UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

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a male human
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:07 pm

General_Tso wrote:surprising to see him go after the board of bar examiners. i dont think the bar exam format or grading has changed, but student quality is way down. if you are Hastings and admitting students with 3.5/154, it should not come as a surprise when your pass rates resemble the lower tier schools that used to attract that caliber of student

Given the overall pass rate was 43%, which is a February-level low and the third lowest rate for July on record, I don't blame him for making a jab at the Committee of Bar Examiners.

It's a tough situation because the legal market is oversaturated, and this is one way to cull the numbers. Sad but it's also on the law schools for admitting people willy nilly.

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General_Tso
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby General_Tso » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:10 pm

a male human wrote:
General_Tso wrote:surprising to see him go after the board of bar examiners. i dont think the bar exam format or grading has changed, but student quality is way down. if you are Hastings and admitting students with 3.5/154, it should not come as a surprise when your pass rates resemble the lower tier schools that used to attract that caliber of student

Given the overall pass rate was 43%, which is a February-level low and the third lowest rate for July on record, I don't blame him for making a jab at the Committee of Bar Examiners.

It's a tough situation because the legal market is oversaturated, and this is one way to cull the numbers. Sad but it's also on the law schools for admitting people willy nilly.


I mean look, Hastings is still over admitting students. They had 310 grads last year and only 170 got full time legal jobs. Barely over half. Now they are adding more students again back up to 380 class size.

If Hastings isn't going to take responsibility for their (hundreds) of over-indebted and underemployed grads, then somebody needs to send a message to prospective students. Don't enroll!

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:15 pm

I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby SFSpartan » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:44 pm

Hastings needs to stop enrolling people with shitty stats (they are sort of between a rock and a hard place there, though, as the fixed costs associated with their tenured faculty are/were out of control). That probably would help the bar passage rate improve.

Additionally, I know of a not-insignificant number of people that self-studied because they didn't have a job and couldn't afford Barbri/Themis/Kaplan. If the school were able to provide some resource (like an Adaptibar/BarEssays membership) to aid in self-study BEFORE students fail, that would probably be helpful. Edit: Though this would probably require alumni to kick in for.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:50 pm

SFSpartan wrote:Hastings needs to stop enrolling people with shitty stats (they are sort of between a rock and a hard place there, though, as the fixed costs associated with their tenured faculty are/were out of control). That probably would help the bar passage rate improve.

Additionally, I know of a not-insignificant number of people that self-studied because they didn't have a job and couldn't afford Barbri/Themis/Kaplan. If the school were able to provide some resource (like an Adaptibar/BarEssays membership) to aid in self-study BEFORE students fail, that would probably be helpful. Edit: Though this would probably require alumni to kick in for.

What about bar loans? I know it's a terrible alternative to getting seasonal discounts from the prep courses.

Recent alumni have absolutely no reason to donate, so I don't know how long the subsidized subscriptions to AB and BE are going to last.

Two Decembers ago, they sent me a holiday card. How nice, I thought... until I opened it and it was just a plea for donations. They should donate to me. In fact, I would revamp and rewrite their donation campaign emails if they paid me.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:00 pm

I'm surprised they didn't address the recent grad who committed suicide after (because?) he failed the bar. It really broke my heart to read about.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby SFSpartan » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:02 pm

a male human wrote:
SFSpartan wrote:Hastings needs to stop enrolling people with shitty stats (they are sort of between a rock and a hard place there, though, as the fixed costs associated with their tenured faculty are/were out of control). That probably would help the bar passage rate improve.

Additionally, I know of a not-insignificant number of people that self-studied because they didn't have a job and couldn't afford Barbri/Themis/Kaplan. If the school were able to provide some resource (like an Adaptibar/BarEssays membership) to aid in self-study BEFORE students fail, that would probably be helpful. Edit: Though this would probably require alumni to kick in for.

What about bar loans? I know it's a terrible alternative to getting seasonal discounts from the prep courses.

Recent alumni have absolutely no reason to donate, so I don't know how long the subsidized subscriptions to AB and BE are going to last.

Two Decembers ago, they sent me a holiday card. How nice, I thought... until I opened it and it was just a plea for donations. They should donate to me. In fact, I would revamp and rewrite their donation campaign emails if they paid me.


That's all fair. If the school provided better service(s) to students up front, as well as more substantial scholarship money (which I understand has improved, but UCH was way late to get on that bus), they probably could have headed this off.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby SFSpartan » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:05 pm

ilovesf wrote:I'm surprised they didn't address the recent grad who committed suicide after (because?) he failed the bar. It really broke my heart to read about.


Faigman sent out an email about it to c/o 2016, which included a statement from the family. Like you, I'm surprised it wasn't more widely circulated. And yes, it was because he failed the Bar.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby General_Tso » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:34 pm

SFSpartan wrote:
ilovesf wrote:I'm surprised they didn't address the recent grad who committed suicide after (because?) he failed the bar. It really broke my heart to read about.


Faigman sent out an email about it to c/o 2016, which included a statement from the family. Like you, I'm surprised it wasn't more widely circulated. And yes, it was because he failed the Bar.


Just terrible. The bar exam can be a dark and isolating experience for anyone. I went a little bit crazy myself under the stress of it. All law students need a healthy support group around them during that period. Feel terrible for his family

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby zot1 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:59 am

a male human wrote:I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.


Not every student with a low LSAT fails the bar.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:30 pm

zot1 wrote:
a male human wrote:I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.


Not every student with a low LSAT fails the bar.

Of course not. Not everyone with high scores passes either. I was in the top quartile of admittees in terms of LSAT, and I bombed the bar the first time. I've seen a top 10% student with a PhD fail, and a dude who looked high all the time (and got low grades according to rumors) pass. Anyone is subject to failure. (Incidentally, that's one reason I've run a bar prep blog for 3 years now.)

There just seems to be a trend with lowering incoming stats and lowering bar pass rates. In fact, in 2015, Hastings was the only accredited school in CA in tier 1 that had a pass rate below the state average.

Moreover, this is not just about the bar. Putting that aside, it's about the overall image and reputation of the school. It's an unfortunate truth of the market, but employers and schools look at the objective numbers (such as LSAT scores of incoming class and bar pass rates which affect the USNWR ranking) as a measuring stick. It doesn't help when ATL continually picks up stories about how Hastings is falling behind.

I, as an alum, don't want people to think I come from a non-decent school when I applied and got admitted to the school back when it was ranked in the 30s along with Davis. That's what it comes down to if we're being brutally honest here.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:32 pm

zot1 wrote:
a male human wrote:I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.


Not every student with a low LSAT fails the bar.

Did you go to Hastings too?

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby zot1 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:37 pm

ilovesf wrote:
zot1 wrote:
a male human wrote:I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.


Not every student with a low LSAT fails the bar.

Did you go to Hastings too?


Nah, Irvine. I considered schools in the Bay Area, but since UCI was my number 1, I didn't look back once I got accepted there. I always thought good things of Hastings though, and I think employers in the area will continue to do the same. Specially since the problem with the CA Bar exam seems to be systemic.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby zot1 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:38 pm

a male human wrote:
zot1 wrote:
a male human wrote:I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.


Not every student with a low LSAT fails the bar.

Of course not. Not everyone with high scores passes either. I was in the top quartile of admittees in terms of LSAT, and I bombed the bar the first time. I've seen a top 10% student with a PhD fail, and a dude who looked high all the time (and got low grades according to rumors) pass. Anyone is subject to failure. (Incidentally, that's one reason I've run a bar prep blog for 3 years now.)

There just seems to be a trend with lowering incoming stats and lowering bar pass rates. In fact, in 2015, Hastings was the only accredited school in CA in tier 1 that had a pass rate below the state average.

Moreover, this is not just about the bar. Putting that aside, it's about the overall image and reputation of the school. It's an unfortunate truth of the market, but employers and schools look at the objective numbers (such as LSAT scores of incoming class and bar pass rates which affect the USNWR ranking) as a measuring stick. It doesn't help when ATL continually picks up stories about how Hastings is falling behind.

I, as an alum, don't want people to think I come from a non-decent school when I applied and got admitted to the school back when it was ranked in the 30s along with Davis. That's what it comes down to if we're being brutally honest here.


You seem nice.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:47 pm

zot1 wrote:
a male human wrote:
zot1 wrote:
a male human wrote:I agree! Stop enrolling people with 150s LSAT and invest in fewer students with strong credentials (since that's what firms want). Quality over quantity here.


Not every student with a low LSAT fails the bar.

Of course not. Not everyone with high scores passes either. I was in the top quartile of admittees in terms of LSAT, and I bombed the bar the first time. I've seen a top 10% student with a PhD fail, and a dude who looked high all the time (and got low grades according to rumors) pass. Anyone is subject to failure. (Incidentally, that's one reason I've run a bar prep blog for 3 years now.)

There just seems to be a trend with lowering incoming stats and lowering bar pass rates. In fact, in 2015, Hastings was the only accredited school in CA in tier 1 that had a pass rate below the state average.

Moreover, this is not just about the bar. Putting that aside, it's about the overall image and reputation of the school. It's an unfortunate truth of the market, but employers and schools look at the objective numbers (such as LSAT scores of incoming class and bar pass rates which affect the USNWR ranking) as a measuring stick. It doesn't help when ATL continually picks up stories about how Hastings is falling behind.

I, as an alum, don't want people to think I come from a non-decent school when I applied and got admitted to the school back when it was ranked in the 30s along with Davis. That's what it comes down to if we're being brutally honest here.


You seem nice.

Is it because I agreed with you and specifically explained my position? I can be a little long-winded sometimes!

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby zot1 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:55 pm

I think what you want is for the school to accept more students with higher LSATs to increase your percentiles, but you don't have to completely bar the 150s to do that. You can just admit less.

However, I think what you're not thinking of is the fact that Hasting probably does admit a large percentage of students with LSATs in the 170s and high 160s and those students may be choosing to go somewhere else. Perhaps because the Bay Area market is already tight and employment numbers are not great. Perhaps because scholarships are not as high as someone would want. Perhaps because people don't want to live in the loin. Or perhaps because those students got accepted to Boalt instead.

My point is that the problem is larger than "let's not take students with 150 LSATs" suggests. At the of the day, if the 170s and high 160s are not enrolling, the school has to dip lower because professors and admin have to get paid.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:06 pm

zot1 wrote:I think what you want is for the school to accept more students with higher LSATs to increase your percentiles, but you don't have to completely bar the 150s to do that. You can just admit less.

However, I think what you're not thinking of is the fact that Hasting probably does admit a large percentage of students with LSATs in the 170s and high 160s and those students may be choosing to go somewhere else. Perhaps because the Bay Area market is already tight and employment numbers are not great. Perhaps because scholarships are not as high as someone would want. Perhaps because people don't want to live in the loin. Or perhaps because those students got accepted to Boalt instead.

My point is that the problem is larger than "let's not take students with 150 LSATs" suggests. At the of the day, if the 170s and high 160s are not enrolling, the school has to dip lower because professors and admin have to get paid.

I do agree with you that there are other factors at play, such as the ones you listed. When you say admit fewer students, that's what I was originally getting at as well (my post you originally quoted that mentions investing in fewer students with strong credentials).

Keeping in mind that I don't know all the factors at play, my solution is to perhaps simply have a standard instead of filling class sizes (to have enough money to pay its professors). I would like Hastings hold itself to a higher standard, put their foot down even if it costs them.

I realize a school is a for-profit business (or it might as well be), but I am of that opinion that a successful school cares about its students first and foremost, rather than profs trying to maximizing their salary. As unrealistic as this idea might be, I believe that trimming the fat to the point that the professors that remain truly care about the fewer students will help restore the school, while those who just wanted to collect paychecks move to another school or back to practice.

Hastings may take another hit in the rankings by doing so. However, just like how it bled out within the rankings slowly and gradually (and just like how shedding weight takes just as much time as putting on weight through consistent good and bad habits, respectively), curing its status will take time as well.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby zot1 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:42 pm

I don't disagree with you. Part of the problem comes down to money and having to admit larger class sizes to pay salaries. It is the law school bubble.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:57 pm

"In October, the ABA’s Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions approved a rule requiring schools to maintain a 75% pass rate within two years of graduation to stay accredited. The ABA’s House of Delegates has yet to sign off on the rule, but when and if it does some California law schools may find themselves in the ABA’s cross-hairs."

https://www.dailyjournal.com/public/Pub ... 2016-12-19

Pack your (body) bags because Hastings is fish in a barrel now

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby General_Tso » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:10 pm

a male human wrote:"In October, the ABA’s Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions approved a rule requiring schools to maintain a 75% pass rate within two years of graduation to stay accredited. The ABA’s House of Delegates has yet to sign off on the rule, but when and if it does some California law schools may find themselves in the ABA’s cross-hairs."

https://www.dailyjournal.com/public/Pub ... 2016-12-19

Pack your (body) bags because Hastings is fish in a barrel now


the two-year pass rate for Hastings is probably above 75% though. that statistic just means 75% pass after taking the bar 3-4 times.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:17 pm

General_Tso wrote:
a male human wrote:"In October, the ABA’s Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions approved a rule requiring schools to maintain a 75% pass rate within two years of graduation to stay accredited. The ABA’s House of Delegates has yet to sign off on the rule, but when and if it does some California law schools may find themselves in the ABA’s cross-hairs."

https://www.dailyjournal.com/public/Pub ... 2016-12-19

Pack your (body) bags because Hastings is fish in a barrel now


the two-year pass rate for Hastings is probably above 75% though. that statistic just means 75% pass after taking the bar 3-4 times.

Is it? Any links where can I look at statistics like that? Would appreciate any leads since it's kinda relevant to me.

Earlier today, I missed a call from the Alumni Center.

I offered Dean Faigman to put together a free resource to help graduates with their bar prep. He had Prof. Ratner (Academic Dean) reply to discuss. Then he said he didn't need it anymore because he thought it would simply be a remix of my free material. I want to "give back" to Hastings in some way, just not cash, but it's hard.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby rcharter1978 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:13 pm

I thought the issue was with students who had sub 150 LSATs.

And I think with those students, for better or worse, should probably have a different curriculum from day 1. The focus needs to be in developing skills to pass the bar. Not because these students are dumb, they just have a difficult time with standardized tests. Which is what the bar exam is.

And this goes for every school accepting sub 150s. It's a shitty thing to accept a student to law school, saddle them with 100k of debt knowing full well that statistics show they will have a harder time passing the bar.

Part of taking applicants with a sub 150 LSAT needs to be the schools responsibility to give them the resources to succeed. Which are different than what a student with an above 150 LSAT is going to need.

Add an additional half year if you must, but don't take students who are unlikely to pass and then thrown them to the wolves.

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ilovesf
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:03 pm

Did you go to Hastings?

tbh12
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby tbh12 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:09 pm

Hi everyone! I've been admitted to Hastings and if I were to attend, I would be looking at about a 45min-1hr commute each way. How is commuter life at Hastings? Does the school provide commuter resources? Is it harder to excel in law school as a commuter?

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby SFSpartan » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:57 pm

tbh12 wrote:Hi everyone! I've been admitted to Hastings and if I were to attend, I would be looking at about a 45min-1hr commute each way. How is commuter life at Hastings? Does the school provide commuter resources? Is it harder to excel in law school as a commuter?


Where are you commuting from? Commuting from the East Bay or Peninsula is a lot different than commuting from Marin.




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