How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

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natcas90
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How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby natcas90 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:04 pm

I'm CCN-secure right now but didn't apply to YHS because all the stats suggested that'd be $300 (and a lot of emotional investment) down the drain for me. Anyway, I'm thrilled by my current situation, of course, but I was wondering just how big a difference there really is in employment opportunities for CCN grads versus YHS. I realize that YHS grads are supposed to have their pick of jobs, but in terms of Big Law, clerkships, etc. Columbia and Chicago seem to really shine. Beyond lay prestige, which I grant is superior at YHS, is YHS *that* much better or is this distinction greatly exaggerated by TLSers?

lawyerwannabe
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:16 pm

From everything I read and everyone I have talked to, it seems like the distinction between HYS and the rest of the T14 is the biggest and most recognized. The CCN-tier schools, while better and recognized as such by some employers, seems to be largely a TLS thing.

Especially outside NYC, it is HYS and then the rest of the T14. I cannot quantify the difference perfectly, but it seems like HYS students, even below median, can land sweet jobs, where the CCN schools can even get a little dicey if one finds him or herself below median.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Transferthrowaway » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:30 pm

natcas90 wrote:I'm CCN-secure right now but didn't apply to YHS because all the stats suggested that'd be $300 (and a lot of emotional investment) down the drain for me. Anyway, I'm thrilled by my current situation, of course, but I was wondering just how big a difference there really is in employment opportunities for CCN grads versus YHS. I realize that YHS grads are supposed to have their pick of jobs, but in terms of Big Law, clerkships, etc. Columbia and Chicago seem to really shine. Beyond lay prestige, which I grant is superior at YHS, is YHS *that* much better or is this distinction greatly exaggerated by TLSers?


Y is *that* much better, HS is just better.

(This post looks sarcastic, but I promise it really is Y = league of its own, HS = appreciably better than CC)

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BruceWayne
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:33 pm

natcas90 wrote:I'm CCN-secure right now but didn't apply to YHS because all the stats suggested that'd be $300 (and a lot of emotional investment) down the drain for me. Anyway, I'm thrilled by my current situation, of course, but I was wondering just how big a difference there really is in employment opportunities for CCN grads versus YHS. I realize that YHS grads are supposed to have their pick of jobs, but in terms of Big Law, clerkships, etc. Columbia and Chicago seem to really shine. Beyond lay prestige, which I grant is superior at YHS, is YHS *that* much better or is this distinction greatly exaggerated by TLSers?


If you want a job outside of NYC or a clerkship it's a huge difference.

iamrobk
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby iamrobk » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:36 pm

Big difference IMO, but the difference between CCN and the rest of the T14 isn't nearly as big.

AS33
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby AS33 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:39 pm

To OP: I am wondering the exact same thing. But you're asking TLSers if the HYS distinction is exaggerated by TLSers. I think I can guess what the responses will be...

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Helmholtz
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:47 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:
natcas90 wrote:I'm CCN-secure right now but didn't apply to YHS because all the stats suggested that'd be $300 (and a lot of emotional investment) down the drain for me. Anyway, I'm thrilled by my current situation, of course, but I was wondering just how big a difference there really is in employment opportunities for CCN grads versus YHS. I realize that YHS grads are supposed to have their pick of jobs, but in terms of Big Law, clerkships, etc. Columbia and Chicago seem to really shine. Beyond lay prestige, which I grant is superior at YHS, is YHS *that* much better or is this distinction greatly exaggerated by TLSers?


Y is *that* much better, HS is just better.

(This post looks sarcastic, but I promise it really is Y = league of its own, HS = appreciably better than CC)


I think this is right.

NLJ250 + Art III clerkships for C/Os 2007-2010:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Harvard: 71%

Academic hiring from 1995 to 2011 (total academics from schools divided by class size):

Harvard: .21
Stanford: .19
University of Chicago: .18

On the other hand, I think there is no doubt that HLS is going to be better than Chicago or Columbia for getting that elite COA feeder-judge clerkship, SCOTUS clerkship, or a job at Wachtell, Cravath, or one of the elite DC firms (W&C, Covington, etc). But looking at the median HLS student and the average CLS/UChi student? Eh. I'm not convinced there is a huge difference. And naturally, the stats above don't take into account elite government hiring. You would probably see a gap there. But again, for the students at median? Not convinced.

Oh, and I think that NYU is closer to Penn (and Penn is probably generally better than MVB). But that is for another thread.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:55 pm

So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Transferthrowaway » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:57 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.

y u mad tho?

natcas90
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby natcas90 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:00 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.


I was actually looking for a thread on this subject and couldn't find it. I suspect it's out there, but nothing was turning up.

snehpets
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby snehpets » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:02 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.


I don't understand why people get so snarky/pissed about repeat threads. Just don't read them.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Transferthrowaway » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:05 pm

snehpets wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.


I don't understand why people get so snarky/pissed about repeat threads. Just don't read them.


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Helmholtz
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:18 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:
snehpets wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.


I don't understand why people get so snarky/pissed about repeat threads. Just don't read them.


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abl
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby abl » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:25 pm

1. Median at HYS is biglaw secure. This is not necessarily at true at CCN these days.
2. HYS have no grades. That = a much more cooperative and much less stressful experience.
3. The biggest difference between HYS and CCN is not in terms of NYC biglaw, but in terms of everything else. For clerkships, academic jobs, high profile public interest jobs, high profile government jobs, etc, etc the difference is huge.
4. The question here, however, is not whether the difference is huge. The question is whether it's >$300. That might seem like a lot of money to you now, but spread over a career it's virtually nothing. There are some on this board that will argue that the difference is not huge, but merely large or small but significant. You're going to struggle to find people that will argue that the (purely career-based) difference isn't >$300, though. And that doesn't take into account the less tangible (but also career-relevant) prestige and quality of life benefits that will come with going to HYS.

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Grizz
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:30 pm

Image

Transferthrowaway
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Transferthrowaway » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:31 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
snehpets wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:So glad you started this thread OP. This is totally the first time it is being discussed on TLS.


I don't understand why people get so snarky/pissed about repeat threads. Just don't read them.


Image


Image

Image

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Helmholtz
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:34 pm

abl wrote:2. HYS have no grades. That = a much more cooperative and much less stressful experience.
3. The biggest difference between HYS and CCN is not in terms of NYC biglaw, but in terms of . . . academic jobs


As for #2, I'm fairly certain that HLS has "no grades" for the purposes of promotional booklets only.

As for #3, According to the stats I posted, H and S are virtually identical to UChicago for academia placement. NYU and CLS? Yes. And Y is also a different story. The difference between Yale and Harvard/Stanford for academic hiring is about as proportionately big as the gap between Harvard/Stanford and Berkeley for academic hiring.

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BruceWayne
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:53 pm

Helmholtz wrote:I think this is right.

NLJ250 + Art III clerkships for C/Os 2007-2010:

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Harvard: 71%


Academic hiring from 1995 to 2011 (total academics from schools divided by class size):

Harvard: .21
Stanford: .19
University of Chicago: .18

On the other hand, I think there is no doubt that HLS is going to be better than Chicago or Columbia for getting that elite COA feeder-judge clerkship, SCOTUS clerkship, or a job at Wachtell, Cravath, or one of the elite DC firms (W&C, Covington, etc). But looking at the median HLS student and the average CLS/UChi student? Eh. I'm not convinced there is a huge difference. And naturally, the stats above don't take into account elite government hiring. You would probably see a gap there. But again, for the students at median? Not convinced.

Oh, and I think that NYU is closer to Penn (and Penn is probably generally better than MVB). But that is for another thread.



This data is extraordinarily misleading. If you actually separate the percentages into biglaw and article III clerkships you'll see that Harvard and Stanford are sending something like a quarter of their class into article III clerkships--Columbia and Chicago not so much. You've got a far better chance at ANY kind of fed clerkship out of HYS than you do at any school below that. And you're also being unrealistic about the DC firm thing too. It isn't just "elite DC" firms that you have a better shot at. A median HYS student is going to have a far better shot at any DC ( or any market other than NYC )firm than a CCN one.

I know you started that strange sentiment about only ability to get a NYC job matters etc. but for someone who wants a serious answer to this question that isn't fair. You could easily end up losing your shot at a DC or non NYC firm job by choosing CCN over HYS. I could see you telling someone that it doesn't matter if they were only interested in NYC, because that probably won't make a material difference in career outcome. But for non NYC jobs it really could be the difference between job and no job. Not to mention the difference that exists if he wants to work for the federal government--which again is massive.

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hung jury
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby hung jury » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:55 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
abl wrote:2. HYS have no grades. That = a much more cooperative and much less stressful experience.
3. The biggest difference between HYS and CCN is not in terms of NYC biglaw, but in terms of . . . academic jobs


As for #2, I'm fairly certain that HLS has "no grades" for the purposes of promotional booklets only.

As for #3, According to the stats I posted, H and S are virtually identical to UChicago for academia placement. NYU and CLS? Yes. And Y is also a different story. The difference between Yale and Harvard/Stanford for academic hiring is about as proportionately big as the gap between Harvard/Stanford and Berkeley for academic hiring.


#3 -- Leiter's stats are misleading:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150721

The difference is even more stark when you look at yield (though H lags in this regard).

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Helmholtz
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:05 pm

hung jury wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
abl wrote:2. HYS have no grades. That = a much more cooperative and much less stressful experience.
3. The biggest difference between HYS and CCN is not in terms of NYC biglaw, but in terms of . . . academic jobs


As for #2, I'm fairly certain that HLS has "no grades" for the purposes of promotional booklets only.

As for #3, According to the stats I posted, H and S are virtually identical to UChicago for academia placement. NYU and CLS? Yes. And Y is also a different story. The difference between Yale and Harvard/Stanford for academic hiring is about as proportionately big as the gap between Harvard/Stanford and Berkeley for academic hiring.


#3 -- Leiter's stats are misleading:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150721

The difference is even more stark when you look at yield (though H lags in this regard).


The post in the thread I think you're referring to was in reply to Leiter's 2003-2007 academia numbers (the ones I posted were updated for 1995-2011). Frankly, with how little academic hiring there is, it doesn't really make sense to do look at it over three or four years. (Also, the class size numbers give HLS the benefit of rounding, while UChicago's rounding is done to their detriment.)

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Helmholtz
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:16 pm

BruceWayne wrote: If you actually separate the percentages into biglaw and article III clerkships you'll see that Harvard and Stanford are sending something like a quarter of their class into article III clerkships--Columbia and Chicago not so much.


Meh, Art III clerkships are really not that hard to get as long as you're not picky. There are a ton of people who pass up an easy shot at an Art III clerkship to go straight into biglaw. Hell, there are people who don't get a biglaw offer, but land an Art III clerkship.

Oh, and by the way, Harvard placed 3 percent of its class of 2010 into government. It's not like Harvard has 20 percent DOJ placement that makes up for the fact that 29 percent of its students are not going into biglaw / an Art III clerkship while only 26 percent of Chicago's class is not going into biglaw / an Art III clerkship.

And what is this about being NYC-centric? Usually only between one in five and one in four UChicago students go to the NYC area (while up to twice that number stays in the Midwest).

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hung jury
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby hung jury » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:21 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
hung jury wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
abl wrote:2. HYS have no grades. That = a much more cooperative and much less stressful experience.
3. The biggest difference between HYS and CCN is not in terms of NYC biglaw, but in terms of . . . academic jobs


As for #2, I'm fairly certain that HLS has "no grades" for the purposes of promotional booklets only.

As for #3, According to the stats I posted, H and S are virtually identical to UChicago for academia placement. NYU and CLS? Yes. And Y is also a different story. The difference between Yale and Harvard/Stanford for academic hiring is about as proportionately big as the gap between Harvard/Stanford and Berkeley for academic hiring.


#3 -- Leiter's stats are misleading:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150721

The difference is even more stark when you look at yield (though H lags in this regard).


The post in the thread I think you're referring to was in reply to Leiter's 2003-2007 academia numbers (the ones I posted were updated for 1995-2011). Frankly, with how little academic hiring there is, it doesn't really make sense to do look at it over three or four years. (Also, the class size numbers give HLS the benefit of rounding, while UChicago's rounding is done to their detriment.)


Small sample size doesn't explain the gap between the 2003-2011 numbers taken as a whole (where HYS still outplace C) and the 1995-2011 numbers. 2003-2011 seems like enough data to me. Why include hiring data from the 1990s?

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BruceWayne
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:24 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
BruceWayne wrote: If you actually separate the percentages into biglaw and article III clerkships you'll see that Harvard and Stanford are sending something like a quarter of their class into article III clerkships--Columbia and Chicago not so much.


Meh, Art III clerkships are really not that hard to get as long as you're not picky. There are a ton of people who pass up an easy shot at an Art III clerkship to go straight into biglaw. Hell, there are people who don't get a biglaw offer, but land an Art III clerkship.

Oh, and by the way, Harvard placed 3 percent of its class of 2010 into government. It's not like Harvard has 20 percent DOJ placement that makes up for the fact that 29 percent of its students are not going into biglaw / an Art III clerkship while only 26 percent of Chicago's class is not going into biglaw / an Art III clerkship.

And what is this about being NYC-centric? Usually only between one in five and one in four UChicago students go to the NYC area (while up to twice that number stays in the Midwest).



I don't even know what to say about the enlarged bolded; wow just wow. It really speaks for itself.

And FYI, it's pretty common knowledge that it's essentially a requirement that one clerks before going into fed government work (ie. the DOJ) so the 3 percent into government stat from Harvard straight out is almost meaningless. You don't work for DOJ straight out of law school; ask anyone involved in their hiring--not happening without a federal clerkship.


You're also side stepping a lot of points. The OP asked if there is a meaningful difference between HYS and CCN. Multiple posters have told him that there is a huge difference for non NYC jobs. You just brushed that aside and came up with this sort of random comment about Chicago placing a decent bit of students in non NYC jobs. What people are saying is that the ability to get a non NYC firm job is much higher at HYS than it is at CCN. You have a good chance at a California or DC firm job going in as a student at HYS; you don't as a CCN one.

AS33
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby AS33 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:01 pm

You have a good chance at a California or DC firm job going in as a student at HYS; you don't as a CCN one.[/quote]

^Really..? Only on TLS would I feel insecure about going to an amazing school like Chicago.

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BruceWayne
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Re: How big is the difference between YHS and CCN?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:42 pm

AS33 wrote:You have a good chance at a California or DC firm job going in as a student at HYS; you don't as a CCN one.


^Really..? Only on TLS would I feel insecure about going to an amazing school like Chicago.[/quote]

This isn't 2007. No schools outside of HYS give you a good shot at a market like California or DC. It's just an unfortunate reality. And anyone who is in school and has gone through the career process knows this. Not sure why you think that this is mutually exclusive with Chicago being an amazing school.




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