Stanford Students Taking Qs (2011-12 Edition) Forum

[jrsbaseball5]

Thanks so much for doing this! Two quick questions for you:

1. Are you eligible to live with a spouse in Munger? It seemed like it was only for singles from the website.

2. Can any of you speak to the Supreme Court clinic? Is it difficult to enroll in it and what are student experiences like?

Thanks again!

[Kretzy]

hey! i didn't apply for the mba program and now im thinking i might want to go for the jd/mba. how hard is this to accomplish?

it depends. from my understanding, there was a period (when there were fewer JD/MBAs) that you could just apply and get in. now, it is not quite that simple. you'll have to be able to be competitive for the b-school to get in, though I think the law school calls over on your behalf and they seem to be amenable to having a fair number of JD/MBAs.

I'd say 60% of my class (2Ls) that applied to the JD/MBA got in, and I don't know a single person flat-out rejected; i.e., everyone at least made the first interview round. It's a tremendous improvement over the normal 7%ish admit rate.

hooray! thank you for the info:) i am having trouble getting my dad's income level/financial info...how strict r they about disclosure of parental info for need based awards? are there ever exceptions made (in the case of estrangement, for example) where only ur income is considered?
thanks:)

From what I can tell, fairly strict; I had to provide both sets of parental information, including for a parent to whom I don't speak. I didn't seek a waiver, though, but you should be asking now (if you haven't already) what the procedures would be for doing so. The Financial Aid folks are an understanding and helpful bunch in my experience, so they'll at least lay out what you'd need to do.

That being said, I think you'll likely have a fairly uphill climb (which will be more difficult the younger you are).

[Dani.B]

hey! i didn't apply for the mba program and now im thinking i might want to go for the jd/mba. how hard is this to accomplish?

it depends. from my understanding, there was a period (when there were fewer JD/MBAs) that you could just apply and get in. now, it is not quite that simple. you'll have to be able to be competitive for the b-school to get in, though I think the law school calls over on your behalf and they seem to be amenable to having a fair number of JD/MBAs.

I'd say 60% of my class (2Ls) that applied to the JD/MBA got in, and I don't know a single person flat-out rejected; i.e., everyone at least made the first interview round. It's a tremendous improvement over the normal 7%ish admit rate.

hooray! thank you for the info:) i am having trouble getting my dad's income level/financial info...how strict r they about disclosure of parental info for need based awards? are there ever exceptions made (in the case of estrangement, for example) where only ur income is considered?
thanks:)

0L here...

on the need access form I only put my mother's info and explained that my parents were never married and I had no clue where my father was in the box at the end for you to put additional info. I received my fellowship no problem and didn't have to sign a waiver

[Stig]

Sorry this thread has been neglected for so long! Finals + Spring break = no tls time, heh.

I'll try to answer all the questions over this weekend, but here are a couple I got via email that might be of use.

What has surprised me most about the first year of law school?
Tough to say. I came into SLS with sky-high expectations about how awesome life would be, and they have really been met. The most surprising thing is how tough is the kind of life that law school seems to demand. On a basic level, almost all of the work for the first year courses is individual. Unless you join a study group (I'm not sure what percentage of people did, but it was pretty chill), you will spend all your time on your classwork alone. Reading, outlining, going to class, taking practice exams, and taking exams are all individual. This was a big shift for me, as I really enjoy working in teams.

Luckily, SLS is super social. Other places may claim it, but when you have grades that determine your future coming up, I can't imagine you are still going out to bar review on Thursdays. People here have a good balance of work and play, but we are fortunate not to have any real pressure on us in terms of academic performance. That is not to say that people don't work hard, but here, an extra half hour of studying won't make any difference in your grade, whereas at other schools with curves it might.

So essentially, I was surprised with how isolating studying law is (and frankly, how boring it is at times), but being at Stanford makes it worth it. Of course, you have to make your own decision when you visit Chicago, Columbia, etc., but those two schools seemed to be at the very opposite of the spectrum to me and my roommates when we visited.


Anything I wish I knew going into law school?
I wish I had thought more about what I want to do with my law degree. I think I was lucky to talk with a few people within the first few months that pushed me towards working with entrepreneurs. Without that, it would be hard to chug through classes that weren't necessarily interesting to me. The ability to get through unexciting classes is generally correlated to knowing what law you'd like to do, in that it gives you a light at the end of the tunnel. People straight-through, like us, typically have a less solid idea of what we'd like to do, so it is worth thinking about a bit (by talking with lawyers in different fields) before starting law school.


How competitive would you say the financial aid usually is? I've got a difficult decision because I've gotten merit scholarships from Columbia and UChicago.
Hmmm. So you'll find that people at SLS (and HLS or YLS for that matter) turn down a lot of money at other schools. For me that meant a full ride at Penn and serious amounts at UChicago/NYU. Dean Deal is a great person to talk about for your personal situation, but the short answer is that you will spend 3 years of your life at a school, then have friends and connections from there for the rest of your life. You'll pay back the difference in loan money in a relatively small amount of time in comparison to the lifelong benefits you'll have from being an SLS alum. They might be able to bump your finaid award up a bit (a tiny amount) if you send them your other offers, but they won't play the matching game for non HYS schools. People generally agree that this experience is easily worth the difference in $ between the schools. Even simply being able to work at a law firm the first summer can make up a big chunk of the difference (which is much easier to do at SLS/HLS/YLS).

I'm still exploring the whole law profession, is there anything I should do to learn more about the different fields or even make up my own mind?
As I mentioned above, the spotlight lunches in the fall were super helpful. I imagine that all law schools do this, so by no means is SLS the only place to offer them. You'll have some time at the beginning of school to figure this legal stuff out, and especially once you sign up for a school, you'll have access to all its alumni. For example, all the reaching out I did was to SLS alumni, and the response was really great. For you before you start law school, I would think meaningfully about what kind of work you like to do, and what you are passion doing on an organizational level. A good way to do this is by talking to people who know you well, and asking what they think your strengths are, or what they think you enjoy doing best. People like us going straight-through have a challenge in that we haven't had that much time to reflect and learn what roles we like to play in organizations. For me, last summer meant a lot of roadtrips and a part time internship in Ann Arbor. I think this can be helpful because when you hear lawyers describing their day-to-day tasks, you'll better be able to say whether it appeals to you or not. For example, one start-up lawyer I talked to says most of his day is communicating via email or by phone or in person. He was the first outside counsel for Facebook back in the day, so he'd have weekly meetings with Zuck, Sean Parker, and Peter Thiel. I love that kind of communicating and problem solving for people. On the other hand, an IP litigator said she spent all day pouring over documents and researching, in solitude. For a lot of people in law school, this sounds great, but for me, I knew that it would be miserable. I really like people, and the idea of sitting alone reading all day sounded punishing. So, taking a breathe of air and thinking about who you are can be very valuable before you start school.

I've been talking to a few lawyers in my hometown, one that works with non-profits, another in immigration, and then one in the more traditional business law. Is there anything else I should do?
It sounds like you are already ahead of the game on this. Talking one or two lawyers might be tough because you won't necessarily know what you're getting out of it, but talking to a good sample of different kinds like that should be valuable because you'll be able to compare their attitudes/happiness/etc. This is similar to why I think visiting schools is very important. Even though I was pretty confident that I would be at SLS, visiting a handful of other ones made me even more confident. For example, UChicago was the first I visited, and I loved it, but by the end of all the visits I was able to put UChicago on a scale with all the other schools, which was valuable for my decision making.

How did you decide to work with start-ups?
In the fall we have a "spotlight" lunch series that has a couple lawyers from law firms in the area come in and have lunch with ~15 students about their practice. Each day has a different one, covering pretty much all the areas of law. I found them really helpful in getting a small taste of what lawyers liked or disliked about what kind of law they did. There were lawyers from an area firm that came to talk about working with start-ups, and everything they said they liked about working with entrepreneurs really resonated with me. From the top of my head, they were: early client contact, ownership over your work, great exit options, new and exciting work each day, being a true advisor/counselor to a business rather than just a lawyer, being able to maintain a generalist practice instead of having to specialize, passion and personal commitment to the clients as one of the most important ways to be successful. I mentioned some of those in an earlier email, I think. In conjunction with this, I've had a mentor who teaches patent law at Stanford, who is one of the few people I know who genuinely loves his job. He runs a patent boutique for about 100 start-ups and has a team of about 5/10 people. He plays this advisor role for his clients besides just doing patent filings for a flat fee, and loves it for all the same reasons that the lawyers at the law firm who came in loved their job. He recommended that I look into working at law firms that did this kind of work. Subsequently I reached out to a ton of lawyers in the area in this space and got to meet with a bunch of them. They told the same story.

What about this "interdisciplinary" learning?
My undergrad was very much interdisciplinary in nature, and I loved it. I get excited to solve problems, and understanding all the aspects surrounding a problem is crucial in doing this well. You are 100 percent correct that the future of the law is not just in isolation. As I mentioned above, start-up counseling requires business and all sort of other discipline's insights. You'll find that all the other law schools will talk about being "interdisciplinary" but a lot of it is just marketing. Example: Duke was very "interdisciplinary" when I was talking to their admissions office, but you can only take 1 class outside the law school, and petition for a second. How is that interdisciplinary, I'm not sure? On the other hand, you can take 10 classes outside the law school here, with tons of interesting project-based seminars with other schools in the law school. I think I mentioned in previous emails, but I'm really excited to explore the design and business school offerings next year. This article by Dean Kramer (although old) explains the SLS philosophy better than I ever could: 3D JD. There are tons of opportunities for exciting learning, TEDx style. There are way too many interesting conferences, etc. that are all happening here that I get to attend.


1. What's your take on teacher accessibility? I just visited Chicago this weekend and they really push that hard (and I believe them, actually).

It's funny you mention Chicago, I remember how much they pushed that last year. I think they try to go for it because of their more "rigorous" academic vibe. They have a great faculty, but then again, so do all the top schools. To be honest, I think the teacher accessibility will be about the same at all the small schools you are considering (Stanford, UChicago, Yale maybe). It is more a function of size than of culture in terms of accessing the professors. For example, we had Dean Kramer for Conlaw and he actually requested that more people come to his office hours because they weren't that busy.

2. When it comes to professors, do you feel like teaching and getting to know students is a priority, or are they more aloof? At Chicago they talk a lot about professors coming to events, chatting with students outside of class, welcoming questions, talking to students late at night by phone if needed, inviting students out to lunch or even dinner at their homes.

So here I think you are getting at professor engagement. I can't speak for other schools, but it is wonderful here. For example, we organized a BBQ for our section in the fall, and all five of our professors came out and had a drink and a burger with us. It was a ton of fun. Another example is that my seminar class last quarter ended with an afternoon of drinks at our professor's home. It was also a blast! Places where this might be different are big urban environments like NYC.


3. If you are a public-interest or public sector/government focused student, can you talk a little about the support at the school? Career help, sense of support, etc? The other two schools I'm looking at are very heavy big-law, which isn't my planned route, and I'm trying to get a sense for the vibrancy and strength of the public-focused opportunities at SLS.

I'm probably headed to biglaw, but my classmates have had great support getting epically cool jobs for this summer. Oslo, Amsterdam, the Hague, DC, NYC, etc. are all sexy destinations where people are doing government and public interest work. A lot of them got jobs before us in the private sector did I'd suggest asking around at ASW, but I think you'll find that people are really stoked about the PI/Govt opportunities here.

4. Why'd you choose SLS over other schools you were looking at?

To be brief, it was the happiest law school I visited by far. I had a really strong gut feeling that it was the place I needed to go for the next three years. I spent 5 months pouring over employment numbers, rankings, visiting 5+ schools, but once I steped onto Stanford's campus, I knew. What made it a good fit on paper for me was: interdisciplinary focus, great employment outcomes, no grades, etc., but at the end of the day it felt right to me. From what I've heard from other SLS students, they are just as happy with their decision as I am. At Stanford or Yale or Harvard, you'll be able to do whatever you want when you graduate; you might as well have a great three years of your life in top-law-schools.com is too short to do otherwise.

[Perdevise]

Thanks for this Stig, super interesting and useful. I am getting more pumped for Stanford every day.

[simpletimes]

Thanks! What other means are there for people that aren't interested in P.I.? I think I would like to work for a firm 1L summer just to figure out if it is the track I want to take.

if you're a 1L interested in a firm job, there's OCI, resume drops, and pretty much cold hitting up firms on your own. a handful of firms have "diversity" positions for 1Ls, but a good number don't take first year students at all. a 1L SA is not something to bank on, but it is a possibility. as far as i can tell, though, the firms that are interested in having 1Ls try to at least go through the office of career services - it's hard to get a job outside of that unless you have some other connection (SEO is something a lot of people did that landed them jobs early).

[abacus]

If you get grant aid from SLS and then decide to work at a firm your 2L summer, does the school use your earnings that summer to reduce their grant aid for 3L year?

[splitbrain]

Anybody have any experience with the Center for Internet and Society? Specifically with Bryant Walker Smith? This guy and his work fascinates the hell outta me.

[Kretzy]

If you get grant aid from SLS and then decide to work at a firm your 2L summer, does the school use your earnings that summer to reduce their grant aid for 3L year?

Yes, but it's a formula (something like: the first 8,000 is untouched, then they decrease it by 60% of every dollar you make over that). I worked at a firm 1L summer, and saw about a 1/3 decrease in my grant aid. I still came out ahead, though.

Thanks so much for doing this! Two quick questions for you:

1. Are you eligible to live with a spouse in Munger? It seemed like it was only for singles from the website.

2. Can any of you speak to the Supreme Court clinic? Is it difficult to enroll in it and what are student experiences like?

Thanks again!

On (1): Yes, yes you can. The 1 BRs are the really desirable places, but you could probably swing other options as well if you have an SO.

On (2): Yes. SCOTUS clinic is the only clinic that considers grades, and it's difficult to get. You have to do quite well, and demonstrate an interest in appellate work that the instructors find legitimate and believable (wanting another "gold star" isn't enough, though it does serve as one). My friends in the clinic like it a great deal, and from what I hear it greatly improves your appellate writing skills (and drafting/researching skills in general). I don't know how many people applied to the clinic and didn't get it, but the impression I get is than far more folks (especially 2Ls in the spring) want it than can get it, since they take 24 a year (combined 2Ls and 3Ls).

I'm currently working full-time in another clinic (Community Law, our legal aid clinic in East Palo Alto), so I'd be happy to answer non-SCOTUS clinic questions.

[puppylaw]

Thanks for all the well written and thorough answers, everyone!

I think I want to work in DC when I graduate. Stanford does amazingly well in California and on the 9th circuit, but what about in DC? I'm interested in clerking and big gov and big law. How is placement there? How is the alumni network? Do you have any tips or wisdom for DC?

[Kretzy]

Thanks for all the well written and thorough answers, everyone!

I think I want to work in DC when I graduate. Stanford does amazingly well in California and on the 9th circuit, but what about in DC? I'm interested in clerking and big gov and big law. How is placement there? How is the alumni network? Do you have any tips or wisdom for DC?

DC is the toughest major market. Outside very solid grades (more Hs than Ps), I wouldn't bid exclusively DC;* half DC, half another market seemed to leave people in pretty good shape, with a number of options. A lot of people wound up with DC offers, and I'd say a lot of the 2L class is heading there (it's probably SF/Bay Area > LA > DC >> NYC >>>> Chicago > Texas > the rest).

I didn't really have DC ties, so I stretched and hedged and told stories about experiences in DC. I did much worse in my DC OCI interviews than in other markets, but still got some CBs/offers at firms I really liked.

*I say this to be conservative. My friends who wanted DC got firm jobs in DC, and I don't know anyone who struck out there.

Clerking in DC is a whole different ballgame, especially if you're talking about the D.C. Circuit. First, they're all on-plan (except Williams and maybe one other) so you're taking a huge risk by forgoing the 50% or so off-plan judges so you can apply in D.C. The District Court in D.C. is not as competitive (but still quite competitive, esp. for district courts), but it's a unique docket compared to most district courts; folks do 4th Circuit, E.D. Va., D.Md., etc. if they want to be in the area, but those are also very desirable. If you're serious about clerking, you should think about your geographic flexibility and be willing to live somewhere random for a year, esp. if you want COA and aren't getting 2/3 Hs. People with lower grades than that get COA, but they're clerking in more random places or in their home circuit.

TL;DR: If you have at least a couple Hs, you've got a good shot at a DC offer, but apply elsewhere. D.C. Circuit is insanely competitive, on top of the already-crazy clerkship application process, so don't bet on it.

[Geneva]

Hey! Just PMed you, but also noticed that you chose SLS over Yale. I'd be interested to learn more about your decision making process. What role, if any, did being accepted to Yale off of the waitlist play in your final decision? Thanks!

[puppylaw]

If you get grant aid from SLS and then decide to work at a firm your 2L summer, does the school use your earnings that summer to reduce their grant aid for 3L year?

Thanks so much for doing this! Two quick questions for you:

1. Are you eligible to live with a spouse in Munger? It seemed like it was only for singles from the website.

2. Can any of you speak to the Supreme Court clinic? Is it difficult to enroll in it and what are student experiences like?

Thanks again!

On (1): Yes, yes you can. The 1 BRs are the really desirable places, but you could probably swing other options as well if you have an SO.

You, and everyone else thinking about living on campus, might find this helpful: http://www.stanford.edu/dept/rde-dev/cg ... eChart.pdf

It has rates and availability for all graduate housing. There are a few places for couples in Munger and hundreds of places for couples in Escondido village. My partner and I are leaning towards living on campus, but we're torn about where. For single students there are even more options.

[puppylaw]

Thanks for all the well written and thorough answers, everyone!

I think I want to work in DC when I graduate. Stanford does amazingly well in California and on the 9th circuit, but what about in DC? I'm interested in clerking and big gov and big law. How is placement there? How is the alumni network? Do you have any tips or wisdom for DC?

DC is the toughest major market. Outside very solid grades (more Hs than Ps), I wouldn't bid exclusively DC;* half DC, half another market seemed to leave people in pretty good shape, with a number of options. A lot of people wound up with DC offers, and I'd say a lot of the 2L class is heading there (it's probably SF/Bay Area > LA > DC >> NYC >>>> Chicago > Texas > the rest).

I didn't really have DC ties, so I stretched and hedged and told stories about experiences in DC. I did much worse in my DC OCI interviews than in other markets, but still got some CBs/offers at firms I really liked.

*I say this to be conservative. My friends who wanted DC got firm jobs in DC, and I don't know anyone who struck out there.

Clerking in DC is a whole different ballgame, especially if you're talking about the D.C. Circuit. First, they're all on-plan (except Williams and maybe one other) so you're taking a huge risk by forgoing the 50% or so off-plan judges so you can apply in D.C. The District Court in D.C. is not as competitive (but still quite competitive, esp. for district courts), but it's a unique docket compared to most district courts; folks do 4th Circuit, E.D. Va., D.Md., etc. if they want to be in the area, but those are also very desirable. If you're serious about clerking, you should think about your geographic flexibility and be willing to live somewhere random for a year, esp. if you want COA and aren't getting 2/3 Hs. People with lower grades than that get COA, but they're clerking in more random places or in their home circuit.

TL;DR: If you have at least a couple Hs, you've got a good shot at a DC offer, but apply elsewhere. D.C. Circuit is insanely competitive, on top of the already-crazy clerkship application process, so don't bet on it.

Thanks. I'm pretty surprised DC is ahead of New York. Is there much of an alumni network in DC? I know there are cozy Harvard alums everywhere in Washington.

[Br3v]

In regards to Letters if rec. for admissions.

I was reading the SLS profile on TLS and it mentioned SLS Requieres special letters of a particular form in which the professor evaluates you in different aspects. Is this just referring to the evaluation form on LSAC? Or something else?

I am asking my professors for letters this week so is there something specific I should ask them to do instead of just follow the guidelines for a regular letter of recommendation as stated on lsac?

[Stig]

In regards to Letters if rec. for admissions.

I was reading the SLS profile on TLS and it mentioned SLS Requieres special letters of a particular form in which the professor evaluates you in different aspects. Is this just referring to the evaluation form on LSAC? Or something else?

I am asking my professors for letters this week so is there something specific I should ask them to do instead of just follow the guidelines for a regular letter of recommendation as stated on lsac?

It should be the form that is on LSAC from Stanford specifically! Should be about one page.

Hey! Just PMed you, but also noticed that you chose SLS over Yale. I'd be interested to learn more about your decision making process. What role, if any, did being accepted to Yale off of the waitlist play in your final decision? Thanks!

Can't to speak to this myself, but my roommate chose SLS over YLS (not wait list). For him, he realized that he would have the same career opportunities at SLS, but have a way happier 3 years. I think it was the game of ultimate frisbee outside on some grass under the California sun during ASW. It has worked out wonderful for him, he's had an awesome time!
It should be easy to find people at ASW that made this decision, I think they should be able to provide some insight.

Anybody have any experience with the Center for Internet and Society? Specifically with Bryant Walker Smith? This guy and his work fascinates the hell outta me.

I work with Bryant! Tons of opportunities for really fun work outside of class. I'm building a database of manufacturers' progress on certain automated technologies. His work is an excellent example of the kind of work SLS is doing. I go to meetings with Bryant and a bunch of researchers from all the big automotive companies, and it is very clear that we are on the cutting edge of defining the legality of autonomous cars. Shoot me a pm, we can meet up during ASW, or I can set up a meeting with him if you like.

is it possible to get need-based aid if there is zero parental info for someone that is financially independent?

Not sure about this...if you haven't already, check in with the fin aid office! They are very helpful.

I'm coming for admitted students weekend with a parent who as no interest in attending admitted students events lol She wants to take the train into San Fran. Any suggestions for things she should do?

Oh man! So much to do.
Touristy things: Fisherman's Wharf, Haight Ashbury, Golden Gate Bridge, Crooked (Lombard) Street, Union Square shopping
Cool stuff: (probably need a zip car for this) Legion of Honor, Marin Headlands overlook over the bay, Twin Peaks overlook, etc...

[operagrl71]

Did you/do you know anyone who tried to negotiate an increase in their fellowship aid, and if so, any success stories??

*Edit: Also, how far below the COA budget do you think someone could reasonably live?

[hung jury]

Did you/do you know anyone who tried to negotiate an increase in their fellowship aid, and if so, any success stories??

*Edit: Also, how far below the COA budget do you think someone could reasonably live?

I haven't heard of anyone, but I haven't talked finances with most people.

The biggest variable is housing. I think you can meet COA living in a Munger 4 or 2 (~$1300), so if you can and are willing to find something for quite a bit less, than you can count on the differential unless you have other unexpected costs. But Palo Alto is pretty pricy so it isn't easy to find cheap alternatives if you want to stick nearby. Sharing a place in EV will save you some decent cash as compared to Munger. And there is always tuition-subsized lunches/food giveaways going on if you want to save that way. I wouldn't count on too much more than the housing savings, myself, but maybe others had more success.

[margrett]

Have you met any students who said they had low undergrad GPAs? TLS profile of SLS says the lowest GPA was 3.12.

[BioEBear2010]

Have you met any students who said they had low undergrad GPAs? TLS profile of SLS says the lowest GPA was 3.12.

It's possible we've met him/her, but we wouldn't know. It's more than taboo to talk about one's UGPA and LSAT score.

[JF215]

Have you met any students who said they had low undergrad GPAs? TLS profile of SLS says the lowest GPA was 3.12.

It's possible we've met him/her, but we wouldn't know. It's more than taboo to talk about one's UGPA and LSAT score.

How refreshing.

[Stig]

Have you met any students who said they had low undergrad GPAs? TLS profile of SLS says the lowest GPA was 3.12.

It's possible we've met him/her, but we wouldn't know. It's more than taboo to talk about one's UGPA and LSAT score.

I don't think anyone has ever talked about our undergrad GPAs here. Ever.

[Twit]

Tagged. Thanks, guys!

[BearState]

.

[elysian]

hi! a few quick questions about housing: is escondido south part of escondido village? on the housing application, escondido south is listed separately, so i'm a bit confused. if it is an entirely different residence, is there a significant number of law students who live there (similar to EV)? i'm definitely hoping to end up in munger, but just wondering how i should rank the rest.

thanks so much for doing this, guys!