2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

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headandshoulderos
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby headandshoulderos » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:31 pm

Grizz wrote:
IAFG wrote:
nouseforaname123 wrote:
Grizz wrote:If you do get a biglaw 2L summer jerb, enjoy survivors' guilt. Not even joking.


+1

The vast majority of 0L's are incapable of grasping just how true this is.

I think this actually explains some of the more bitter threads around here. People want to believe they're employed because they're more special, more hard-working, more personable, more worthy. No one wants to believe that it might be largely random.

That's basically it right there. If I had to try to put it into words for 1Ls, it's this:

You come in to 1L, and the people that do best have an affinity for picking up on a type of test that doesn't resemble legal practice on subjects that don't resemble anything you'll see in practice either. Hard work is neither necessary nor sufficient to do well. Whether you did well or not is largely out of your control, thanks to the curve. The results from these tests will largely determine one's success at OCI, but when you get the results, they often seem totally random.

Then you get into OCI. And if you're in a system with lottery, it's gonna feel random what firms you get. Some people get a lot, some people don't. If it's preselect, then interviews you get are based off 1L grades (which will seem random). You go into interviews, and whether you click with screening interviewers sometimes is largely a function of chance, unless you truly are the type of person who has a big personality. Sometimes you don't click and you get the CB anyway. Callbacks are more of a same. Because there are so many applicants, the process is largely out of your hands, and you'll have no idea why you get picked over someone else. People who did better than you will strike out, people who did worse than you will get offers. Decisions are based on "fit," and it's almost impossible to know what that's like before walking in the room. All the while you're stressed and feel sorta helpless about this situation that is entirely out of control.

So at the end, you have an offer, and sometimes, you have no idea why. Sure, you have a good personality, but there are plenty of people with awesome personalities with no offers. Sure you may have grades, but what are those really based on anyway? Getting an offer isn't validating, it leaves you wondering, even if just a little bit, why you deserved it over anyone else.



I feel these thoughts, but they are vastly overshadowed by my fear of No-Offer. And my firm gave 90%+ offers last year. Maybe if I end up with a full time offer in hand, I will have more survivor's guilt. So, the stress and nerves never really go away.

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Grizz
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:32 pm

Yeah bro, it's tough to remember that we're not quite out of the woods just yet.

headandshoulderos
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby headandshoulderos » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:32 pm

chalkbreath512 wrote:
cattleprod wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:ITE, I'm not sure that going to law school because you want to be a lawyer is much different from heading to LA because you want to be an actor: life dream or not, be prepared to fail hard.


"be prepared to fail hard"

And being a lawyer on the bottom of the profession is quite similar to being an actress at the bottom of the profession.
Doc review lawyers have much in common with porn actresses.

Once you do porn, it is almost impossible to go mainstream as an actress.
Once you do doc review, it is almost impossible to go mainstream as a lawyer.

The numbers should scare anyone away from trying to be a lawyer.
There is no way to justify it financially these days with over half of lawyers washing out of the profession within 5 years of graduation.



Can someone substantiate the claims that support the idea of numbers that "should scare anyone". I'm not necessarily doubting that fact that the post-law school employment climate is as bleak as purported to be it would just be interesting to be dealing with some real statistics. I'm planning to head to law school under the assumption that I wont necessarily be practicing as a lawyer out of law school but be one who is trained in policy and law and therefore a viable candidate for many employment opportunities.


ya, that's even worse than going to law school to be a lawyer.

hawkeye22
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby hawkeye22 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:50 pm

sebastian0622 wrote:Not really. Iowa placed, I think, 12% in NLJ 250 in recent years. It's unlikely that 30+ current Iowa 3L's have NLJ250 jobs, and numbers released in a year or two will bear that out. I'm a 2L at Iowa, and I know a whopping handful of people who have 2L SA's in biglaw lined up. I'd say roughly 20% have something lined up for next summer that could be classified as decent to good. Half have NOTHING lined up for next summer yet at all. Now, I don't know the entire class, but the people I hang out with tend to be doing pretty well academically (almost all are on a journal, most on LR, and from the little we've mentioned grades they do very well). Even they are having a really hard time. One got Chicago biglaw in OCI, another scrounged together an offer through hustling. I'd say unless a ton of people pick up jobs in 3L (unlikely), our class (2013) won't come anywhere near 25% biglaw placement. More like 10-15%, which is what past numbers indicate as well.

I have a couple offers from small firms and even I feel guilty bringing up such modest (in terms of prestige) offers. These are the types of job I want, but most INCOMING law students probably wouldn't really get excited about them. But a lot of CURRENT law students would love to have them simply because they are legitimate jobs practicing law paying enough to service loans. That's basically the holy grail, and probably 70% of the class will still be looking for it at graduation.


It will be interesting to see how the stats come out this year. Keep in mind that some people (albeit probably not many) with Biglaw lined up do not report employment information. NLJ 250 or not, 30 people with market-paying jobs isn't bad, especially considering that around 10 are at v100's.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:04 pm

Grizz wrote:
chalkbreath512 wrote:I'm planning to head to law school under the assumption that I wont necessarily be practicing as a lawyer out of law school but be one who is trained in policy and law and therefore a viable candidate for many employment opportunities.

Law school does not train you well for the bolded, and it doesn't help getting nonlegal jobs in the underlined (at least right out of school).


+1. As far as I can tell, law school trains you to do nothing but survive in some Hellish combination of Lord of the Flies and Thunderdome. And if it isn't an efficient way to get legal jobs, it sure isn't an efficient way to get nonlegal jobs.

hawkeye22
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby hawkeye22 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:08 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
Grizz wrote:
chalkbreath512 wrote:I'm planning to head to law school under the assumption that I wont necessarily be practicing as a lawyer out of law school but be one who is trained in policy and law and therefore a viable candidate for many employment opportunities.

Law school does not train you well for the bolded, and it doesn't help getting nonlegal jobs in the underlined (at least right out of school).


+1. As far as I can tell, law school trains you to do nothing but survive in some Hellish combination of Lord of the Flies and Thunderdome. And if it isn't an efficient way to get legal jobs, it sure isn't an efficient way to get nonlegal jobs.


All of those people that talk about how versatile a law degree is neglect to tell you that this is only true after you get five years of relevant legal experience.

sebastian0622
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby sebastian0622 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:48 am

I'd also tell everyone applying to enter in 2012 to read this article on contingent scholarships:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/busin ... wanted=all

cattleprod
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby cattleprod » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:54 pm

chalkbreath512 wrote:Can someone substantiate the claims that support the idea of numbers that "should scare anyone". I'm not necessarily doubting that fact that the post-law school employment climate is as bleak as purported to be it would just be interesting to be dealing with some real statistics. I'm planning to head to law school under the assumption that I wont necessarily be practicing as a lawyer out of law school but be one who is trained in policy and law and therefore a viable candidate for many employment opportunities.


A law degree practically excludes you from other employment opportunities. Everyone interviewing you will see the JD and assume that you are going to jump as soon as you find a lawyer job. If you really want a non-JD job, you will have to leave it off of your resume and come up with a viable excuse for what you were doing those 3 years.

You want the numbers that should scare anyone? A law school professor lays it out today in his blog.
Do a google search for "Inside The Law School Scam".
TLS Forums blocks links to the website directly.

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zarathustra25
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby zarathustra25 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:07 am

I have several questions, all of which I hope are relevant here. These are all sincere, so I apologize if they come off as/end up being snarky in tone or very naïve. I don’t expect anyone to take the time to answer all of them, but hopefully at least a couple will be answered:

First, and most importantly to me, could someone in a longer and more detailed post (I enjoy reading these) explain what exactly is meant by sentences like, "serious flaws that have existed for some time are now finally having a negative impact on the profession" and "legal employment is undergoing a structural change from which it will never rebound." I have seen phrases similar to this pretty much everywhere, but no one ever really goes into enough detail for me to understand what this means. What is the legal employment structure, what has been so wrong with it, and why are those problems finally having serious impacts? I am not questioning these statements, just honestly stating that I do not yet know exactly what they mean in the sense more specific than what I’d picked up in my undergrad law courses.

Second, when a poster makes a complaint about the soul-crushing and lowly work of document review to what exactly are they referring? I am an intern in Consumer Protection here, and what I do for the AG is what I would consider reviewing documents. I look through documents, like auto financing jackets, and find the information pertinent to the case like illegal interest rates or other fees. I find this work to be rather boring and tedious, but no more so than other jobs that I have had. Is the document review referred to in this forum—that which an actual law graduate would do—much worse than this and how does it differ? Are most of these positions hourly positions? Are they mainly government or private or both? How much is the pay and is it usually hourly, rather than salaried? What would the hours typically be? I know that the AG’s office is only open 8 – 5, which I could handle. How much would this work pay in a market, say, in the Midwest region, from a school like Iowa or Wisconsin? Are there options to leave these sorts of jobs with experience and enter something more interesting, or are they essentially dead-ends?

Third, I have to touch on this topic because it is actually pretty important to me if I am going to spend my life in the profession. How much truth is there to the statement that the profession is flooded with “douchebags?” I have had two separate and limited experiences with this so far. I have found that both on the internet and in my undergraduate classes, there seems to be a striking number of immature and simply unhappy individuals. I can say that I certainly see more classroom competition and mean-spirited arguments in my Law/Politics courses than in the rhetoric department. On the internet, I have found a lot of posters who honestly sound like children, using words like “lulz” often and attacking benign posters and speaking in a forum with them is like walking on broken glass. I find it is not so bad here, but when I wandered over to the autoadmit.com forums I was simply appalled and felt like I had walked into a classroom of unruly 8th graders. As far as that forum goes, is there some collective joke I am missing or is this seriously a group of prospective and current law students? This leads me to my more positive experience with lawyers, which is the experience I have had outside of the classroom and internet. At my internship, we have state prosecutors, consumer protection investigators, and the attorney general and assistant AG’s. Everyone in the office is extremely kind to me, and this is not only because I am an intern. I have had plenty of opportunities to overhear their conversations with each other and this seems equally friendly. Is it simply that many law students are still immature, or have I just had one exceptional experience with the profession where I am working now?

Fourth, when it comes to interviews, how important is it to be outgoing and sociable? I happen to be a terrible interviewer and find I end up staring at the interviewer in awkward silences and screwing up simple questions. I understand one must be personable in a client-based profession, and when I actually do get a job I am always actually known for my easy-going friendliness. Is this one of those professions where interview skills pretty much will determine whether or not you are given a call-back, or can good grades and previous recommendations offset this a bit? I understand it’s an area I can and will work on, but I am curious in case I fail at that. Related to this, how important is it exactly to get a job offer immediately at or even before graduation? If one does not get an offer and has to spend a year searching, do the chances of entering what most of us would consider meaningful work drop off substantially or is it something that can be overcome with hard work in the job search?

Fifth, and a question I don’t think I see addressed often is, what is the work like at a firm if you do land a great position at OCI? Due to competition and the professional setting, is the discipline strict or are you basically left alone if you are doing your job well, though perhaps occasionally sleep in or something minor like that; I know this sounds like a ridiculous question, but there it is. If one does get fired, or if they get laid off, does this significantly hurt his or her chances of finding another job? Will they be blackballed permanently from good positions?
Sixth, a law school related question, regards the exams I have often read about. It’s noted that they are not like the sort of exam anyone could really anticipate going in and I have often heard the remarks put forward here about how they can sometimes seem random in terms of grading. Is there any way that one of you could try to describe what sort of exams I will be in for in my 1L and what makes them more difficult than what I am used to?

Then finally, just a comment and related question: I feel like there is too much emphasis on this board implying that one needs to know what they want to do prior to going into law school and too much of an assumption that intelligent undergrads are choosing this profession because they feel it will be like Law and Order or the Practice. It is my assumption, key word, that a good amount, if not the majority, of entering students will end up taking a different path than expected after experiencing law school and I remember reading a post by Ken that stated he changed his mind after his first or second year experiences in law school. Is it misguided to believe that one can enter law school without a solid idea of what sort of law they would like to practice, in the hopes that they will discover what works best for them as they progress?

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chimp
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby chimp » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:23 am

Image

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IAFG
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:25 am

zarathustra25 wrote:Third, I have to touch on this topic because it is actually pretty important to me if I am going to spend my life in the profession. How much truth is there to the statement that the profession is flooded with “douchebags?” I have had two separate and limited experiences with this so far. I have found that both on the internet and in my undergraduate classes, there seems to be a striking number of immature and simply unhappy individuals. I can say that I certainly see more classroom competition and mean-spirited arguments in my Law/Politics courses than in the rhetoric department. On the internet, I have found a lot of posters who honestly sound like children, using words like “lulz” often and attacking benign posters and speaking in a forum with them is like walking on broken glass. I find it is not so bad here, but when I wandered over to the autoadmit.com forums I was simply appalled and felt like I had walked into a classroom of unruly 8th graders. As far as that forum goes, is there some collective joke I am missing or is this seriously a group of prospective and current law students? This leads me to my more positive experience with lawyers, which is the experience I have had outside of the classroom and internet. At my internship, we have state prosecutors, consumer protection investigators, and the attorney general and assistant AG’s. Everyone in the office is extremely kind to me, and this is not only because I am an intern. I have had plenty of opportunities to overhear their conversations with each other and this seems equally friendly. Is it simply that many law students are still immature, or have I just had one exceptional experience with the profession where I am working now?

K well I am not going to get into your other questions because I am lazy/studying, but I will just say that I think that amongst the population of people who are attracted to TLS/xoxo/top law schools/biglaw, there are a disproportionate number insecure, prestige-whoring, small-penised assholes. It sounds like your experiences have been removed from firm life, so maybe you haven't seen that "type" of lawyer.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby traehekat » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:06 am

headandshoulderos wrote:Looking back, I wish I had realized that it's a decision with the power to utterly ruin your life.


This is pretty much exactly what I would say. Just understand that it is not every day that you make what could be the worst decision of your life. If you can grasp that part of it, then I have faith that you will probably do your homework on what you would be getting yourself into. From there it's your call whether or not to go, but at least it will be fully informed decision.

Also, I might add that this has (for now) turned out to be a great thread and should be required reading for anyone considering law school. I have to give a little credit to MTal for restraining himself, but I suspect he has only done so because he is satisfied with the general response. :P

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby headandshoulderos » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:38 am

that really long series of questions above can all be answered with a little research of the articles describing the systemic problems with the legal industry. even though some of us might not be busting our ass for finals as much as during 1L there is no chance in hell i'm digging through that pile of 0L questions

headandshoulderos
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby headandshoulderos » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:40 am

traehekat wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:Looking back, I wish I had realized that it's a decision with the power to utterly ruin your life.


This is pretty much exactly what I would say. Just understand that it is not every day that you make what could be the worst decision of your life. If you can grasp that part of it, then I have faith that you will probably do your homework on what you would be getting yourself into. From there it's your call whether or not to go, but at least it will be fully informed decision.

Also, I might add that this has (for now) turned out to be a great thread and should be required reading for anyone considering law school. I have to give a little credit to MTal for restraining himself, but I suspect he has only done so because he is satisfied with the general response. :P


i have friends who've dropped out of UG, gone back, quit jobs, gotten fired from jobs, etc. all of those things you can recover from, but if you go to law school, there's a few key windows of time (like a couple weeks of finals, a couple weeks of interviews) that will determine if not the rest of your life, then at least the next 15-25 years. it's fucking crazy to think about and really hard to grasp until you go through it. it's a bone shaking experience even if you end up with a job.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby johansantana21 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:43 am

IAFG wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:Also, I'm not certain about the Cornell being as good as NYU or Penn thing. It strikes me as pretty egregious Cornell trolling.

Oh God, this shit again. No, those schools don't have identical placement. But they're all within a few percentage points of each other. For some reason I have yet to understand, TLSers love to focus on the differences without noticing that the placement power within CCN, MVPB, and DCN is pretty equivalent.


This. You can't honestly tell me MVPB outplaces DCN substantially.

I will tip my hat to CC though.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:02 am

zarathustra25 wrote:Second, when a poster makes a complaint about the soul-crushing and lowly work of document review to what exactly are they referring?

Read this thread.

zarathustra25 wrote:Is there any way that one of you could try to describe what sort of exams I will be in for in my 1L and what makes them more difficult than what I am used to?

Read this post.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby BeenDidThat » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:23 am

headandshoulderos wrote:
traehekat wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:Looking back, I wish I had realized that it's a decision with the power to utterly ruin your life.


This is pretty much exactly what I would say. Just understand that it is not every day that you make what could be the worst decision of your life. If you can grasp that part of it, then I have faith that you will probably do your homework on what you would be getting yourself into. From there it's your call whether or not to go, but at least it will be fully informed decision.

Also, I might add that this has (for now) turned out to be a great thread and should be required reading for anyone considering law school. I have to give a little credit to MTal for restraining himself, but I suspect he has only done so because he is satisfied with the general response. :P


i have friends who've dropped out of UG, gone back, quit jobs, gotten fired from jobs, etc. all of those things you can recover from, but if you go to law school, there's a few key windows of time (like a couple weeks of finals, a couple weeks of interviews) that will determine if not the rest of your life, then at least the next 15-25 years. it's fucking crazy to think about and really hard to grasp until you go through it. it's a bone shaking experience even if you end up with a job.


This is quite true, and it's why having the proverbial nuts of a silverback is an important part of doing well in lawlskool.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby sebastian0622 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:45 am

zarathustra25 wrote:I have several questions, all of which I hope are relevant here. These are all sincere, so I apologize if they come off as/end up being snarky in tone or very naïve. I don’t expect anyone to take the time to answer all of them, but hopefully at least a couple will be answered:

First, and most importantly to me, could someone in a longer and more detailed post (I enjoy reading these) explain what exactly is meant by sentences like, "serious flaws that have existed for some time are now finally having a negative impact on the profession" and "legal employment is undergoing a structural change from which it will never rebound." I have seen phrases similar to this pretty much everywhere, but no one ever really goes into enough detail for me to understand what this means. What is the legal employment structure, what has been so wrong with it, and why are those problems finally having serious impacts? I am not questioning these statements, just honestly stating that I do not yet know exactly what they mean in the sense more specific than what I’d picked up in my undergrad law courses.

Second, when a poster makes a complaint about the soul-crushing and lowly work of document review to what exactly are they referring? I am an intern in Consumer Protection here, and what I do for the AG is what I would consider reviewing documents. I look through documents, like auto financing jackets, and find the information pertinent to the case like illegal interest rates or other fees. I find this work to be rather boring and tedious, but no more so than other jobs that I have had. Is the document review referred to in this forum—that which an actual law graduate would do—much worse than this and how does it differ? Are most of these positions hourly positions? Are they mainly government or private or both? How much is the pay and is it usually hourly, rather than salaried? What would the hours typically be? I know that the AG’s office is only open 8 – 5, which I could handle. How much would this work pay in a market, say, in the Midwest region, from a school like Iowa or Wisconsin? Are there options to leave these sorts of jobs with experience and enter something more interesting, or are they essentially dead-ends?

Third, I have to touch on this topic because it is actually pretty important to me if I am going to spend my life in the profession. How much truth is there to the statement that the profession is flooded with “douchebags?” I have had two separate and limited experiences with this so far. I have found that both on the internet and in my undergraduate classes, there seems to be a striking number of immature and simply unhappy individuals. I can say that I certainly see more classroom competition and mean-spirited arguments in my Law/Politics courses than in the rhetoric department. On the internet, I have found a lot of posters who honestly sound like children, using words like “lulz” often and attacking benign posters and speaking in a forum with them is like walking on broken glass. I find it is not so bad here, but when I wandered over to the autoadmit.com forums I was simply appalled and felt like I had walked into a classroom of unruly 8th graders. As far as that forum goes, is there some collective joke I am missing or is this seriously a group of prospective and current law students? This leads me to my more positive experience with lawyers, which is the experience I have had outside of the classroom and internet. At my internship, we have state prosecutors, consumer protection investigators, and the attorney general and assistant AG’s. Everyone in the office is extremely kind to me, and this is not only because I am an intern. I have had plenty of opportunities to overhear their conversations with each other and this seems equally friendly. Is it simply that many law students are still immature, or have I just had one exceptional experience with the profession where I am working now?

Fourth, when it comes to interviews, how important is it to be outgoing and sociable? I happen to be a terrible interviewer and find I end up staring at the interviewer in awkward silences and screwing up simple questions. I understand one must be personable in a client-based profession, and when I actually do get a job I am always actually known for my easy-going friendliness. Is this one of those professions where interview skills pretty much will determine whether or not you are given a call-back, or can good grades and previous recommendations offset this a bit? I understand it’s an area I can and will work on, but I am curious in case I fail at that. Related to this, how important is it exactly to get a job offer immediately at or even before graduation? If one does not get an offer and has to spend a year searching, do the chances of entering what most of us would consider meaningful work drop off substantially or is it something that can be overcome with hard work in the job search?

Fifth, and a question I don’t think I see addressed often is, what is the work like at a firm if you do land a great position at OCI? Due to competition and the professional setting, is the discipline strict or are you basically left alone if you are doing your job well, though perhaps occasionally sleep in or something minor like that; I know this sounds like a ridiculous question, but there it is. If one does get fired, or if they get laid off, does this significantly hurt his or her chances of finding another job? Will they be blackballed permanently from good positions?
Sixth, a law school related question, regards the exams I have often read about. It’s noted that they are not like the sort of exam anyone could really anticipate going in and I have often heard the remarks put forward here about how they can sometimes seem random in terms of grading. Is there any way that one of you could try to describe what sort of exams I will be in for in my 1L and what makes them more difficult than what I am used to?

Then finally, just a comment and related question: I feel like there is too much emphasis on this board implying that one needs to know what they want to do prior to going into law school and too much of an assumption that intelligent undergrads are choosing this profession because they feel it will be like Law and Order or the Practice. It is my assumption, key word, that a good amount, if not the majority, of entering students will end up taking a different path than expected after experiencing law school and I remember reading a post by Ken that stated he changed his mind after his first or second year experiences in law school. Is it misguided to believe that one can enter law school without a solid idea of what sort of law they would like to practice, in the hopes that they will discover what works best for them as they progress?


#1 and #2: a few attempts at forum and google searches are likely to answer these for you

#3: yes, there are a ton of douchebags in law school and the legal field. Your experience was probably atypical and a result of the particular place you worked. Mid- and biglaw are different.

#4: Interview skills and interpersonal skills are extremely (no hyperbole) important.

#5: You're not necessarily micromanaged, but the consequences of fucking up are huge. A big firm won't hold your hand, they'll just push you out the door when the time is right for them to do so.

#6: There are a lot of answers to this. Basically, as an example of a test structure: you will be asked a few specific questions on the test that may cover less than 10% of the total course material. There might be one longer essay on a test worth 50% of the total test grade, and the majority of that question might be answered by a concept that you covered for one day and read two cases on.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby soj » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:57 pm

This thread gave me lots to think about. Thank you.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby zarathustra25 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:30 pm

Sebastian and Harlan: Thanks for the responses, they were helpful.
I also enjoyed the animated GIF after my post.
As for the Google search about the structure of the law...not much has really explained "the flawed structure of legal employment," even after viewing a good amount of useless doom and gloom articles with little substance from media outlets, and trolling the abovethelaw archives. It has given me a good sense of why law school for most people is a waste of money, though.

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IAFG
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby IAFG » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:37 pm

zarathustra25 wrote:Sebastian and Harlan: Thanks for the responses, they were helpful.
I also enjoyed the animated GIF after my post.
As for the Google search about the structure of the law...not much has really explained "the flawed structure of legal employment," even after viewing a good amount of useless doom and gloom articles with little substance from media outlets, and trolling the abovethelaw archives. It has given me a good sense of why law school for most people is a waste of money, though.

The prominent concerns are, in my mind:
1) Biglaw billing schemes getting pushback from clients
2) the "Cravath" model of legal hiring
3) the bimodal nature of first-year salaries.

I think the resources you named have explained all three of these pretty well. Help me understand what data you feel like you're still missing?

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby als2011 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:41 pm

I am grateful that someone earlier noted the mock set up that TLS has regarding Professor Campos' Blog, "Inside the Law School Scam" (if you try and post a link to his website, it redirects you to a blog antithetical to Campos' called "Law School is the best Decision I Ever Made"). I had no idea that TLS forums didn't allow individuals to post links to Professor Campos' site directly. It is a shame, because one would hope that a forum such as this, with its mission being to provide aspiring and current law students with the most up-to-date and important information regarding the state of the legal economy and legal education is not allowing its users to post links to, what I believe to be, one of the most thoughtful and revealing legal blogs on the web.

I would strongly advise anyone seeking to attend law school today to thoroughly read Campos' blog and the comments of the various posters on the site (granted they do get a little side tracked). Consider it doing your homework, which is something that far too many aspiring law students do far too little of. Really dig into the facts about the employment numbers of your school, the realities of legal employment, do some excel spreadsheets about the costs of attendance, interest rates, the amount its going to cost you on a monthly basis to payback your loans. Don't forget to calculate your lost opportunity costs as well.

A great place to start would be with Campos' blog. Search for "Inside the Law School Scam" if you want to read more. Consider it just one resource among many as you weigh your options in considering law school.

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zarathustra25
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby zarathustra25 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:19 pm

IAFG wrote:
zarathustra25 wrote:Sebastian and Harlan: Thanks for the responses, they were helpful.
I also enjoyed the animated GIF after my post.
As for the Google search about the structure of the law...not much has really explained "the flawed structure of legal employment," even after viewing a good amount of useless doom and gloom articles with little substance from media outlets, and trolling the abovethelaw archives. It has given me a good sense of why law school for most people is a waste of money, though.

The prominent concerns are, in my mind:
1) Biglaw billing schemes getting pushback from clients
2) the "Cravath" model of legal hiring
3) the bimodal nature of first-year salaries.

I think the resources you named have explained all three of these pretty well. Help me understand what data you feel like you're still missing?


The Bimodal bit is obvious, even without much research.

However, the Cravath model is not something I've come across, probably because I've never heard of it and therefore never searched for it. The billing schemes are also something I'm not familiar with, though I've read some stories on ATL that cite "blended-billing" where associates get paid less, partners more, and it's all blended to avoid changes in that structure. In general, it seems that at big firms partners are able to dump shit on associates, but that was kind of something I was expecting to see. At most jobs I have had, those being paid more routinely shaft those being paid less and I don't see this as avoidable for most people.

sebastian0622
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby sebastian0622 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:16 pm

Oh yeah, and every law student, prospective law student, lawyer, and spouse of a law student or lawyer should read this:

--LinkRemoved--

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chimp
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby chimp » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:57 pm

sebastian0622 wrote:Oh yeah, and every law student, prospective law student, lawyer, and spouse of a law student or lawyer should read this:

--LinkRemoved--


This was actually really interesting.




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