UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:38 pm

a male human wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Have any other alumni received multiple copies of the NALP salary survey from Dean Wu?

I entered my mid-six figure salary the first time I got the survey, and now I've gotten 2 or 3 follow up emails asking me to take the survey again. I figured it might lock me out from doing it multiple times, but it doesn't. I wonder if UCH is targeting certain respondents for multiple survey responses to inflate its performance.

I didn't get one at all. (Mid-six meaning like $400-600k or $100-200k)?


ha, 100-200k

I think the survey is only for class of 2012

NorCalLaw
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby NorCalLaw » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:13 am

Mick Haller wrote:Have any other alumni received multiple copies of the NALP salary survey from Dean Wu?

I entered my mid-six figure salary the first time I got the survey, and now I've gotten 2 or 3 follow up emails asking me to take the survey again. I figured it might lock me out from doing it multiple times, but it doesn't. I wonder if UCH is targeting certain respondents for multiple survey responses to inflate its performance.


There's been turnover in the career office. I know a new person is now in charge of the job surveys, which might explain why there's been redundancy.

Not that it should happen, but, you know.

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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:11 pm

Hastings is also offering tremendous scholarships these days. My offer with 3.8/162 would have ranged from $60k to $105k. My actual offer was $0k. Sure, nobody made us attend UCH. But the point is, UCH could have afforded to offer better financial aid packages all along, yet did not.

The depth of how badly Hastings hosed the classes of 2010-2015 is almost incalculable.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:19 pm

Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is also offering tremendous scholarships these days. My offer with 3.8/162 would have ranged from $60k to $105k. My actual offer was $0k. Sure, nobody made us attend UCH. But the point is, UCH could have afforded to offer better financial aid packages all along, yet did not.

The depth of how badly Hastings hosed the classes of 2010-2015 is almost incalculable.

I got $10k, which was the most they offered. In addition, my suspicions are strong that they stacked the scholarship recipients in the same section (i.e., mine). My section was so full of gunners (having the largest presence on HLJ, taking up more library rooms than other sections, not showing up for social events, etc.) it wasn't even funny.

Also, they (or perhaps the LSAT) are terrible at predicting student success. I think I was 75th percentile LSAT among the applicants at a score of 164 (damn mauve dinosaurs!), but I graduated bottom 11% of the class! I learned how to "think like a lawyer" studying for the bar by myself, not at Hastings.

The fact that I have a good job at a firm with decent pay (just shy of 6 figures, but made up to 6 figures by helping bar examinees) is in large thanks to luck, creative thinking, and genuine pursuit of my area. If you're going to Hastings, you're probably a Boalt reject (almost good enough but couldn't scale the plateau), meaning you have or will need to develop a considerable amount of one or all of the above to graduate Hastings anyway.

I think law ruins lives, but is that for Hastings people only? Should I remain ignorant of various perks afforded by other schools that I try not to know about?

Well, in any case, I make it sound horrible (and it is), but if I can do it, you can too. Eventually, it will just be a semi-distant memory, and something you convince yourself was what you had to do—that the ends justify the means. Beware that the memory will likely be tinted with gross regret, though.

NorCalLaw
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby NorCalLaw » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:10 am

a male human wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is also offering tremendous scholarships these days. My offer with 3.8/162 would have ranged from $60k to $105k. My actual offer was $0k. Sure, nobody made us attend UCH. But the point is, UCH could have afforded to offer better financial aid packages all along, yet did not.

The depth of how badly Hastings hosed the classes of 2010-2015 is almost incalculable.

I got $10k, which was the most they offered. In addition, my suspicions are strong that they stacked the scholarship recipients in the same section (i.e., mine). My section was so full of gunners (having the largest presence on HLJ, taking up more library rooms than other sections, not showing up for social events, etc.) it wasn't even funny.

Also, they (or perhaps the LSAT) are terrible at predicting student success. I think I was 75th percentile LSAT among the applicants at a score of 164 (damn mauve dinosaurs!), but I graduated bottom 11% of the class! I learned how to "think like a lawyer" studying for the bar by myself, not at Hastings.

The fact that I have a good job at a firm with decent pay (just shy of 6 figures, but made up to 6 figures by helping bar examinees) is in large thanks to luck, creative thinking, and genuine pursuit of my area. If you're going to Hastings, you're probably a Boalt reject (almost good enough but couldn't scale the plateau), meaning you have or will need to develop a considerable amount of one or all of the above to graduate Hastings anyway.

I think law ruins lives, but is that for Hastings people only? Should I remain ignorant of various perks afforded by other schools that I try not to know about?

Well, in any case, I make it sound horrible (and it is), but if I can do it, you can too. Eventually, it will just be a semi-distant memory, and something you convince yourself was what you had to do—that the ends justify the means. Beware that the memory will likely be tinted with gross regret, though.


Most Hastings people probably don't even apply to Boalt anymore.

I like my firm and I don't really blame Hastings as an entity, but goddamn does Dean Wu suck. Dude isn't fit for any sort of leadership. He seems to find interacting with students and donors to be a tremendous pain. How the hell was he selected, anyway?

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby SFSpartan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:18 pm

NorCalLaw wrote:
a male human wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is also offering tremendous scholarships these days. My offer with 3.8/162 would have ranged from $60k to $105k. My actual offer was $0k. Sure, nobody made us attend UCH. But the point is, UCH could have afforded to offer better financial aid packages all along, yet did not.

The depth of how badly Hastings hosed the classes of 2010-2015 is almost incalculable.

I got $10k, which was the most they offered. In addition, my suspicions are strong that they stacked the scholarship recipients in the same section (i.e., mine). My section was so full of gunners (having the largest presence on HLJ, taking up more library rooms than other sections, not showing up for social events, etc.) it wasn't even funny.

Also, they (or perhaps the LSAT) are terrible at predicting student success. I think I was 75th percentile LSAT among the applicants at a score of 164 (damn mauve dinosaurs!), but I graduated bottom 11% of the class! I learned how to "think like a lawyer" studying for the bar by myself, not at Hastings.

The fact that I have a good job at a firm with decent pay (just shy of 6 figures, but made up to 6 figures by helping bar examinees) is in large thanks to luck, creative thinking, and genuine pursuit of my area. If you're going to Hastings, you're probably a Boalt reject (almost good enough but couldn't scale the plateau), meaning you have or will need to develop a considerable amount of one or all of the above to graduate Hastings anyway.

I think law ruins lives, but is that for Hastings people only? Should I remain ignorant of various perks afforded by other schools that I try not to know about?

Well, in any case, I make it sound horrible (and it is), but if I can do it, you can too. Eventually, it will just be a semi-distant memory, and something you convince yourself was what you had to do—that the ends justify the means. Beware that the memory will likely be tinted with gross regret, though.


Most Hastings people probably don't even apply to Boalt anymore.

I like my firm and I don't really blame Hastings as an entity, but goddamn does Dean Wu suck. Dude isn't fit for any sort of leadership. He seems to find interacting with students and donors to be a tremendous pain. How the hell was he selected, anyway?


And more to the point, why did the Board of Governors unanimously re-elect him after what has happened the last five years?

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:02 pm

Hastings is def targeting its gainfully employed 2012 grads for the survey. Careers office lady sent out a LinkedIn email to about 40-50 of us asking us to complete the NALP survey. I only saw one person in the recipient list who appeared to be a solo practitioner. The rest were working at big/mid firms, in-house, or government. None appeared to be working contract/non-JD required/unemployed.

I don't blame Hastings for wanting to put its best case forward, but the point of the NALP survey is to provide meaningful stats to the public. That goal is not advanced by painting a selective picture of the employment outcomes.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:04 am

Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is def targeting its gainfully employed 2012 grads for the survey. Careers office lady sent out a LinkedIn email to about 40-50 of us asking us to complete the NALP survey. I only saw one person in the recipient list who appeared to be a solo practitioner. The rest were working at big/mid firms, in-house, or government. None appeared to be working contract/non-JD required/unemployed.

I don't blame Hastings for wanting to put its best case forward, but the point of the NALP survey is to provide meaningful stats to the public. That goal is not advanced by painting a selective picture of the employment outcomes.


I filled out the survey right when it came out (a few months ago?) and also got a "please do this survey if you haven't already" email from Dean Wu. I work in a low-paying but prestigious government job.

I can't for the life of me figure out why they're spending millions on a new building. You don't need nice facilities to learn law. The best educational experiences I had at UCH were small lectures in those broom closet rooms and Keane evidence lectures where he wouldn't even mention the reading or the case law. UCH needs to boost its numbers and stop letting in idiots. Its bar passage rate went from about 90% in 2008 to an abysmal 68%. That's unbelievable. It's seriously approaching de-accreditation level of shit.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby JonTheMandamus » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:33 am

Well they keep lowballing applicants on scholarships. Being strategic about who to offer scholarship money to is one thing. Being consistently out of touch with what a large number of students are going to be offered from other schools is quite different.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby JonTheMandamus » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:36 am

Also, it doesn't make much sense to offer low scholarships, and then once you submit a decline, they magically have a bunch more money to offer you. Why not just offer that from the get-go and at least give students a reasonable option to consider? Questionable strategy.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:06 am

By the way, no one ever taught me how to "issue spot" at Hastings. It was a magical process full of guesswork that I didn't "get" until I studied for the bar the second time that I have now systematized for teaching to other bar takers.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby NorCalLaw » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:45 am

hiima3L wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is def targeting its gainfully employed 2012 grads for the survey. Careers office lady sent out a LinkedIn email to about 40-50 of us asking us to complete the NALP survey. I only saw one person in the recipient list who appeared to be a solo practitioner. The rest were working at big/mid firms, in-house, or government. None appeared to be working contract/non-JD required/unemployed.

I don't blame Hastings for wanting to put its best case forward, but the point of the NALP survey is to provide meaningful stats to the public. That goal is not advanced by painting a selective picture of the employment outcomes.


I filled out the survey right when it came out (a few months ago?) and also got a "please do this survey if you haven't already" email from Dean Wu. I work in a low-paying but prestigious government job.

I can't for the life of me figure out why they're spending millions on a new building. You don't need nice facilities to learn law. The best educational experiences I had at UCH were small lectures in those broom closet rooms and Keane evidence lectures where he wouldn't even mention the reading or the case law. UCH needs to boost its numbers and stop letting in idiots. Its bar passage rate went from about 90% in 2008 to an abysmal 68%. That's unbelievable. It's seriously approaching de-accreditation level of shit.


The old building is literally falling apart. Ventilation is all messed up, elevators frequently didn't work, and apparently it was going to cost even more to fix it all because it was essentially a teardown.

Probably the last thing the school needs at this point.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:54 pm

NorCalLaw wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is def targeting its gainfully employed 2012 grads for the survey. Careers office lady sent out a LinkedIn email to about 40-50 of us asking us to complete the NALP survey. I only saw one person in the recipient list who appeared to be a solo practitioner. The rest were working at big/mid firms, in-house, or government. None appeared to be working contract/non-JD required/unemployed.

I don't blame Hastings for wanting to put its best case forward, but the point of the NALP survey is to provide meaningful stats to the public. That goal is not advanced by painting a selective picture of the employment outcomes.


I filled out the survey right when it came out (a few months ago?) and also got a "please do this survey if you haven't already" email from Dean Wu. I work in a low-paying but prestigious government job.

I can't for the life of me figure out why they're spending millions on a new building. You don't need nice facilities to learn law. The best educational experiences I had at UCH were small lectures in those broom closet rooms and Keane evidence lectures where he wouldn't even mention the reading or the case law. UCH needs to boost its numbers and stop letting in idiots. Its bar passage rate went from about 90% in 2008 to an abysmal 68%. That's unbelievable. It's seriously approaching de-accreditation level of shit.


The old building is literally falling apart. Ventilation is all messed up, elevators frequently didn't work, and apparently it was going to cost even more to fix it all because it was essentially a teardown.

Probably the last thing the school needs at this point.


Well then. It seemed functional (maybe not the nicest building) in 2012, the last time I was there. I also refused to take the elevator unless I was going from the top floor to the basement because they were so painfully slow.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby NorCalLaw » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:07 pm

hiima3L wrote:
NorCalLaw wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is def targeting its gainfully employed 2012 grads for the survey. Careers office lady sent out a LinkedIn email to about 40-50 of us asking us to complete the NALP survey. I only saw one person in the recipient list who appeared to be a solo practitioner. The rest were working at big/mid firms, in-house, or government. None appeared to be working contract/non-JD required/unemployed.

I don't blame Hastings for wanting to put its best case forward, but the point of the NALP survey is to provide meaningful stats to the public. That goal is not advanced by painting a selective picture of the employment outcomes.


I filled out the survey right when it came out (a few months ago?) and also got a "please do this survey if you haven't already" email from Dean Wu. I work in a low-paying but prestigious government job.

I can't for the life of me figure out why they're spending millions on a new building. You don't need nice facilities to learn law. The best educational experiences I had at UCH were small lectures in those broom closet rooms and Keane evidence lectures where he wouldn't even mention the reading or the case law. UCH needs to boost its numbers and stop letting in idiots. Its bar passage rate went from about 90% in 2008 to an abysmal 68%. That's unbelievable. It's seriously approaching de-accreditation level of shit.


The old building is literally falling apart. Ventilation is all messed up, elevators frequently didn't work, and apparently it was going to cost even more to fix it all because it was essentially a teardown.

Probably the last thing the school needs at this point.


Well then. It seemed functional (maybe not the nicest building) in 2012, the last time I was there. I also refused to take the elevator unless I was going from the top floor to the basement because they were so painfully slow.


Yeah, the whole thing is perplexing. Other than the elevators being broken frequently (and at one point suddenly dropping several feet), the only specific incident I heard about was vents spewing black particulate matter into a class one time. I think that was back in 2014.

Otherwise, this is mostly hearsay from the administration.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:09 am

NorCalLaw wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
NorCalLaw wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:Hastings is def targeting its gainfully employed 2012 grads for the survey. Careers office lady sent out a LinkedIn email to about 40-50 of us asking us to complete the NALP survey. I only saw one person in the recipient list who appeared to be a solo practitioner. The rest were working at big/mid firms, in-house, or government. None appeared to be working contract/non-JD required/unemployed.

I don't blame Hastings for wanting to put its best case forward, but the point of the NALP survey is to provide meaningful stats to the public. That goal is not advanced by painting a selective picture of the employment outcomes.


I filled out the survey right when it came out (a few months ago?) and also got a "please do this survey if you haven't already" email from Dean Wu. I work in a low-paying but prestigious government job.

I can't for the life of me figure out why they're spending millions on a new building. You don't need nice facilities to learn law. The best educational experiences I had at UCH were small lectures in those broom closet rooms and Keane evidence lectures where he wouldn't even mention the reading or the case law. UCH needs to boost its numbers and stop letting in idiots. Its bar passage rate went from about 90% in 2008 to an abysmal 68%. That's unbelievable. It's seriously approaching de-accreditation level of shit.


The old building is literally falling apart. Ventilation is all messed up, elevators frequently didn't work, and apparently it was going to cost even more to fix it all because it was essentially a teardown.

Probably the last thing the school needs at this point.


Well then. It seemed functional (maybe not the nicest building) in 2012, the last time I was there. I also refused to take the elevator unless I was going from the top floor to the basement because they were so painfully slow.


Yeah, the whole thing is perplexing. Other than the elevators being broken frequently (and at one point suddenly dropping several feet), the only specific incident I heard about was vents spewing black particulate matter into a class one time. I think that was back in 2014.

Otherwise, this is mostly hearsay from the administration.


Perhaps there are some latent health and safety issues. Obviously, that isn't going to be public knowledge. The only explanation for the new building I've heard has been politician-speak from Dean Wu saying that the new building will be "state of the art" and nonsense like that. Unless the building is some huge liability that can be rectified in a cost-effective way only by building a new building--which seems highly improbable given the SF real estate market--I refuse to believe the new building is a good idea, or a better way of spending money than on, say, scholarships so the stats and corresponding bar passage rates don't keep plummeting.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:46 pm

Just want to say that lawschoolnumbers.com indicates that Hastings is giving out substantial scholarships these days. My numbers (3.8/162) would be worth 50-75k in scholarship money at present, whereas someone like me got nothing but need based grants back in 2009. Actually I didn't get any grants either for my first year.

This fact doesn't make me happy that Hastings is trying to stem its slide in the rankings, more so it annoys me that Hastings had money to give all this time, but was too stingy/greedy to give any aid to earlier classes.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:04 pm

Why I won't donate, ever:

- They sent me what looked like a "happy new year!" card. However, it was just a donation form disguised as a card.
- They used a survey firm to contact me and get opinions and donations. Not only was this highly impersonal, the firm did a bad job at establishing rapport with me. I could clearly tell they had a script where they ask me about my favorite professor and then agree about it, citing that other alumni had said the same thing ~wow social proof~
- I suspect they stacked scholarshit recipients in one section, which may have contributed to my low GPA. I know I'm mostly to blame, but the help I sought out was, at best, not helpful, at worst, led me down the wrong path.
- I didn't get much value out of the education for what I paid. In other schools, you'd be surrounded by nice facilities, people from other schools (engineering, undergrad, medical, etc.), and decent cost of living.
- Sari Zimmerman lied to me about how many people were interested in IP. She said about two people. More like one out of two people in the entire school and area. Very misleading information about the competition I'd have.

Yes, some of these could have been rectified by better research on my part, though I did my best research.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:09 pm

My reason for not donating is simple - Hastings gave me nothing, and they will get nothing in return. They took $120k in tuition from me, and they will not get a penny more.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:35 pm

I owe a lot to UC Hastings. From the professors, to the law journal, to forging friendships, UC Hastings was a life-changing experience. When I graduated in 1978, I pretty much had my pick of jobs and very manageable debt to pay back. I’m now a senior partner at a top-200 law firm.


From a Hastings donation email I received today. A little tone deaf to be sending to recent grads.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:03 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
I owe a lot to UC Hastings. From the professors, to the law journal, to forging friendships, UC Hastings was a life-changing experience. When I graduated in 1978, I pretty much had my pick of jobs and very manageable debt to pay back. I’m now a senior partner at a top-200 law firm.


From a Hastings donation email I received today. A little tone deaf to be sending to recent grads.

Haha I saw that horrible email. To be fair, the next paragraph says:
But times have changed for UC Hastings and its students. With your support, our alma mater can regain its status among the top law schools in the nation. Without your financial support, we cannot do many of the things that will help improve our rankings and bar passage results. Over the past 15+ years, state taxpayer support for UC Hastings has dropped dramatically.

I'm going to guess this is meant for older classes who actually have money to spare and had a good experience with Hastings.

Their fundraising is really not great, though. I'm strongly considering sending them back a revised version and some tips so maybe they can actually get some donations.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:12 pm

Actually I'd like to get some input from people who have seen (or deleted without reading) the email to get a better sense of how people actually feel about donating. Like how many people actually donate and how many people get turned off by emails like this?

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:04 pm

I wouldn't donate. It's not that I HATE Hastings, but for me I would rather donate to my high school or college, so if I ever have extra money (which I definitely do not right now) and I wanted to donate to an educational institution, Hastings would be my last choice. If I did donate, I would donate to a specific department/clinic that I really loved and was my favorite part of school.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:10 pm

ilovesf wrote:I wouldn't donate. It's not that I HATE Hastings, but for me I would rather donate to my high school or college, so if I ever have extra money (which I definitely do not right now) and I wanted to donate to an educational institution, Hastings would be my last choice. If I did donate, I would donate to a specific department/clinic that I really loved and was my favorite part of school.

I think other would agree with you. The way I see it, there are three camps in the recent classes:

- ended up top quarter or so and hang out with other people who landed big gigs, neutral or willing to donate, may donate down the line
- had an OK experience, indifferent about solicitation tactics, may not read or care about the solicitation mails
- Hastings did not serve them at all, ended up with (or settled on) something despite Hastings, maybe even in a non-law field

If I had to take a wild guess, I think you're in the middle camp. So my burning question is: What makes you prefer donating to high school or college first?

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:23 pm

a male human wrote:
ilovesf wrote:I wouldn't donate. It's not that I HATE Hastings, but for me I would rather donate to my high school or college, so if I ever have extra money (which I definitely do not right now) and I wanted to donate to an educational institution, Hastings would be my last choice. If I did donate, I would donate to a specific department/clinic that I really loved and was my favorite part of school.

I think other would agree with you. The way I see it, there are three camps in the recent classes:

- ended up top quarter or so and hang out with other people who landed big gigs, neutral or willing to donate, may donate down the line
- had an OK experience, indifferent about solicitation tactics, may not read or care about the solicitation mails
- Hastings did not serve them at all, ended up with (or settled on) something despite Hastings, maybe even in a non-law field

If I had to take a wild guess, I think you're in the middle camp. So my burning question is: What makes you prefer donating to high school or college first?

I'm a little bit of all 3? I graduated like top 20%, have a job at a super small firm (despite Hastings), and I am generally indifferent. I do hang out with some biglaw people from Hastings but most of my friends from Hastings work for the government or in midlaw.

I would donate to my highschool first because I went to a small all girls boarding school. That time was amazing and it's where I made my lifelong friends and it really shaped me as a person. I would donate to my college first because I felt like I learned more and the community had a stronger impact on me. Hastings is like a commuter school (which is fine, that is one reason I wanted to go), so I feel like it is hard to make some people like me feel any connection to it.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby a male human » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:22 pm

Interesting, particularly the part about not making a connection to Hastings. Sometimes I wish I'd gone to Davis because it has a variety of schools on campus, just seems more lively and higher ranked.




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