UC Hastings Students Taking Questions Forum

[ilovesf]

You can also PM me. I was ~11% and struck out, so I might have different advice.

[blattblatt]

Hi all - Looking to get back to CA next summer. Was wondering if any Hastings students might be able to send me your CO's list of CA small/mid size firms? Thanks.

[bnghle234]

You can also PM me. I was ~11% and struck out, so I might have different advice.

.

[GuNnEr BiNgO]

Hello! Would anyone be willing to share some outlines with me for Remedies (Zamperini), Con Law II (Rao), or Civ Pro II (Wagstaffe)? It would be much appreciated!

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

You can also PM me. I was ~11% and struck out, so I might have different advice.

In the same boat, could you give me some advice?

Hey, I know that I'm not the poster you were reaching out for, but I just wanted to check...did you ever get an answer? I'd hate it if Hastings kids get left hanging - I know, I know, my alma mater pride is probably misplaced at a school like Hastings, but there it is.

[bnghle234]

You can also PM me. I was ~11% and struck out, so I might have different advice.

In the same boat, could you give me some advice?

Hey, I know that I'm not the poster you were reaching out for, but I just wanted to check...did you ever get an answer? I'd hate it if Hastings kids get left hanging - I know, I know, my alma mater pride is probably misplaced at a school like Hastings, but there it is.

Thanks for checking in! No, he/she left me hangin'! I PM'd too. Would've been great to hear a response. Do you have any words of wisdom?

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Thanks for checking in! No, he/she left me hangin'! I PM'd too. Would've been great to hear a response. Do you have any words of wisdom?

Sorry for the late reply, but BarBri has sucked up all of my time of late (they seem to stealthily up your workload from day-to-day until suddenly...well...anyway).

First, look very carefully at any bay area big law firms that are NOT coming to Hastings, and be sure to apply there outside of OCI (unless they are doing a resume collect! then apply through the resume collect!). When I did OCI in 2012, Ropes and Gray didn't show up, despite having a huge office in SV, and I know that several students who applied outside of OCI were at least given first-round interviews. Since Hastings limits your bids (30? 35? Something like that?), any time you can score an interview without using up a bid is totally worth it. Hastings still has a surprisingly good reputation in California, so with grades in the top 20-15% you can usually get someone to look at your application, even at firms that aren't coming to Hastings' OCI. (BTW, is it true they're calling it EIP this year? Why? To sound like Harvard? Lame.)

Second, make sure that you apply to as many offices as you are willing to work at. Friends of mine were told that they would be considered for the LA office (and subsequently got interviews), even when they didn't make the cut for SF at the exact same firm. The same goes for SF/SV. Many firms will let you list on your cover letter (or even by checking a box on Symplicity) if you want to be considered for other offices. ALWAYS SAY YES! Even if, right now, you cannot picture yourself working outside of the Bay Area, you will be so much happier in 2 years when you graduate with a secure job in LA than you will be if you hold out for SF and get nothing. I know the career office says something to this effect, but I also know that it's widely ignored, and in all honesty, it's probably the only good piece of advice they really give.

Third, when you get interviews (and with grades just outside the top 10%, you should get a good number), be sure to aggressively market yourself - you got the interview because of your grades, but you need more than those grades in order to pull a callback. It's a little depressing to think about, but with a class of ~300 students, that means the top 20% of the class is 60 people, and a firm can easily fill all its interview slots with those 60 kids. You need to be sure that you stand out once you are in there. Part of this means being a little aggressive - you will have friends that say "It felt like the interviewer didn't want to talk to me..." after the interview; that person made a mistake. You have 20 minutes to convince the interviewer that he/she DOES want to talk to you (EXCEPTION: if Hastings is still doing that stupid 25% lottery thing there may be legitimate interviewers that didn't want to meet with you, however, they will usually make that clear for objective reasons, e.g. "You seem nice, but your grades just don't match what we're looking for..." This is distinct from the interview with awkward silences and the dreaded "Do you have any questions for me?" - the latter interviewer had a chance and blew it).

Fourth, if AT ALL POSSIBLE, drop a name. I was shocked to learn the degree to which biglaw lawyers tend to blindly trust each other's judgment on hiring matters, even super junior people. As an example, during an interview I mentioned that I knew a 2L currently summering at the firm, and said that I was really excited because the 2L had made it sound like a great place to work. I found out later that the 2L, despite being a lowly summer associate, was contacted and asked about me; and I was later extended a callback. This doesn't have to be any big production, just literally something like "I'm in a club with [Student X], and he said you guys have a great culture, very collegial, with all the office doors open..." That's more than enough to pique their interest (i.e. it tells them you've actually spoken to someone who works there, have some idea about how they work, and it gives them a name to follow up with if they are interested). Obviously, this works better if you know an associate or a partner, but you'd be surprised how far just mentioning someone can get you.

Fifth, when bidding, check out firm websites and see if they actually hire Hastings grads (just because the firm is coming to OCI does NOT mean they're going to hire this year!). As an example, consider these two biglaw firms: Gibson Dunn and Cooley. Cooley currently has 31 attorneys working at various offices (SF, SV, San Diego, LA), all of whom graduated from Hastings. Among these 31 attorneys are recent graduates (e.g. Classes of 2011, 2012, 2013 - note: firms only list lawyers on their websites AFTER bar results, so 2013 is the most recent class you can see). Now, compare Cooley's attorneys with Gibson Dunn. Gibson Dunn currently only has 2 Hastings graduates working for it, one from the class of 2009, then other from the class of 1982. Importantly, the class of 2009 would have had OCI in 2007 - pre-recession. That means that Gibson Dunn has not hired anyone from Hastings post-recession. Now, comparing Cooley and Gibson, it's pretty clear that Cooley hires Hastings grads, and Gibson does not - with this information you can probably see that a higher bid on Cooley is probably more worthwhile than a higher bid on Gibson. MOST Law Firm websites will let you search their attorney directory by law school, so do your research! Find the firms that are coming to OCI AND hire a lot of Hastings grads and bid those highly!

This has been terribly long-winded, but I hope it's at least somewhat helpful. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

Best of luck!

[ilovesf]

I have replied to all the PMs. Im happy to take more.

I agree with OneMore, esp. about checking the websites to see if they hire Hastings grads. Even if you are top 10% and Gibson interviews you, you still basically have no chance. I personally would not waste a bid there. Also about the LA thing--I know people who ended up there with midlaw/biglaw jobs who did not initially plan on going, but their SA classes are bigger so there is a much better chance. So what if you hate LA, you will be too busy working in biglaw to spend that much time in the city anyway

ALSO, you can get interview spots with firms that people will eventually drop b/c they have too many call backs or something. I ended up with an interview for Gibson anyway (I did not end up going), but I got it when someone else dropped it. I probably picked up an extra 5 interviews this way.

[bnghle234]

Thanks so much ilovesf and OneMoreLawHopeful, your advice has been immensely helpful through this process (and thanks for taking time off the bar to check in!). I just got news I've been accepted to Boalt as a transfer, so I'll be headed there in the fall. Thanks again, I hope others are listening to your advice!

[kapital98]

Thanks so much ilovesf and OneMoreLawHopeful, your advice has been immensely helpful through this process (and thanks for taking time off the bar to check in!). I just got news I've been accepted to Boalt as a transfer, so I'll be headed there in the fall. Thanks again, I hope others are listening to your advice!

Congratulations on Boalt! That's great!

[scottiescruff]

Do you know when you all got your Hastings e-mail accounts activated?

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Do you know when you all got your Hastings e-mail accounts activated?

Just saw this Q (have been taking a break from TLS for barbri). According to my email address, I had mine active by 7/6/2011, but I cannot remember if that's just when I activated it, or if that's the earliest they would let us activate it.

I seem to remember that you had to register your email address in order to use webadvisor, and that you had to use webadvisor almost immediately upon being accepted (to send in final transcripts, health information, etc.)

But I might be remembering that wrong...?

Either way, by this time pre-1L my account had been activated.

[GunnerBingo]

Thought I'd drop another OCI question.

For Hastings grads/students who have been through OCI with competitive numbers: how competitive were screening inverwiews? Like, for outside the V15 and MoFo/Orrick, since screeners are pre-select, did you feel like you needed to sell yourself in your non-lottery screeners to get a CB? Or should the focus be on simply holding up a good convo, asking good questions, and giving decent responses?

I've heard different things: (1) if you get a pre-select screener that means the firm already likes you based on resume and are just idiot proofing vs. (2) You've passed the first hurdle, but then have to impress to get a CB.

Anyone have a take on this?

[ilovesf]

Thought I'd drop another OCI question.

For Hastings grads/students who have been through OCI with competitive numbers: how competitive were screening inverwiews? Like, for outside the V15 and MoFo/Orrick, since screeners are pre-select, did you feel like you needed to sell yourself in your non-lottery screeners to get a CB? Or should the focus be on simply holding up a good convo, asking good questions, and giving decent responses?

I've heard different things: (1) if you get a pre-select screener that means the firm already likes you based on resume and are just idiot proofing vs. (2) You've passed the first hurdle, but then have to impress to get a CB.

Anyone have a take on this?

A lot of firms only call back a couple of people, and they interview like 20. You can be dazzling and great and still not get a CB. Not that many firms call back tons of people from UCH. I don't think you can say the same thing for every firm, because there are even firms who go to OCI with no expectation of actually hiring people (see certain firm profiles w/ no Hastings grads). Also, every interview is different depending on the interviewer, duh. For some of my interviews, we talked about fantasy football, scifi movies, and traveling. I thought they went super well. Others, it was very much like a script where they had a set of questions to ask you and they just went through them (like Bingham).

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Thought I'd drop another OCI question.

For Hastings grads/students who have been through OCI with competitive numbers: how competitive were screening inverwiews? Like, for outside the V15 and MoFo/Orrick, since screeners are pre-select, did you feel like you needed to sell yourself in your non-lottery screeners to get a CB? Or should the focus be on simply holding up a good convo, asking good questions, and giving decent responses?

I've heard different things: (1) if you get a pre-select screener that means the firm already likes you based on resume and are just idiot proofing vs. (2) You've passed the first hurdle, but then have to impress to get a CB.

Anyone have a take on this?

In my experience (and those of friends I spoke with), the way firms approach your screener will fall into one of three categories:

1) Your resume shows something that is not only rare at Hastings, but universally rare (e.g. MA in hard science, with engineering work experience and "I want to do patents" stated openly on the resume). This coupled with top 10% grades at Hastings will tend to push your screener towards "idiot proofing" in all but the most selective firms. In these instances there is no guarantee that the firm could even find a comparable candidate at Stanford/UCB because there just aren't that many candidates with these credentials. Because it's Hastings you'll never get to full-on "idiot proofing" levels, but you'll probably have CBs and even offers before OCI screeners are done.

2) Your resume shows you to be competitive at Hastings (e.g. top 10%, maybe LR/Moot Court/Some kind of awards from 1L year), and the firm you are interviewing with is in the v100, then generally you will need to sell yourself. Even with the reduced class size, the top 10% at Hastings is still 30 people, and if the firm is conducting 20 interviews, then it's 20 interviews with people who are likely all very competitive grade-wise (because 20 interviews doesn't even cover the entire top 10% which would require 30 interviews). When you get in there, make sure to sell yourself by explaining why your experiences (1L Summer, Awards, Law Review, Moot Court, whatever) set you apart from the other 19 people who have essentially the same (if not better!) grades than you do.

3) Your resume shows you to be competitive at Hastings (again, top 10%, awards, LR, whatever), and the firm you are interviewing with falls OUTSIDE the v100 (and is NOT a boutique). In this instance you may still have to sell yourself, but not nearly as hard.

I know category 3 is going to be controversial, so let me provide an example. Sedwick LLP is a biglaw firm (~360 attorneys) that is in the NLJ250 but falls outside the v100. The breakdown of where associates at the SF office of sedgwick llp went to school is:
6 from Hastings, 5 from USF, 3 from Davis, 2 from Berkeley, 2 from Michigan, and 1 each from U Penn, Rutgers, BYU, U. Kentucky, Arizona State, U. New Mexico, Golden Gate, Santa Clara, U. Oregon, McGeorge, Southwestern, and UCLA.

Given a makeup like this, it seems likely that Sedgwick has to dip well below the t14 in order to meet their hiring needs. That means Hastings students don't have to worry about competition from t14s as much, but "merely" from students at peer schools. If you're top of the class at Hastings, you probably don't have to do too much in order to be more competitive than many other members of Sedgwick's applicant pool (i.e. USF, Golden Gate). It's NOT a shoe-in, but it's also not like Latham SF which can just fill any holes in their class with hires out of Berkeley.

I would generally put the "cut off" for this kind of situation at v100, but that's totally anecdotal, and it's unlikely there's any sort of hard and fast line. I have heard of Drinker Biddle (v93) giving Hastings kids a hard time in screeners, suggesting that even lower v100s still require some self-selling.

[GunnerBingo]

Thanks for the info guys! Really detailed, and it puts things in great perspective. I'm still confused though, if it really is SO competitive, I just don't understand the employment data overall. I'm looking at the class of 2013 data, and between 41-45 students ended up at biglaw firms/boutiques that pay around market rate plus 6 students ended up in federal clerkships. http://www.uchastings.edu/career-office ... istics.pdf And now maybe, some of these big law positions didn't come through OCI, maybe a 1L SA or international practice group, or just great networking, but I reckon the strong majority still would have.

I already know of 15 rising 2Ls who have officially transferred out. I assume the number will be more like 20-25 overall, with the majority of those students coming from the top 10% (assumption). So I'll say just to be safe that these numbers leave about 16 or so students left in my class from the top 10%. Obviously people will transfer in as well, but it's not as if Hastings recruits top top candidates as transfers. And even within that number of 16, maybe there will be 1 or 2 students who are diehard DA or public interest gunners and won't apply to firms.

So what I'm getting at is, it doesn't appear to me that it's a handful (relatively speaking) of students who are getting big law because they were able to continually separate themselves in interviews. I'd have to imagine if you are in the top 10% and can interview decently you could make it into that 40-50 student pool during OCI that gets this sort of employment outcome.

I know an offer is by no means guaranteed, and I'm going to do everything in my power to be as prepared as possible, I guess I'm just trying to create some sense of optimism before I begin the interviewing process in a few weeks.

[OneMoreLawHopeful]

Thanks for the info guys! Really detailed, and it puts things in great perspective. I'm still confused though, if it really is SO competitive, I just don't understand the employment data overall. I'm looking at the class of 2013 data, and between 41-45 students ended up at biglaw firms/boutiques that pay around market rate plus 6 students ended up in federal clerkships.

Okay, I see what you're saying, and I think I understand the confusion. Part of it was assumptions on my part, and part of it is assumptions on your part.

First, I might have understated what the "applicant pool" looks like. There are going to be some firms with grade cut-offs that are lower than the top 10% (top 20% was actually pretty common). They will prefer top-10%, but their limited interview schedule will reach students in the top 20%. When this happens you start to get tough match-ups where there's no way to know what direction the firm is going to go in.

For example, you have the Hastings student who is 10/300, and wants to do general litigation, but you also have the Hastings student who is 51/300, has a undergrad degree in chemical engineering, and wants to do patents. Now, the SF office at a hypothetical firm only has a tiny summer class size, so even if both of these candidates are objectively desirable, only 1 is going to get the offer and you need to whittle it down at some point. You can imagine that this also applies to other fields (e.g. the guy who is 51/300, but has an undergrad degree in finance, got an A in 1st year tax stat class, and has expressed an interest in joining the tax group). As a result, there is somewhat less overlap between "top 10%" and the ~12% that get biglaw jobs (45/373 for the class of 2013) than you might expect.

Looking at assumptions, I think they fall into two big categories:

You are assuming that Hastings doesn't recruit "top candidates" as transfers, but it's not that easy to characterize. A student I know who did quite well at OCI transferred from TJSL -> Hastings. At TJSL he was top 10%, which was good enough to transfer to Hastings, but not the top 2-3% that would have been required to transfer to a t14. But that still meant he showed up at Hastings OCI with a transcript loaded with A's, and with one or two exceptions (as in firms that showed him the door upon seeing TJSL on his old transcript), did well as a result. Now, someone like this isn't a "top candidate" in that he didn't have the stats necessary to get to Berkeley. But that doesn't mean his stats rendered him non-competitive at Hastings OCI.

For my part, I am assuming that you want some degree of choice among the law firms that come to OCI, and wouldn't be happy with just "a big firm job" so I probably make it sound more competitive than it is if you just want to end up employed. Some biglaw firms don't pay market; some missing it by a little ($145k; Reed Smith, Nixon Peabody) some missing it by a lot (like <$100k, to give a specific example, Lewis Brisbois, ~900 attorneys, was starting people between $80k-$90k in 2011, though I cannot find more recent numbers). More subjectively, I definitely walked out of callbacks knowing that I would never be happy at a particular office/firm, and praying that they weren't the only ones I got an offer from. In order to get out of this situation you need multiple offers, and the more offers you try to get, the more you need to sell yourself. 12% of the class may have gotten at least 1 biglaw/boutique offer, but the % of the class that got multiple offers is a good deal smaller.

You should also keep in mind that the 12% figure is going to include people who took jobs many people probably didn't apply for. For example, a firm like Fragomen Del Rey is biglaw (~250 attorneys), but they ONLY do immigration work and thus look for specialized candidates (even a firm like Quinn, ~650 attorneys, falls into this category - they only do litigation, so students interested in corporate work take themselves out of the running). Likewise, among the 12% will be students who took jobs in LA and Sacramento (even though most Hastings students are only shooting for SF/SV). So, while 12% reflects the number that got at least one job offer at some kind of practice, somewhere, with >100 attorneys, the number that got a job in the SF/SV office of a biglaw, full-service, market-paying firm is probably a lot smaller.

I hope this clears up the confusion somewhat - or at least doesn't make it worse...

Also, from an optimism standpoint, I do think yo are correct; you will likely get some job, and ANY job is better than graduating unemployed. Keep that in mind throughout and you'll be fine.

[Cal Trask]

re: the tower gym (aagin)

can I use my student ID to get people into the gym, sort of in the same way one can sign somebody into the tower as a guest?

[hiima3L]

re: the tower gym (aagin)

can I use my student ID to get people into the gym, sort of in the same way one can sign somebody into the tower as a guest?

No. You're not allowed to have guests in the gym.

But I've never heard of that being enforced. Beward Ilya, though...

[SFSpartan]

First, let me thank all of you who provided me with advice earlier this summer re: grades, OCI, and dropping out. Could now use your advice on two additional points:

1. Talking to my current firm about staying- I ended up getting a summer job with a midlaw firm, and I love it. I'm getting a great deal of substantive experience doing transactional work, and have generally had good feedback on my assignments. However, a couple contracts I drafted had individual sections that were misnumbered, and I'm worried about getting no-offered because of this. When I interviewed, they really sold the fact that they like to have Law Clerks/SAs stay on, and generally hire them as Associates. I haven't had a conversation with them yet about coming back next summer, and am wondering how to approach this.

2. OCI & My Current Firm- OCI schedules came out today, and I have what I feel are a decent number of interviews (6) for my grades (Top 25%). Wondering how to inform current firm when I will be out of office for multiple hours at a time for multiple days next week.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

[hiima3L]

First, let me thank all of you who provided me with advice earlier this summer re: grades, OCI, and dropping out. Could now use your advice on two additional points:

1. Talking to my current firm about staying- I ended up getting a summer job with a midlaw firm, and I love it. I'm getting a great deal of substantive experience doing transactional work, and have generally had good feedback on my assignments. However, a couple contracts I drafted had individual sections that were misnumbered, and I'm worried about getting no-offered because of this. When I interviewed, they really sold the fact that they like to have Law Clerks/SAs stay on, and generally hire them as Associates. I haven't had a conversation with them yet about coming back next summer, and am wondering how to approach this.

2. OCI & My Current Firm- OCI schedules came out today, and I have what I feel are a decent number of interviews (6) for my grades (Top 25%). Wondering how to inform current firm when I will be out of office for multiple hours at a time for multiple days next week.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Oh god, misnumbering. You're f'd. Pack your bags.

I'm kidding. That's not a big deal. I can't imagine anyone but the most uptight, awful people (who you wouldn't want to work for anyway) would not want to hire someone for a minor typo like that. You have to demonstrate a total lack of attn to detail for it to really matter, from what I've gathered.

Re: staying on. You have to be direct. There is absolutely nothing wrong with (tactfully and appropriately) asking whether staying on next summer is a possibility. Everyone knows law students are desperate for jobs right now and employers generally like hiring people they already know. Just approach someone who you think you could talk to about it. And be direct--make it clear that you want to work there after graduation and therefore want to come back next summer. This is perfectly acceptable.

Re: interviews. Tell them you're doing OCI and would like the time off for X, Y, and Z times. In fact, you could (and IMO should) bring both of these things up in one talk. It would be really easy to say "Hey, I'm doing OCI [like every other 2L] and was hoping I could get this time off for interviews. BTW, I've been really happy here this summer and was curious about whether coming back next summer would be possible. I was told during my interview that the firm likes hiring law clerks, and I can imagine myself here after graduation so I was wondering if that would be a possibility."

[a male human]

God I just got a call from a fundraising firm trying to get donations out of me for Hastings. Number was 415-565-4679 in case you want to watch out for it.

Not only was it impersonal, Hastings seems to be doing OK if it can outsource donation collection. Reminds me of the donation form disguised as a holiday card they sent me recently (opened the card to see a donation form staring at me with a PS happy new year at the back).

She started by asking why I chose to go to Hastings (close to home, scholly, and rankings were actually decent back in 2009) and which professors I liked most. Told me how others have mentioned the professors I just told her about. Priming me with memories I don't really care for. Psychological tricks won't work on me!

Then she praises how the school gears up students from day 1 and a bunch of bullshit. Asks for $35 per semester (?).

Told her "I would have to say no." Few seconds of silence before she says, "W-well a lot of your alumni have contributed! How about half the amount?"

Then I told her about how Hastings has solicited me rather often and that the school still owes me money, that I don't feel comfortable donating anything at this time when they haven't honored an agreement.

At least she was nice and didn't try to probe further. They will never get a penny from me. For fuck's sake they didn't even know I graduated and last year sent me an invitation to apply to the JD program!

[hiima3L]

God I just got a call from a fundraising firm trying to get donations out of me for Hastings. Number was 415-565-4679 in case you want to watch out for it.

Not only was it impersonal, Hastings seems to be doing OK if it can outsource donation collection. Reminds me of the donation form disguised as a holiday card they sent me recently (opened the card to see a donation form staring at me with a PS happy new year at the back).

She started by asking why I chose to go to Hastings (close to home, scholly, and rankings were actually decent back in 2009) and which professors I liked most. Told me how others have mentioned the professors I just told her about. Priming me with memories I don't really care for. Psychological tricks won't work on me!

Then she praises how the school gears up students from day 1 and a bunch of bullshit. Asks for $35 per semester (?).

Told her "I would have to say no." Few seconds of silence before she says, "W-well a lot of your alumni have contributed! How about half the amount?"

Then I told her about how Hastings has solicited me rather often and that the school still owes me money, that I don't feel comfortable donating anything at this time when they haven't honored an agreement.

At least she was nice and didn't try to probe further. They will never get a penny from me. For fuck's sake they didn't even know I graduated and last year sent me an invitation to apply to the JD program!

I got FIVE solicitations over the holidays to make a "holiday gift." They finally seem to have gotten the message to not call me because I will not give $ and I have asked repeatedly for them to stop calling me (especially since they seem to call between 7-9PM).

Also, they seem to have/allow students to use their cell phones to make the cold calls. I got a few non-415 numbers.

At least they don't ask for $1,000 like my UG does. But again that just makes me laugh and hang up.

[A.Taarabt7]

man, hasttings is like the red headed step child

[A.Taarabt7]

.