UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:52 pm

Onionskin, if it helps any, USD has a significantly higher bar passage rate:

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/01/california-bar-exam-results-by-law-school-open-thread/

The relative difference between the schools seems constant over the years. The absolute numbers tend to change (ex: The above link relatively underperforms previous years).

The bar exam is nothing to joke about. Failing the bar exam will cost you thousands of dollars in lost income and cause tremendous financial strain. If you have a job, you'll probably lose it. The chance of passing becomes significantly less if you fail the first time.

To Hastings and USD's credit, they tend to do very well on the bar exam. Both beat the state average. USF, on the other hand, tends to do quite poorly.

onionskin
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby onionskin » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:45 am

Kapital, thank you I knew there were other indicators/measures I was missing and that puts things nicely into perspective.

I'm not really committed to DA/PD one way or the other (if anything most likely DA), just meant to emphasize my disinterest in big law.

Looks like it's time to pull the plug on USF then.

In response to well.lets.see, what do you mean debt forgiven? I was under the assumption law school loans were non-dischargeable.

hiima3L
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:32 am

kapital98 wrote:Onionskin, if it helps any, USD has a significantly higher bar passage rate:

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/01/california-bar-exam-results-by-law-school-open-thread/

The relative difference between the schools seems constant over the years. The absolute numbers tend to change (ex: The above link relatively underperforms previous years).

The bar exam is nothing to joke about. Failing the bar exam will cost you thousands of dollars in lost income and cause tremendous financial strain. If you have a job, you'll probably lose it. The chance of passing becomes significantly less if you fail the first time.

To Hastings and USD's credit, they tend to do very well on the bar exam. Both beat the state average. USF, on the other hand, tends to do quite poorly.


The problem is not necessarily what school you go to, but whether you can do well on law school tests. I know from a professor at UCH who has access to the the info that of the UCH students who fail the bar, the overwhelming majority are in the bottom 30%. The professor also told me that the top 50% or so has a 95%+ pass rate. Of my few friends who failed July 2012, I know they all did poorly in law school.

This is the same at Boalt too: http://boaltalk.blogspot.com/2008/04/ad ... n-bar.html

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:34 am

hiima3L wrote:
kapital98 wrote:Onionskin, if it helps any, USD has a significantly higher bar passage rate:

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/01/california-bar-exam-results-by-law-school-open-thread/

The relative difference between the schools seems constant over the years. The absolute numbers tend to change (ex: The above link relatively underperforms previous years).

The bar exam is nothing to joke about. Failing the bar exam will cost you thousands of dollars in lost income and cause tremendous financial strain. If you have a job, you'll probably lose it. The chance of passing becomes significantly less if you fail the first time.

To Hastings and USD's credit, they tend to do very well on the bar exam. Both beat the state average. USF, on the other hand, tends to do quite poorly.


The problem is not necessarily what school you go to, but whether you can do well on law school tests. I know from a professor at UCH who has access to the the info that of the UCH students who fail the bar, the overwhelming majority are in the bottom 30%. The professor also told me that the top 50% or so has a 95%+ pass rate. Of my few friends who failed July 2012, I know they all did poorly in law school.

This is the same at Boalt too: http://boaltalk.blogspot.com/2008/04/ad ... n-bar.html


I was going to talk about this but decided it would just muddle the issue. I agree with you about it being more about how well you do on a law exam relative to the school. And what school you pick is largely self selection. People with worse #'s, and by extension worse test takers, will go to lesser schools.

The reason I didn't talk about this is because the correlations are too tenous. The correlation between GPA/LSAT and class rank is significant but small. Then you've got to extend that relationship of class rank to a (slightly stronger) correlation between class rank and bar passage. It makes sense but may not be statistically significant.

IMO, bar passage is one of the secondary reasons to attend a specific law school. It's not on the same page as tuition or employment data. However, it is still an important factor.

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Lasers » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:21 pm

i'm sad schools like SCU, USD and the like, no offense to those schools, are no longer clearly weaker options than hastings.

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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:55 pm

Lasers wrote:i'm sad schools like SCU, USD and the like, no offense to those schools, are no longer clearly weaker options than hastings.


I would have taken USD at near full scholly over Hastings. If I could do over.

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OneMoreLawHopeful
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby OneMoreLawHopeful » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:20 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
Lasers wrote:i'm sad schools like SCU, USD and the like, no offense to those schools, are no longer clearly weaker options than hastings.


I would have taken USD at near full scholly over Hastings. If I could do over.


Statements like these seem like really bad advice.

USD has half the biglaw placement that Hastings does (6.9% vs. 13.3%). I guess if it was totally free...maybe? But at the end of the day, even a free JD is just wasted time if it doesn't get you what you want. I completely understand the concern about student debt, but if you want biglaw (as most TLSers seem to), aren't you better off following biglaw placement numbers?

SCU is more comparable, but they have their own problems. They placed literally no students in Federal Clerkships last year, and they game their employment numbers, making most things they say suspect (their "Unemployed - Not Seeking" number is clearly inflated, it's hard to believe that fully 10% of the graduating class is really unemployed and not interested in employment).

I get that you guys are bitter (though I don't understand Lasers' bitterness at a school that Lasers doesn't even attend anymore), but when you say things like this it might cause 0Ls to make bad decisions. Is going to USD really worth halving your chances at biglaw? Should people really consider a school that seems to be openly lying about its employment statistics the way SCU does?

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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:37 pm

I was top 15% at UCH, I would have been fine at USD.

My outcome (70k, insurance defense) likely could be had from top 20% USD. Except with no debt.

But given what I know now, I prob wouldn't have gone to law school at all.

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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:41 pm

And I think most will agree that 200k COA with a 75-80% chance of a bad employment outcome is "really bad advice"

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:54 pm

Mick Haller wrote:I was top 15% at UCH, I would have been fine at USD.

My outcome (70k, insurance defense) likely could be had from top 20% USD. Except with no debt.

But given what I know now, I prob wouldn't have gone to law school at all.


I did well at Hastings and transferred to Cornell. So far along in the process I'm quite happy with how things have turned out.

That doesn't change my opinion about Hastings.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby onionskin » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:21 pm

How well were you doing at UCH, if I may ask?

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Lasers » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:23 pm

OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:
Lasers wrote:i'm sad schools like SCU, USD and the like, no offense to those schools, are no longer clearly weaker options than hastings.


I would have taken USD at near full scholly over Hastings. If I could do over.


Statements like these seem like really bad advice.

USD has half the biglaw placement that Hastings does (6.9% vs. 13.3%). I guess if it was totally free...maybe? But at the end of the day, even a free JD is just wasted time if it doesn't get you what you want. I completely understand the concern about student debt, but if you want biglaw (as most TLSers seem to), aren't you better off following biglaw placement numbers?

SCU is more comparable, but they have their own problems. They placed literally no students in Federal Clerkships last year, and they game their employment numbers, making most things they say suspect (their "Unemployed - Not Seeking" number is clearly inflated, it's hard to believe that fully 10% of the graduating class is really unemployed and not interested in employment).

I get that you guys are bitter (though I don't understand Lasers' bitterness at a school that Lasers doesn't even attend anymore), but when you say things like this it might cause 0Ls to make bad decisions. Is going to USD really worth halving your chances at biglaw? Should people really consider a school that seems to be openly lying about its employment statistics the way SCU does?

how am i bitter? the facts show hastings just isn't a good option anymore. i've always said that the school isn't the problem (indeed my experiences there were great), but the economy has pretty much destroyed any reason to attend. so no, i'm not bitter at all, but i'd like to inform people about the huge risk i wasn't aware i made when i decided to attend.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:45 pm

onionskin wrote:How well were you doing at UCH, if I may ask?


PM'd.

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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:25 am

Loyola NOLA, Chapman, Whittier, Villanova, Ave Maria, Oregon, Valparaiso, U of DC, Brooklyn, HASTINGS, Elon, Touro, St. Thomas, Golden Gate, Cal Western, Florida A&M.

(Schools with the worst unemployment rate for c/o 2012)

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0309002229

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Mick Haller
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:33 am

Lasers wrote:how am i bitter? the facts show hastings just isn't a good option anymore. i've always said that the school isn't the problem (indeed my experiences there were great), but the economy has pretty much destroyed any reason to attend. so no, i'm not bitter at all, but i'd like to inform people about the huge risk i wasn't aware i made when i decided to attend.


For the record, I'm not exactly bitter either. In fact I quite like my job and the money is enough for me. But I know far too many people (many of whom didn't do that much worse than me) who have nothing and nothing on the horizon.

FWIW my firm used to hire median type people from Hastings, and top 1/3 type people from SCU/USF. Now they are hiring top 15% and Coif types. I'm sure they could find willing Boalt grads, but they know there's practically zero chance of keeping a Boalt person around for more than a year or so.

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Lasers » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:47 am

Mick Haller wrote:
Lasers wrote:how am i bitter? the facts show hastings just isn't a good option anymore. i've always said that the school isn't the problem (indeed my experiences there were great), but the economy has pretty much destroyed any reason to attend. so no, i'm not bitter at all, but i'd like to inform people about the huge risk i wasn't aware i made when i decided to attend.


For the record, I'm not exactly bitter either. In fact I quite like my job and the money is enough for me. But I know far too many people (many of whom didn't do that much worse than me) who have nothing and nothing on the horizon.

FWIW my firm used to hire median type people from Hastings, and top 1/3 type people from SCU/USF. Now they are hiring top 15% and Coif types. I'm sure they could find willing Boalt grads, but they know there's practically zero chance of keeping a Boalt person around for more than a year or so.

yep. i know many people with absolutely nothing lined up as well.

it's not like we're bitter and have a grudge against the school or anything, but it's important for future applicants to know the situation going in.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:56 am

Lasers wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:
Lasers wrote:how am i bitter? the facts show hastings just isn't a good option anymore. i've always said that the school isn't the problem (indeed my experiences there were great), but the economy has pretty much destroyed any reason to attend. so no, i'm not bitter at all, but i'd like to inform people about the huge risk i wasn't aware i made when i decided to attend.


For the record, I'm not exactly bitter either. In fact I quite like my job and the money is enough for me. But I know far too many people (many of whom didn't do that much worse than me) who have nothing and nothing on the horizon.

FWIW my firm used to hire median type people from Hastings, and top 1/3 type people from SCU/USF. Now they are hiring top 15% and Coif types. I'm sure they could find willing Boalt grads, but they know there's practically zero chance of keeping a Boalt person around for more than a year or so.

yep. i know many people with absolutely nothing lined up as well.

it's not like we're bitter and have a grudge against the school or anything, but it's important for future applicants to know the situation going in.


It's been said before, but can you imagine how bitter this thread would be if it weren't full of people who did well at Hastings? All of the 2L's on here are either at Hastings with excellent GPA's or transferred (one of us even transferred to Stanford!).

This thread would be full of "retake" and "Don't go to law school - anywhere" if people with bottom 1/3rd grades were on TLS. There are hundreds of them each year that fall within this category. They have essentially no chance at being employed barring some miracle.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby sfhaze » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:21 am

Mick Haller wrote:Loyola NOLA, Chapman, Whittier, Villanova, Ave Maria, Oregon, Valparaiso, U of DC, Brooklyn, HASTINGS, Elon, Touro, St. Thomas, Golden Gate, Cal Western, Florida A&M.

(Schools with the worst unemployment rate for c/o 2012)

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0309002229

This, if true, is quite shocking considering the schools on the list.

I suspect these are self-reported stats though (i.e., highly susceptible to misrepresentation and even outright fraud), and I frankly don't think there's any reason to think Hastings' unemployment numbers, as bad as they are, are really different then those of UC Davis, SCU, USD, Loyola LA, Pepp, UoP-McG, Southwestern... schools not on this 'worst' list.

While the warnings in this thread are very much credited with respect to Hastings and law school in general, they absolutely apply to all CA schools below UCLA/USC. Nobody should fool themselves into thinking anything otherwise. And even at the USC/UCLA level, relatively many are left with less than desirable jobs -- so it's very rough out there.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby Mick Haller » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:31 am

Well you have to remember that Hastings' class of 2012 is larger than usual. I think we had around 450 1Ls. Also our bar passage rate was 4-5% lower than usual.

Lawschooltransparency actually lists a higher unemployment for Hastings, at 25%.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby sfhaze » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:48 am

Mick Haller wrote:Well you have to remember that Hastings' class of 2012 is larger than usual. I think we had around 450 1Ls.

:shock: Wow, did not realize this. What on earth was the admin thinking?! Class of 2012 entered post recession when there was absolutely no reason to think the econ would create substantially more legal jobs. Yet tuition also increased throughout this time at all UC law schools... Hastings needs to dramatically cut enrollment asap, even following the recent, and now in retrospect paltry, 20% decrease.

onionskin
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby onionskin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:31 am

I know UCH on the whole is a relatively large school, how does that bode in terms of the social experience? Is it easy to get lost/missed out/overlooked in the crowd by your peers and do you lose the intimacy of some smaller schools?

Or conversely does a larger class size help insulate you from the petty high school politics I keep reading about normally associated with some schools?

hiima3L
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:58 am

onionskin wrote:I know UCH on the whole is a relatively large school, how does that bode in terms of the social experience? Is it easy to get lost/missed out/overlooked in the crowd by your peers and do you lose the intimacy of some smaller schools?

Or conversely does a larger class size help insulate you from the petty high school politics I keep reading about normally associated with some schools?


It's a tiny campus and, like every other school, cliques naturally form 1L year due to sections, small LWR/moot court classes, etc.

But your social experience should be the absolute last thing you consider about where to attend a LS.

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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby hiima3L » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:02 am

Lasers wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:
Lasers wrote:how am i bitter? the facts show hastings just isn't a good option anymore. i've always said that the school isn't the problem (indeed my experiences there were great), but the economy has pretty much destroyed any reason to attend. so no, i'm not bitter at all, but i'd like to inform people about the huge risk i wasn't aware i made when i decided to attend.



yep. i know many people with absolutely nothing lined up as well.

it's not like we're bitter and have a grudge against the school or anything, but it's important for future applicants to know the situation going in.


This.

The only people I know who blame Hastings are those who think career services can somehow magically make jobs appear out of thin air and place students into them, and/or those who claim they were lied to (somehow) and tricked into attending.

Keep in mind that 5-6 or so years ago Hastings was a top 30 school with great employment stats. It's still very reputible in CA, but the CA/SF legal market is absolutely abysmal.

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kapital98
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby kapital98 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:53 pm

onionskin wrote:I know UCH on the whole is a relatively large school, how does that bode in terms of the social experience? Is it easy to get lost/missed out/overlooked in the crowd by your peers and do you lose the intimacy of some smaller schools?

Or conversely does a larger class size help insulate you from the petty high school politics I keep reading about normally associated with some schools?


You get to know your section of 90 people pretty well. Almost everybody on a name basis depending on how much you talk to others. Cliques do emerge. It's kind of like high school. However, everyone seems nice and helpful. The school has a lot of events to help with socialization (like Beer on the Beach).

I was part of LEOP. Everyone gets to know each other really well in LEOP. Each section has approximately 15 LEOP members.

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lisavj
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Re: UC Hastings Students Taking Questions

Postby lisavj » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:57 pm

sfhaze wrote:Yet tuition also increased throughout this time at all UC law schools...


Because I looked at this somewhat intensely...

Stanford: $50,580 (http://www.law.stanford.edu/tuition/jd)

Berkeley in state: $48.067.50 (2,513 less expensive than SLS)
(vhttp://www.law.berkeley.edu/6943.htm)
Berkeley out of state: $52,018.50 (1,438 more expensive than SLS)

Hastings in state: $46,806 (3,774 less than SLS, 1,261 less than Berks in state)
Hastings out of state: 52,806 (2,226 more than SLS, 788 more than Berkeley OOS, much more than Berks in state)
(http://www.uchastings.edu/about/admin-o ... 2_2013.pdf)




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