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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:29 pm 
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mrloblaw wrote:
IAFG wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:
Also, I'm not certain about the Cornell being as good as NYU or Penn thing. It strikes me as pretty egregious Cornell trolling.

Oh God, this shit again. No, those schools don't have identical placement. But they're all within a few percentage points of each other. For some reason I have yet to understand, TLSers love to focus on the differences without noticing that the placement power within CCN, MVPB, and DCN is pretty equivalent.


Probably because, ITE, a few percentage points is the difference between dozens of students per school either hitting the biglaw jackpot or waiting tables with the kids from Cooley.

Granted, this is from an NYU 2L who will in a year be waiting tables with the kids from Cooley.

But is the difference even statistically significant?


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:47 pm 
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hawkeye22 wrote:
I think the doom and gloom in this thread is a bit hyperbolic. There are obviously tons of people striking out and the legal market is bad, but at Iowa a good 20-25% of people got Big Law. I assume things are considerably better at the T14.


Ya and 70-80% are strait fucked. At the T14, it's more like 30-40%. That's a shitload of people bro. Don't go. Do half of medical students graduate to become doctor's secretaries? If they did, would you go to medical school. You have to be insane or just extremely confident/arrogant to go to law school right now. I've seen it destroy people.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:53 pm 
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IAFG wrote:
But is the difference even statistically significant?


I hope you aren't asking a simple waiter to run a Pearson's Chi-Squared.

What I can do is bring you another glass of water.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:02 pm 
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InGoodFaith wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Second, and more importantly, do not go to law school unless you have a strong financial support structure. Trust me, I understand that that statement is ambiguous and you are probably tired of the ambiguity fed to you by law schools. So to place that statement in practical context: do not go to law school unless you can afford to graduate and: make no money for a year after graduation, not move back in with your parents during that period, not defer any of your financial obligations during that period, and meet all of your financial obligations as they become due during that period. I realize that this seems like a heavy burden - it should be. The ways in which one would be able to this off is: (1) family support, (2) spousal support, or (3) pre-law school savings.

What is this I don't even


Good, I thought this was just me :shock:


+1


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:10 pm 
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If you're dead set on Biglaw, then you should base your decision on where to go to law school exclusively on this table:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

Notice that if you're not at a T14, your chances of getting into Biglaw are relatively slim - typically only the top 10 to 15 percent at non-T14 schools make it. As a 0L or even a 1L that hasn't been through the application process yet, you really don't realize what that means. I'm at one of the schools towards the bottom of this list, I'm ranked in the top ten percent of my class and on law review, and I completely struck out at OCIs. I had TONS of interviews, and no offers. Several peers have suffered similar fates. On the other hand, I have a friend at one of the schools near the top of this list who's ranked right around the median and didn't make law review. He accepted an offer at a V20 firm and had to turn down several others.

The take away is that where you go to school makes a big difference in placement. Don't delude yourself into thinking you can just knock everyone's socks off at a lower ranked school. If the the number one reason you want to go to law school is to get into biglaw but your LSAT and UGPA won't comfortably get you into a T14, you should consider other career options. I'm serious - it's a tough market out there, and with Europe peering into a fiscal abyss, it doesn't look like it's going to get much better anytime soon.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:42 pm 
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To answer the OP: Once you get outside of the T14, the health of the local legal market is more important than USNWR rank. Outside of the T14, choose a school based on the legal market it feeds instead of its ranking.

hawkeye wrote:
I think the doom and gloom in this thread is a bit hyperbolic. There are obviously tons of people striking out and the legal market is bad, but at Iowa a good 20-25% of people got Big Law. I assume things are considerably better at the T14.


Is it really 20-25% at Iowa getting Biglaw? I know the NLJ250 is a flawed measurement, but 20-25% at Iowa sounds high given Iowa's recent NLJ250 placement and the Chicago horror stories in the Employment forum.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Ryanner20 wrote:
If you're dead set on Biglaw, then you should base your decision on where to go to law school exclusively on this table:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162


I'll let you think of the things that are wrong with this statement.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:50 pm 
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nouseforaname123 wrote:
To answer the OP: Once you get outside of the T14, the health of the local legal market is more important than USNWR rank. Outside of the T14, choose a school based on the legal market it feeds instead of its ranking.

hawkeye wrote:
I think the doom and gloom in this thread is a bit hyperbolic. There are obviously tons of people striking out and the legal market is bad, but at Iowa a good 20-25% of people got Big Law. I assume things are considerably better at the T14.


Is it really 20-25% at Iowa getting Biglaw? I know the NLJ250 is a flawed measurement, but 20-25% at Iowa sounds high given Iowa's recent NLJ250 placement and the Chicago horror stories in the Employment forum.


I can count 30 people that I know personally that have NLJ250 jobs and there are quite a few people that I don't know, so I believe that's a fair representation. It is true that most people have not had their pick of geographic regions (Chicago, in particular, has been rough), but a surprising number of people are getting market-paying employment. I also know a few people that could easily have gotten something from OCI, but are holding out for non-profit work.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:08 pm 
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hawkeye22 wrote:
nouseforaname123 wrote:
To answer the OP: Once you get outside of the T14, the health of the local legal market is more important than USNWR rank. Outside of the T14, choose a school based on the legal market it feeds instead of its ranking.

hawkeye wrote:
I think the doom and gloom in this thread is a bit hyperbolic. There are obviously tons of people striking out and the legal market is bad, but at Iowa a good 20-25% of people got Big Law. I assume things are considerably better at the T14.


Is it really 20-25% at Iowa getting Biglaw? I know the NLJ250 is a flawed measurement, but 20-25% at Iowa sounds high given Iowa's recent NLJ250 placement and the Chicago horror stories in the Employment forum.


I can count 30 people that I know personally that have NLJ250 jobs and there are quite a few people that I don't know, so I believe that's a fair representation. It is true that most people have not had their pick of geographic regions (Chicago, in particular, has been rough), but a surprising number of people are getting market-paying employment. I also know a few people that could easily have gotten something from OCI, but are holding out for non-profit work.


Clearly I should have transferred to Iowa.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Have you actually checked the NLJ250 list? I am wondering if these are just market-paying gigs rather than ones that actually count towards the NLJ250 stats.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Many of the ones I know are v100. I'm sure that some of them are not NLJ 250 though.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:34 pm 
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hawkeye22 wrote:
Many of the ones I know are v100. I'm sure that some of them are not NLJ 250 though.

I only bring it up because many employers in midsize midwestern cities are paying six figures, but are smaller than 160 lawyers and therefore those jobs aren't reflected in the NLJ250 data. It's no use saying lots of Iowa grads are getting NLJ250: we have the data on that and know the odds are bad. The NLJ250 is a bit arbitrary though, and data from that sample is going to favor schools in major cities feeding into the largest law firms over schools that place well in market-paying jobs in places like Minneapolis or Omaha.

I am not at all saying Iowa is a good bet. Rather, I am saying that the proportion of people who don't get NLJ250 but still get six figure firm jobs is probably greater from Iowa than from, say, a T6. People at T6 see that, among their peers, it's NLJ250 or nothing and therefore assume the worst about a school like Iowa's placement. While bad, it's probably not as bad as TLS believes.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:01 pm 
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I would try to present some good and bad, but all truth:

GOOD:

- If law is REALLY what you want to do, the coursework will range from interesting down to apathy-inducing, but it shouldn't be horrible/painful.

- Assuming you go to a top-50 school, you will have a fighting chance of a fairly high-paying legal job. That might mean 15% of your class or 50% of your class, but the number will be significant, even if it's a minority of the class.

- There are other good jobs out there too, including government and small/mid firm jobs. One thing I didn't realize is that the mid-sized and small firms can be really good places to work, especially if it's a lifestyle type firm where you can put in 50 hours per week even if you make less money. But....(see first point under BAD)

BAD:

- While there are some good small/mid-sized firm jobs, I didn't realize how hard those jobs are to find. Once you eliminate shitlaw jobs, there are probably more biglaw jobs than GOOD smaller-firm jobs. They are almost needles in a haystack.

- The legal profession is losing prestige. If you're seeking prestige or some baller lifestyle, you need to look elsewhere (and also grow up).

UGLY:

- Your peers will be douchebaggy. About 20% of them (this may be being generous) will be alright folks with some humility and personality. The rest of them will be hollow-souled humans who you will have no desire to hang out with.

- You are more likely to end up unemployed than with a good job. That's a pretty brutal statement. But there are a lot BAD jobs out there, and a big portion of law students will end up in those. Assistant county atty in Bumfuck, Nebraska for $30k per year. Law clerk in Bumfuck County, Minnesota for $13 an hour. Personal injury shitlaw associate. Etc. This is the future of a significant portion of law students, and I know recent grads doing those things. Probably a bigger portion than those who get biglaw, even at a top 50 school, and especially outside of the top 14. Add it together and you are probably twice as likely to be either unemployed or in a shitty job than to get biglaw or a quality (non-shitlaw) smaller-firm job.

- Doing great in law school is no guarantee of a good job, even with good interpersonal skills. I know a guy who is top 10% and LR at a t-50 who is unemployed. He's personable, has good experience, etc. It's just that he worked gov't 1L year, and they aren't hiring due to state hiring freeze. His 2L mid-sized firm is downsizing and not hiring. When the greater legal market sucks, "bad luck" can be the rule for individuals instead of the exception.

That's just off the top of my head, but I think it covers most of the things I'd want to say. I'd co-sign earlier comments about making sure law is what you really want to do and especially to think hard about attending any school outside of the top 14 (or maybe top 17-18) unless you're going for cheap or free.


Last edited by sebastian0622 on Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:02 pm 
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If you do get a biglaw 2L summer jerb, enjoy survivors' guilt. Not even joking. Pray you dont get no offered.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:28 pm 
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mrloblaw wrote:
hawkeye22 wrote:
nouseforaname123 wrote:
To answer the OP: Once you get outside of the T14, the health of the local legal market is more important than USNWR rank. Outside of the T14, choose a school based on the legal market it feeds instead of its ranking.

hawkeye wrote:
I think the doom and gloom in this thread is a bit hyperbolic. There are obviously tons of people striking out and the legal market is bad, but at Iowa a good 20-25% of people got Big Law. I assume things are considerably better at the T14.


Is it really 20-25% at Iowa getting Biglaw? I know the NLJ250 is a flawed measurement, but 20-25% at Iowa sounds high given Iowa's recent NLJ250 placement and the Chicago horror stories in the Employment forum.


I can count 30 people that I know personally that have NLJ250 jobs and there are quite a few people that I don't know, so I believe that's a fair representation. It is true that most people have not had their pick of geographic regions (Chicago, in particular, has been rough), but a surprising number of people are getting market-paying employment. I also know a few people that could easily have gotten something from OCI, but are holding out for non-profit work.


Clearly I should have transferred to Iowa.


Not really. Iowa placed, I think, 12% in NLJ 250 in recent years. It's unlikely that 30+ current Iowa 3L's have NLJ250 jobs, and numbers released in a year or two will bear that out. I'm a 2L at Iowa, and I know a whopping handful of people who have 2L SA's in biglaw lined up. I'd say roughly 20% have something lined up for next summer that could be classified as decent to good. Half have NOTHING lined up for next summer yet at all. Now, I don't know the entire class, but the people I hang out with tend to be doing pretty well academically (almost all are on a journal, most on LR, and from the little we've mentioned grades they do very well). Even they are having a really hard time. One got Chicago biglaw in OCI, another scrounged together an offer through hustling. I'd say unless a ton of people pick up jobs in 3L (unlikely), our class (2013) won't come anywhere near 25% biglaw placement. More like 10-15%, which is what past numbers indicate as well.

I have a couple offers from small firms and even I feel guilty bringing up such modest (in terms of prestige) offers. These are the types of job I want, but most INCOMING law students probably wouldn't really get excited about them. But a lot of CURRENT law students would love to have them simply because they are legitimate jobs practicing law paying enough to service loans. That's basically the holy grail, and probably 70% of the class will still be looking for it at graduation.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Grizz wrote:
If you do get a biglaw 2L summer jerb, enjoy survivors' guilt. Not even joking.


+1

The vast majority of 0L's are incapable of grasping just how true this is.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:43 pm 
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nouseforaname123 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
If you do get a biglaw 2L summer jerb, enjoy survivors' guilt. Not even joking.


+1

The vast majority of 0L's are incapable of grasping just how true this is.


+1


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:44 pm 
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nouseforaname123 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
If you do get a biglaw 2L summer jerb, enjoy survivors' guilt. Not even joking.


+1

The vast majority of 0L's are incapable of grasping just how true this is.

I think this actually explains some of the more bitter threads around here. People want to believe they're employed because they're more special, more hard-working, more personable, more worthy. No one wants to believe that it might be largely random.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:14 pm 
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sebastian0622 wrote:
- Your peers will be douchebaggy. About 20% of them (this may be being generous) will be alright folks with some humility and personality. The rest of them will be hollow-souled humans who you will have no desire to hang out with.

Christ, bro, this is either pernicious hyperbole, or you're just antisocial. Even among lawyers/law students, more than one in five will be normal people.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:31 pm 
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If you have a legitimate other option that will lead you to a moderately happy life, take it.

1L at a T6.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Flash wrote:
If you have a legitimate other option that will lead you to a moderately happy life, take it.

1L at a T6.

I would have said this as a 1L. I feel differently now.

edit: substitute T6 w/ T14


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:44 pm 
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IAFG wrote:
nouseforaname123 wrote:
Grizz wrote:
If you do get a biglaw 2L summer jerb, enjoy survivors' guilt. Not even joking.


+1

The vast majority of 0L's are incapable of grasping just how true this is.

I think this actually explains some of the more bitter threads around here. People want to believe they're employed because they're more special, more hard-working, more personable, more worthy. No one wants to believe that it might be largely random.

That's basically it right there. If I had to try to put it into words for 1Ls, it's this:

You come in to 1L, and the people that do best have an affinity for picking up on a type of test that doesn't resemble legal practice on subjects that don't resemble anything you'll see in practice either. Hard work is neither necessary nor sufficient to do well. Whether you did well or not is largely out of your control, thanks to the curve. The results from these tests will largely determine one's success at OCI, but when you get the results, they often seem totally random.

Then you get into OCI. And if you're in a system with lottery, it's gonna feel random what firms you get. Some people get a lot, some people don't. If it's preselect, then interviews you get are based off 1L grades (which will seem random). You go into interviews, and whether you click with screening interviewers sometimes is largely a function of chance, unless you truly are the type of person who has a big personality. Sometimes you don't click and you get the CB anyway. Callbacks are more of a same. Because there are so many applicants, the process is largely out of your hands, and you'll have no idea why you get picked over someone else. People who did better than you will strike out, people who did worse than you will get offers. Decisions are based on "fit," and it's almost impossible to know what that's like before walking in the room. All the while you're stressed and feel sorta helpless about this situation that is entirely out of control.

So at the end, you have an offer, and sometimes, you have no idea why. Sure, you have a good personality, but there are plenty of people with awesome personalities with no offers. Sure you may have grades, but what are those really based on anyway? Getting an offer isn't validating, it leaves you wondering, even if just a little bit, why you deserved it over anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Have at least two (preferably 3-4) years work experience in something that isn't retail. Without it, you are too easy to lose in the hundreds to thousands of applications per position that they receive (minus stellar grades...which you cannot control going into law school).

Ohhh wait! Or if you are just going to get an advanced degree, you can just study your butt off for a year for the GMAT and make a smart decision like going to b-school.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:27 pm 
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cattleprod wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:
ITE, I'm not sure that going to law school because you want to be a lawyer is much different from heading to LA because you want to be an actor: life dream or not, be prepared to fail hard.


"be prepared to fail hard"

And being a lawyer on the bottom of the profession is quite similar to being an actress at the bottom of the profession.
Doc review lawyers have much in common with porn actresses.

Once you do porn, it is almost impossible to go mainstream as an actress.
Once you do doc review, it is almost impossible to go mainstream as a lawyer.

The numbers should scare anyone away from trying to be a lawyer.
There is no way to justify it financially these days with over half of lawyers washing out of the profession within 5 years of graduation.



Can someone substantiate the claims that support the idea of numbers that "should scare anyone". I'm not necessarily doubting that fact that the post-law school employment climate is as bleak as purported to be it would just be interesting to be dealing with some real statistics. I'm planning to head to law school under the assumption that I wont necessarily be practicing as a lawyer out of law school but be one who is trained in policy and law and therefore a viable candidate for many employment opportunities.


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 Post subject: Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:30 pm 
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chalkbreath512 wrote:
I'm planning to head to law school under the assumption that I wont necessarily be practicing as a lawyer out of law school but be one who is trained in policy and law and therefore a viable candidate for many employment opportunities.

Law school does not train you well for the bolded, and it doesn't help getting nonlegal jobs in the underlined (at least right out of school).


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