UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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ilovesf
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:57 pm

Black mark socially? I think that's weird. One of my best friends was in legal analysis. I get that it might be embarrassing, but I think it is weird to say that it affects you socially. At least in my experience, it didn't. I honestly didn't know who was in it besides my friend, though I think maybe that is also because I don't hang out with tons of people from LS.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:10 am

ilovesf wrote:Black mark socially? I think that's weird. One of my best friends was in legal analysis. I get that it might be embarrassing, but I think it is weird to say that it affects you socially. At least in my experience, it didn't. I honestly didn't know who was in it besides my friend, though I think maybe that is also because I don't hang out with tons of people from LS.


I had LEOP tutoring classes throughout 1L. This comes from talking with a lot of LEOP people (who, unlike me, hang out with a lot of other LS people).

I heard from several people that you don't want to publicly share that you are in "legal analysis". The people I knew stopped asking about what moot course class/topic others were in for the possible awkwardness of talking to someone not in moot court. There might be exceptions but most people in legal analysis are there because of their grades.

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ilovesf
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:15 am

kapital98 wrote:
ilovesf wrote:Black mark socially? I think that's weird. One of my best friends was in legal analysis. I get that it might be embarrassing, but I think it is weird to say that it affects you socially. At least in my experience, it didn't. I honestly didn't know who was in it besides my friend, though I think maybe that is also because I don't hang out with tons of people from LS.


I had LEOP tutoring classes throughout 1L. This comes from talking with a lot of LEOP people (who, unlike me, hang out with a lot of other LS people).

I heard from several people that you don't want to publicly share that you are in "legal analysis". The people I knew stopped asking about what moot course class/topic others were in for the possible awkwardness of talking to someone not in moot court. There might be exceptions but most people in legal analysis are there because of their grades.

I think that is more out of embarrassment rather than being a black mark socially. I understand being embarrassed, but it's not like someone is going to be mean or something to you because of it.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:36 am

ilovesf wrote:I think that is more out of embarrassment rather than being a black mark socially. I understand being embarrassed, but it's not like someone is going to be mean or something to you because of it.


Okay. By black mark I meant embarrassment. Law school is full of really intelligent people and no one wants to be thought of as being in the bottom 10%. Sorry for the confusion.

rollininthedeep
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby rollininthedeep » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:29 am

kapital98 wrote:
ilovesf wrote:Black mark socially? I think that's weird. One of my best friends was in legal analysis. I get that it might be embarrassing, but I think it is weird to say that it affects you socially. At least in my experience, it didn't. I honestly didn't know who was in it besides my friend, though I think maybe that is also because I don't hang out with tons of people from LS.


I had LEOP tutoring classes throughout 1L. This comes from talking with a lot of LEOP people (who, unlike me, hang out with a lot of other LS people).

I heard from several people that you don't want to publicly share that you are in "legal analysis". The people I knew stopped asking about what moot course class/topic others were in for the possible awkwardness of talking to someone not in moot court. There might be exceptions but most people in legal analysis are there because of their grades.


Is it "safe" to tell people you're in LEOP nowadays? When people found out I was in LEOP... well, that was really embarrassing versus telling people I was in Legal Analysis. I could easily point to the fact that I took LA for strategic reasons, but everyone lets you know that the only reason you likely got into Hastings was because of LEOP.

And then for a while the entire community hated us because they thought we were some sort of outline bank. Obviously there are going to be people that shared their outlines, but I thought it was a bit ridiculous to obtain and use someone else's outlines/work when you had no idea who they were.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:13 pm

rollininthedeep wrote:Is it "safe" to tell people you're in LEOP nowadays? When people found out I was in LEOP... well, that was really embarrassing versus telling people I was in Legal Analysis. I could easily point to the fact that I took LA for strategic reasons, but everyone lets you know that the only reason you likely got into Hastings was because of LEOP.

And then for a while the entire community hated us because they thought we were some sort of outline bank. Obviously there are going to be people that shared their outlines, but I thought it was a bit ridiculous to obtain and use someone else's outlines/work when you had no idea who they were.


Is this a question? It sounds like you've already been through your first year. If you have any questions I'll be free to answer them.

Generally, don't tell people you're in LEOP unless you're willing to be criticized by others. People generally won't ask about it.

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Dingo Starr
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Dingo Starr » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:52 pm

Good to know.
I was accepted @ Hastings but denied LEOP. I applied just because I wanted the option of having extra study resources. Guess I better prepare myself for a healthy dose of elitism when school starts. I was hoping this wouldn't be the case at Hastings ( if for no other reason than because it's not S or B). Live and learn

Moonlight
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Moonlight » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:26 pm

Dingo Starr wrote:Good to know.
I was accepted @ Hastings but denied LEOP. I applied just because I wanted the option of having extra study resources. Guess I better prepare myself for a healthy dose of elitism when school starts. I was hoping this wouldn't be the case at Hastings ( if for no other reason than because it's not S or B). Live and learn


LEOP denies people really? I would think accepted to the school would be simulatenous to LEOP?

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Dingo Starr
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Dingo Starr » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:48 pm

Moonlight wrote:LEOP denies people really? I would think accepted to the school would be simulatenous to LEOP?

Apparently and not necessarily, in that order.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Moonlight » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:22 pm

Dingo Starr wrote:
Moonlight wrote:LEOP denies people really? I would think accepted to the school would be simulatenous to LEOP?

Apparently and not necessarily, in that order.


Interesting. I'd still like to meet some LEOP students and see what that program is about though.

rollininthedeep
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby rollininthedeep » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:08 am

kapital98 wrote:
rollininthedeep wrote:Is it "safe" to tell people you're in LEOP nowadays? When people found out I was in LEOP... well, that was really embarrassing versus telling people I was in Legal Analysis. I could easily point to the fact that I took LA for strategic reasons, but everyone lets you know that the only reason you likely got into Hastings was because of LEOP.

And then for a while the entire community hated us because they thought we were some sort of outline bank. Obviously there are going to be people that shared their outlines, but I thought it was a bit ridiculous to obtain and use someone else's outlines/work when you had no idea who they were.


Is this a question? It sounds like you've already been through your first year. If you have any questions I'll be free to answer them.

Generally, don't tell people you're in LEOP unless you're willing to be criticized by others. People generally won't ask about it.


I ask because you mentioned that you had revealed that information to others. I didn't know when I came to Hastings to keep my mouth shut and based on my experiences, I was surprised that you had casually mentioned it. Perhaps your internet anonymity may protect you, but considering my friends were easily able to identify me by screen name, I did not have that luxury.

I'm not sure if you've read my couple other posts above, but I've graduated already ('11)...

rollininthedeep
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby rollininthedeep » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:09 am

Moonlight wrote:
Dingo Starr wrote:Good to know.
I was accepted @ Hastings but denied LEOP. I applied just because I wanted the option of having extra study resources. Guess I better prepare myself for a healthy dose of elitism when school starts. I was hoping this wouldn't be the case at Hastings ( if for no other reason than because it's not S or B). Live and learn


LEOP denies people really? I would think accepted to the school would be simulatenous to LEOP?


You can message me if you want. I graduated a few years ago, but I was in LEOP.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:31 am

rollininthedeep wrote:
I ask because you mentioned that you had revealed that information to others. I didn't know when I came to Hastings to keep my mouth shut and based on my experiences, I was surprised that you had casually mentioned it. Perhaps your internet anonymity may protect you, but considering my friends were easily able to identify me by screen name, I did not have that luxury.

I'm not sure if you've read my couple other posts above, but I've graduated already ('11)...


Now I understand. Thanks.

Not many people knew I was in LEOP. I'm a stereotypical looking white man. The last person you would expect to benefit from a quasi-affirmative action program. Most of what I know comes from talking with other LEOP students.

There seems to be a lot of talking behind people's back when it comes to LEOP. The stereotypes is that LEOP people wouldn't have gotten into Hastings without LEOP, that they aren't as smart as the other students, and that they bring down the rankings. People who are traditional URM students recieve the worst of this. The dislike of LEOP students becomes a really big deal after first semester grades. Many LEOP people do extremely well and the regular students cry foul.

My first year at hastings (11-12') there was a large outcry against how LEOP tutored students. Tutors were banned from giving outlines to students and restricted on what they could do. It was all kind of ridiculous. Also, LEOP had a staff position cut do to budget concerns.

I find it to be a case of privileged students disappointed with their grades (and biglaw dreams) and wanting a scapegoat.

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DildaMan
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby DildaMan » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:03 am

kapital98 wrote:Not many people knew I was in LEOP. I'm a stereotypical looking white man. The last person you would expect to benefit from a quasi-affirmative action program. Most of what I know comes from talking with other LEOP students.

There seems to be a lot of talking behind people's back when it comes to LEOP. The stereotypes is that LEOP people wouldn't have gotten into Hastings without LEOP, that they aren't as smart as the other students, and that they bring down the rankings. People who are traditional URM students recieve the worst of this. The dislike of LEOP students becomes a really big deal after first semester grades. Many LEOP people do extremely well and the regular students cry foul.

My first year at hastings (11-12') there was a large outcry against how LEOP tutored students. Tutors were banned from giving outlines to students and restricted on what they could do. It was all kind of ridiculous. Also, LEOP had a staff position cut do to budget concerns.

I find it to be a case of privileged students disappointed with their grades (and biglaw dreams) and wanting a scapegoat.


I'm not quite sure what you mean by privileged.

I don't think people were upset with LEOP students because of rankings or race. LEOP basically gives you access to extra tutoring and mock tests during 1L. Due to the importance of 1L grades, quite a few students were upset they weren't offered the same educational resources as LEOP students. As far as I'm concerned, every law school should provide an even playing field for each student after admissions. Law-school is a zero-sum game.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:46 am

DildaMan wrote:I'm not quite sure what you mean by privileged.

I don't think people were upset with LEOP students because of rankings or race. LEOP basically gives you access to extra tutoring and mock tests during 1L. Due to the importance of 1L grades, quite a few students were upset they weren't offered the same educational resources as LEOP students. As far as I'm concerned, every law school should provide an even playing field for each student after admissions. Law-school is a zero-sum game.


The people admitted into the LEOP program all come from adversity. Usually it has to do with not having the resources traditionally necessary to succeed. Essentially, it's an affirmative action program.

Now, we can disagree if affirmative action should exist. However, assuming that it does, it doesn't make any sense to put these people in law school without additional resources. It would defeat the purpose of the program.

The people who go to law school are overwhelmingly privileged (is affluent a better word?). I can't count the number of times I talked to people and their parents were doctors, lawyers, etc... Sure, they are not super rich. But they are well off.

All of those extra resources don't necessarily transfer into higher grades. You have to actively work towards those grades. Almost all of the material we used was publicly available (practice tests, prep materials). The primary exception is tutors. While the tutors were paid modest stipends it was essentially charity work on their part.

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DildaMan
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby DildaMan » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:00 pm

kapital98 wrote:The people who go to law school are overwhelmingly privileged (is affluent a better word?). I can't count the number of times I talked to people and their parents were doctors, lawyers, etc... Sure, they are not super rich. But they are well off.


I really doubt the veracity of this statement, especially at UC Hastings. I see fairly healthy spread of diversity in terms of socioeconomic status. Personally, neither my student group members nor I came from affluent families. We all attended public schools; some of us worked a few years prior to applying to law-school.

kapital98 wrote:All of those extra resources don't necessarily transfer into higher grades. You have to actively work towards those grades. Almost all of the material we used was publicly available (practice tests, prep materials). The primary exception is tutors. While the tutors were paid modest stipends it was essentially charity work on their part.


The primary advantage isn't the practice tests or prep materials. Many students have no idea what 1L entails in terms of test format or preparation. Having a tutor/mentor and some sort of structure provided for you during the first year translate into a sizable advantage. Yes, you can find all these materials and information by yourself given enough time but Hastings should provide this to all of its students. There isn't a good reason to only provide the information/materials to a select few students.

kapital98 wrote:Now, we can disagree if affirmative action should exist. However, assuming that it does, it doesn't make any sense to put these people in law school without additional resources. It would defeat the purpose of the program.


We agree to disagree. If you are already admitted to law school, why can't you give all students uniform access to the same services? Sure, give LEOP students access to tutors and test prep materials. That's fine. Why can't you give the non-LEOP students the same access? For something as important as 1L grades, schools really should provide a level playing field.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby lisavj » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:15 pm

hm, well I consider myself fairly privileged...and want to throw out one thing to think on. I had the luxury of taking the summer before law school off. I spent that time hiking and reading books like getting to maybe. Was that not also an "unfair advantage" as I showed up rested, tanned, and with some idea of what to expect in law school? Life is rarely, if ever, fair. I also had the luxury of taking an unpaid gig in the courts that I undoubtedly credit with my transfer success. Was that an "unfair advantage"? IMHO we work with what we have, someone else may have a different advantage/disadvantage.

As an aside, at SLS there is a huge outline databank that is shared among all students. It is helpful, but I would argue that there is a huge benefit to making your own outline anyways...

I'm not sure I knew and/or cared who got in how, everyone was there, what difference does it make.

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DildaMan
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby DildaMan » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:50 pm

lisavj wrote:hm, well I consider myself fairly privileged...and want to throw out one thing to think on. I had the luxury of taking the summer before law school off. I spent that time hiking and reading books like getting to maybe. Was that not also an "unfair advantage" as I showed up rested, tanned, and with some idea of what to expect in law school? Life is rarely, if ever, fair. I also had the luxury of taking an unpaid gig in the courts that I undoubtedly credit with my transfer success. Was that an "unfair advantage"? IMHO we work with what we have, someone else may have a different advantage/disadvantage.


Those have nothing to do with what resources a school will provide its students. The argument isn't whether LEOP students have an "unfair advantage" over non-LEOP students. The argument is that there is no reason for Hastings to withhold the test materials and preparation aid from non-LEOP students.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:27 pm

I just want to chime in, briefly, about LEOP with respect to my experience.

I'm pretty sure that I was in a different section from you guys, but I can say that kapital98's experience existed in my section, but with a twist.

There were a handful of outspoken LEOP participants/advocates who self-indentified: they made at least one speech to us before class to try and drum up support against LEOP cuts.

Fast forward to 1L spring/summer and we were able to figure out that none of them did well at all (again this was in my section, I don't know what happened in other sections). They didn't score more than the 1-2 random interviews you are guaranteed at OCI, they didn't get any of the CALI awards, and it was rumored that they were mysteriously missing from Moot Court (which many of my section mates took to mean they were required by the school to take "Legal Analysis," this was more of a "mixed bag" as at least 1 was in Legal Analysis, but at least 1 wasn't).

By the start of 2L, I definitely heard grumblings from former section mates that maybe LEOP was to blame for a lot of the school's problems, and the justification was the outspoken LEOP members in our section.

This was different from kapital98's experience in that I don't ever recall hearing anger over "they got outlines and we didn't!" but more like "they got all this extra help and they're still dragging us down!"

To be honest, it's really great to hear, now, that LEOP created some of the top-performers as well. Hard information on how people are ranked is just so impossible to come by that a handful of bad apples basically sunk the perception of LEOP in my section, and if I'm honest, I bought into the perception because there just wasn't any evidence to the contrary. It's just one of those difficult things about the "fog of law school." It's sort of like trying to analyze performance based on class comments - some people talk a lot and score at the top of the class; some people talk a lot and score at the bottom; some people never talk and score at the top. You can usually identify the first two groups because of what they say, but you never know who's in the third, so you can never really tell what the standing for the whole class looks like.

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ilovesf
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby ilovesf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:30 pm

This is weird to hear about because I never really paid attention to any of this stuff or discussed it with any of my friends.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:47 am

DildaMan wrote:
kapital98 wrote:All of those extra resources don't necessarily transfer into higher grades. You have to actively work towards those grades. Almost all of the material we used was publicly available (practice tests, prep materials). The primary exception is tutors. While the tutors were paid modest stipends it was essentially charity work on their part.


The primary advantage isn't the practice tests or prep materials. Many students have no idea what 1L entails in terms of test format or preparation. Having a tutor/mentor and some sort of structure provided for you during the first year translate into a sizable advantage. Yes, you can find all these materials and information by yourself given enough time but Hastings should provide this to all of its students. There isn't a good reason to only provide the information/materials to a select few students.



We will have to disagree over the affluent nature of law school. IMO, the affluent often don't know they are affluent. There is a lot of empirical evidence that in the US all people think of each other as middle class (even really rich people). We are not all middle class though.

However, I really just wanted to comment on this part of your response. Hastings does provide an introduction to law school. First semester professors try to tell you how to study (ex: Takacs in torts). Before exams Hastings provided seminars explaining the IRAC method and how to do well on tests. Practice exams are publicly available for all students who want them. All of these things provide a basic groundwork for doing well on tests.

Now, if you want additional materials they are available too. LEEWS seminars exist, the LEEWS tapes exist, GtM exists, and plenty of other study materials. Do they cost something extra? Sure. However, an extra $100 is practically nothing compared to everything else in law school. Finally, TLS exists and is 100% free (and not part of LEOP). Personally, I used TLS guides more than anything else during 1L.

The tutoring is really the only unique part about LEOP that other individuals can't reasonably find on their own. Everything else is available for people willing to look for it.

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DildaMan
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby DildaMan » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:46 am

kapital98 wrote:We will have to disagree over the affluent nature of law school. IMO, the affluent often don't know they are affluent. There is a lot of empirical evidence that in the US all people think of each other as middle class (even really rich people). We are not all middle class though.


Yup we agree to disagree. Law students who are affluent wouldn't need to take out huge student loans right? The average student leaves Hastings with $119,038 in debt.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+3

What exactly is your definition of affluence? Do you consider the middle class (upper and lower) affluent?

kapital98 wrote:However, I really just wanted to comment on this part of your response. Hastings does provide an introduction to law school. First semester professors try to tell you how to study (ex: Takacs in torts). Before exams Hastings provided seminars explaining the IRAC method and how to do well on tests. Practice exams are publicly available for all students who want them. All of these things provide a basic groundwork for doing well on tests.


Sure, I'll concede this point if you concede that LEOP students are given additional guidance in prepping for law school exams. Like you said, we agree to disagree on whether this is appropriate.

kapital98 wrote:Now, if you want additional materials they are available too. LEEWS seminars exist, the LEEWS tapes exist, GtM exists, and plenty of other study materials. Do they cost something extra? Sure. However, an extra $100 is practically nothing compared to everything else in law school. Finally, TLS exists and is 100% free (and not part of LEOP). Personally, I used TLS guides more than anything else during 1L.


Sure. I don't care about resources that aren't provided by the school. That's fair game for everyone. Why can't Hastings provide its LEOP materials and services to non-LEOP students?

kapital98 wrote:The tutoring is really the only unique part about LEOP that other individuals can't reasonably find on their own. Everything else is available for people willing to look for it.


I know for a fact certain exams were administered to LEOP students that weren't available on the website.

Yes, I spent time looking for materials. Yes, some are available online or through other channels. My purpose in responding to the initial post about LEOP is to let incoming students know that LEOP provides additional services to help prepare students for exams. Why these services are limited to 20% of incoming students, I don't know. They should be aware of this and perhaps can compensate by being proactive by looking into the aforementioned materials.

Do I hate LEOP students? No. We all work hard for our grades.
Do some non-LEOP students hate on LEOP students? Yes, I hear all sorts of stupid reasons ranging from they're dragging the rankings down to they don't belong here.
Do I have a problem with Hastings providing selective services to 20% of the incoming class? Yes, there is no justification for providing selective services to a small portion of the incoming class.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:10 am

I would say anyone in the upper-middle class or higher should be considered affluent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_middle_class [Top third of income is $65,000]. So under this analysis pretty much anyone with a professional for a parent will fall under "affluent". This label can also be used for the children of the affluent. They have exceptional opportunities that low income children do not have (ex: The dumbest rich kids graduate college at a higher rate than even the most intelligent poor kids, according to SAT scores). I'm going to guess that most affluent people, under this definition, go to public schools.

Taking out loans is a natural part of paying for education. Only the really, really rich (top 5%?) have parents who will shell out $100-200k over the course of three years for education.

The lower middle class and the middle class (say, 25% and 50% of income bracket) would not qualify as affluent. These people exist in law school but, from my subjective impressions, are the minority. I doubt there is any really good objective data about this.

--

I think we're just spinning our wheels on the rest of this discussion. I think it's necessary for the LEOP procedures to be in place for the purpose of the program to work (the purpose being de facto affirmative action). Giving these resources to the other students would defeat the purpose -- especially if law school is a zero-sum game. As far as I can tell you disagree. You think each student should have equal opportunity and that these LEOP resources should be available to all students. Which, even though I disagree with, I think is a reasonable argument.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:44 pm

ilovesf wrote:This is weird to hear about because I never really paid attention to any of this stuff or discussed it with any of my friends.


This.

It's kind of funny to me thinking that people truly believe it matters in that it affects the rankings. The rankings do not matter at all. Hastings has some of the worst employment rates in the nation, way worse than plenty of lower-ranked schools. Whether UCH is #25 or #55 it's still a gigantic uphill battle to getting a good job. This has been more true than ever for the past 5 or so years.

As for 1L grades, it's really impossible to figure out what makes people successful. Some people just get it and can figure out how to take law school tests. Some people can't at all. Most of us can do so decently. I found no correlation between incoming stats and law school performance, but to be fair, all of my 1L friends had LSAT scores around 162-169. I know of a dude in a couple classes above mine who got a 179 and was below median.

That said, at the rate UCH is dropping its standards, I wouldn't be surprised if some people with 140s get accepted via LEOP. I think this is socially irresponsible on so many levels. If you can't break 150 at the absolute very least, you are either unable to read English well, cannot think critically in the way the law requires, incredibly lazy, and/or just plain dumb. Letting someone with a sub-150 LSAT spend six figures on a degree that confers less than a coin flip's chance at landing a job is egregious.

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OneMoreLawHopeful
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:58 pm

hiima3L wrote:It's kind of funny to me thinking that people truly believe it matters in that it affects the rankings. The rankings do not matter at all. Hastings has some of the worst employment rates in the nation, way worse than plenty of lower-ranked schools. Whether UCH is #25 or #55 it's still a gigantic uphill battle to getting a good job. This has been more true than ever for the past 5 or so years.


I don't think you understand the complaints about LEOP.

There are two separate issues.

First, the rankings actually do matter insofar as they help determine which firms come to OCI and how "portable" a UC Hastings degree is. A Nor Cal school that's not even in the top 50 anymore probably isn't going to get anyone hired in So Cal, but that's not how things were just 6 years ago (you can look at bios on firm websites and see this very plainly). LEOP is a HUGE program: ~20% of each class is admitted under LEOP (source: http://www.uchastings.edu/academics/edu ... /index.php ) and if that's resulting in lower LSAT Scores/GPAs, which drags down the ranking and thus diminishes the value of the degree, then yes, it's a concern.

But I don't think that's even the "primary concern" as I've heard it articulated.

The real complaint is that LEOP students have a significantly lower bar passage rate. This might be incorrect: Hastings has never made those numbers public. However, part of LEOP is a supplemental bar prep course, and if the LEOP kids passed the bar at the "normal" rate, then there would be no need for a supplemental school-funded bar prep course just for LEOP students. The inference is that LEOP students regularly fail the bar.

Given that the "conventional TLS wisdom" on getting hired post-graduation for non-biglaw positions is that smaller firms will wait to see if you pass the bar (because the smaller firms can't afford to keep on non-barred law clerks indefinitely), if you're not passing the bar, then you're not getting hired. Thus, the LEOP numbers, if they mean lower bar passage rates, may bear directly on the employment numbers coming out of Hastings.

It's important to note that the numbers we're talking about here aren't that far off: roughly 1/4th of the class of 2013 was unemployed as of February 2014 (source: http://uchastings.edu/about/consumer-in ... Report.pdf ), and roughly 1/4th of the class had also failed the July 2013 California bar (source: http://uchastings.edu/about/consumer-in ... 9_2013.pdf ). Now, it's clear that these two groups don't overlap 100% (I know at least two people with jobs who failed the bar), but if someone is already unemployed AND they've failed the bar, things are very unlikely to ever get better for them. Thus, if LEOP is leading to this situation (by admitting people who aren't going to pass the bar), then it's a bad program from an unemployment standpoint, which ALSO makes it a bad program from a rankings standpoint.

Of course, Hastings isn't transparent about the affects of LEOP at all, so this is mostly speculation. But it's not totally made up either: the speculation is based on observable facts (e.g. why is there a supplemental bar prep course if the LEOP program doesn't affect bar pass rates?), and Hastings isn't doing itself any favors by keeping the information they have a secret.




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