant independent of federal loans? Or will the grant be affected if I choose not to take out any loans? Thank you guys in advance!

[Nebby]

Grants are a grant, and once you accepted (by matriculation) then it's a contract subject to terms.

So no, they won't reduce it.

[banjo]

Had a question about my tuition grant. Assuming most people get the same letter, I was just a little confused since Columbia does the whole "need-aid only" thing. My tuition grant is $40,000 but it seems like in the letter that it's expected that I take a federal loan. Is the tuition grant independent of federal loans? Or will the grant be affected if I choose not to take out any loans? Thank you guys in advance!

Grants are not contingent on taking out loans.

[jbagelboy]

The financial aid office places a limit on the amount of federal loans you are eligible to request based on your grant amount. You can request any amount up to that amount, won't impact your grant.

[jrc223]

Looking through the housing options, 600 West 113th Street and 362 Riverside Drive look the most appealing to me in terms of cost/location. Does anyone have an opinion on which might be better based on personal experience?