2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

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BeenDidThat
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby BeenDidThat » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:28 pm

TAKE THE MONEY.

You do not want to pay full tuition outside T14 - (Cornell + GT).

Some people luck out, but if you're:
1) legit interested in working as a lawyer;
2) get into a decent state school; and
3) in-state,
then you'd be a smart person to go to the state school with in-state tuition over the likes of WUSTL, Fordham, etc.

Note that California in-state is fucking bullshit, and you're a lunatic if you go to UCLA/Davis without some kind of scholarship.

This is, of course, if you aren't independently wealthy etc.

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Grizz
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Grizz » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:29 pm

SecReg wrote:u dun goofed


Image

SecReg
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby SecReg » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:31 pm

Grizz wrote:
SecReg wrote:u dun goofed


Image


On a completely unrelated note, skoal > cope > grizz > hawkin.

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Strange
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Strange » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:39 pm

If some of you could post what schools you're going to, or at least a range/tier that would be helpful

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Grizz
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Grizz » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:56 pm

SecReg wrote:On a completely unrelated note, skoal > cope > grizz > hawkin.

I actually usually dip skoal straight, so can't really argue.

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Grizz
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Grizz » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:58 pm

Strange wrote:If some of you could post what schools you're going to, or at least a range/tier that would be helpful

UCLA/Vandy/Tex with massive scholarship, but my general feelings about the industry are generally applicable.

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quiver
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby quiver » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:54 pm

Figure out how to interview. If you have WE, figure out how to spin it; if you don't have WE figure out how to spin what you do have. Outside of maybe top 10% at a T14, poor interviewing can really lose you jobs.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:06 pm

Don't go because you don't know what else you're going to do.

When someone says to you, "Only go to law school if you really want to be a lawyer," don't immediately respond, "But I do really want to be a lawyer!" It's not an invitation to get defensive, or to let yourself think you're superior to all those dummies who are in law school for the wrong reasons. Think about it. Almost nobody knows what being a lawyer is like, including you, probably; it's not a deficiency on your part. But you need to have that moment of truth sooner or later, so don't bury your head in the sand and take out hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt before you actually think about it.

cattleprod
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby cattleprod » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:07 pm

mrloblaw wrote:ITE, I'm not sure that going to law school because you want to be a lawyer is much different from heading to LA because you want to be an actor: life dream or not, be prepared to fail hard.


"be prepared to fail hard"

And being a lawyer on the bottom of the profession is quite similar to being an actress at the bottom of the profession.
Doc review lawyers have much in common with porn actresses.

Once you do porn, it is almost impossible to go mainstream as an actress.
Once you do doc review, it is almost impossible to go mainstream as a lawyer.

The numbers should scare anyone away from trying to be a lawyer.
There is no way to justify it financially these days with over half of lawyers washing out of the profession within 5 years of graduation.

mich 13
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby mich 13 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:40 pm

1. Expose yourself to the law in some way: read some famous Supreme Court cases, watch a piece of a trial, work as a paralegal, etc --- this will let you know if there is something about law you like.
2. Have an idea of what kinds of jobs you might be interested in doing and figure out what they actually are (ex: if you think you want to go into international law, or tax, or commercial transactions you should know what that means)
3. If your goal is something that is very difficult to achieve (ex: civil rights work, international law - have at least one backup legal career in mind that you would be happy with and is easier to get). If your goal is something that is moderately difficult (working for a large/midsized law firm) you still need to have a backup career path.
4. Consider a school with reasonable tuition rates or one where you got a good scholarship. Schools like Boston College, Emory, and George Washington are charging more than 40. If you are an in-state resident you can go to Arkansas for 11k. If you live in Arkansas and are considering paying anything close to 40k to go to some school ranked in the 20's or 30's I would urge you to think again.

Its really really hard to get a job at the ACLU, International Court of Justice, DOJ, etc. Its also hard to get a job at a big law firm or in a government agency (though at some schools its a lot harder than others). If you go to law school with only these options in mind you are setting yourself up for potential misery.

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Rammstein
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Rammstein » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:43 pm

DON'T JUMP!

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Mroberts3
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Mroberts3 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:01 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Don't go because you don't know what else you're going to do.

When someone says to you, "Only go to law school if you really want to be a lawyer," don't immediately respond, "But I do really want to be a lawyer!" It's not an invitation to get defensive, or to let yourself think you're superior to all those dummies who are in law school for the wrong reasons. Think about it. Almost nobody knows what being a lawyer is like, including you, probably; it's not a deficiency on your part. But you need to have that moment of truth sooner or later, so don't bury your head in the sand and take out hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt before you actually think about it.


This is basically what I was going to say. So many people think they want to be lawyer, but don't really understand what they mean when they say it. I don't think they are subconsciously only in it for the money or "prestige," but there is a certain aura of "the law" in the abstract that you don't see on a day to day basis.

Without going into too much detail, I think you need to really enjoy the nitty gritty legal problems -- not just larger questions of justice or whatever. Its similar to politics because you need to really enjoy the day to day of working on a campaign or in an office and not just generally care about the bigger issues. You won't be arguing a motion before the Supreme Court. Ever. Do you really think you would enjoy spending all week writing a memo on compulsory joinder or the ex parte Young exception to sovereign immunity?

If so, join our nerdy club. Otherwise, don't be a lawyer -- be a productive member of society.

EDIT: also, basically nobody does international law, human rights law, appellate work, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm an idealist who would like to be a prosecutor in the future. However, its not realistic to think a job saving the world is just out there waiting for you. There is a totem pole in every profession and even those of us heading to biglaw are still just a blob of gum on the bottom of someone's shoe.

BeenDidThat
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby BeenDidThat » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:10 am

Mroberts3 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:Don't go because you don't know what else you're going to do.

When someone says to you, "Only go to law school if you really want to be a lawyer," don't immediately respond, "But I do really want to be a lawyer!" It's not an invitation to get defensive, or to let yourself think you're superior to all those dummies who are in law school for the wrong reasons. Think about it. Almost nobody knows what being a lawyer is like, including you, probably; it's not a deficiency on your part. But you need to have that moment of truth sooner or later, so don't bury your head in the sand and take out hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt before you actually think about it.


This is basically what I was going to say. So many people think they want to be lawyer, but don't really understand what they mean when they say it. I don't think they are subconsciously only in it for the money or "prestige," but there is a certain aura of "the law" in the abstract that you don't see on a day to day basis.

Without going into too much detail, I think you need to really enjoy the nitty gritty legal problems -- not just larger questions of justice or whatever. Its similar to politics because you need to really enjoy the day to day of working on a campaign or in an office and not just generally care about the bigger issues. You won't be arguing a motion before the Supreme Court. Ever. Do you really think you would enjoy spending all week writing a memo on compulsory joinder or the ex parte Young exception to sovereign immunity?

If so, join our nerdy club. Otherwise, don't be a lawyer -- be a productive member of society.


EDIT: also, basically nobody does international law, human rights law, appellate work, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm an idealist who would like to be a prosecutor in the future. However, its not realistic to think a job saving the world is just out there waiting for you. There is a totem pole in every profession and even those of us heading to biglaw are still just a blob of gum on the bottom of someone's shoe.


Watch the self-loathing brodie.

I was with you through the first 2 paragraphs...but jeez dude if you talk like this enough you might just convince yourself of a pretty unrealistic view of the profession.
Last edited by BeenDidThat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby IAFG » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:48 am

Honestly? I would do it again. I think the job prospects from Northwestern are pretty damn good, and if you want to enter the legal profession, you will probably find a decent gig from Northwestern. Sounds like people at Cornell and Duke have had similar experiences, especially for people who took the time between college and law school to mature, get some work experience and have a strong narrative for employers about why they're here.

The #1 mistake I see applicants make is not applying to peer schools to get leverage to negotiate for aid. It's so pennywise and pound foolish. I spent a few hundred bucks applying, and it will save me $1,000 a month on loans for ten years.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:09 am

First and foremost, Cornell is as good as any other school outside the T5. People on this board have a weird thing where they feel like Cornell isn't as good as, if not better than, most of the back half of the T14. If you want big law and were facing sticker at all of the lower half of the T14, I would recommend Cornell over most of the others (except maybe Penn). Please note, however, that I'm referring to the NLJ250 and not some random "vault" based cutoff.

Second, and more importantly, do not go to law school unless you have a strong financial support structure. Trust me, I understand that that statement is ambiguous and you are probably tired of the ambiguity fed to you by law schools. So to place that statement in practical context: do not go to law school unless you can afford to graduate and: make no money for a year after graduation, not move back in with your parents during that period, not defer any of your financial obligations during that period, and meet all of your financial obligations as they become due during that period. I realize that this seems like a heavy burden - it should be. The ways in which one would be able to this off is: (1) family support, (2) spousal support, or (3) pre-law school savings.

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MTal
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:57 am

Tell them...MTal was right.

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Mroberts3
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby Mroberts3 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:28 pm

BeenDidThat wrote:
Watch the self-loathing brodie.

I was with you through the first 2 paragraphs...but jeez dude if you talk like this enough you might just convince yourself of a pretty unrealistic view of the profession.


As is often the case with the internet, it is easy to come across in a different way from what you intended. The first bolded part was just a poor attempt at self-deprecating humor. I wouldn't be in law school if I really thought lawyers were a leech on society.

The second bolded part is more relevant to incoming students, and I don't think it is lawyer specific. The point I was hoping to make is that you have to have realistic expectations of what you can accomplish right away. Its great to have high aspirations, but it is also important to plan how you are going to support yourself and pay off your loans in the next few years. Remembering that you will inevitably start at the bottom of the totem pole will help temper your expectations to be more in line with reality (as opposed to being hopelessly depressed if your first job doesn't have the perceived importance you were hoping for coming into law school). This doesn't just apply to law, so I'm not taking a particularly dim view of the legal profession as opposed to any other field.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I wanted to clarify my post because I don't want scare people off from law school as such. I just want to make sure that they have realistic expectations of life after school.

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MTal
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby MTal » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:35 pm

Mroberts3 wrote:I just want to make sure that they have realistic expectations of life after school.


You mean being massively in debt and unemployed?

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IAFG
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby IAFG » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:37 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:First and foremost, Cornell is as good as any other school outside the T5. People on this board have a weird thing where they feel like Cornell isn't as good as, if not better than, most of the back half of the T14.


Blame Desert Fox. He started some well-earned anti-Cornell trolling based on their terrible admissions data. Their placement is quite good, especially when NYC is strong.

Aberzombie1892 wrote: If you want big law and were facing sticker at all of the lower half of the T14, I would recommend Cornell over most of the others (except maybe Penn). Please note, however, that I'm referring to the NLJ250 and not some random "vault" based cutoff.


You're only right if the person in question wants NYC. If you want, say, California or Florida or Chicago or Texas, there are probably better schools to attend that will give you a similar shot at NYC and also give you a better shot at a non-NYC market than Cornell could.

Aberzombie1892 wrote: Second, and more importantly, do not go to law school unless you have a strong financial support structure. Trust me, I understand that that statement is ambiguous and you are probably tired of the ambiguity fed to you by law schools. So to place that statement in practical context: do not go to law school unless you can afford to graduate and: make no money for a year after graduation, not move back in with your parents during that period, not defer any of your financial obligations during that period, and meet all of your financial obligations as they become due during that period. I realize that this seems like a heavy burden - it should be. The ways in which one would be able to this off is: (1) family support, (2) spousal support, or (3) pre-law school savings.

What is this I don't even

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20130312
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby 20130312 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:41 pm

IAFG wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote: Second, and more importantly, do not go to law school unless you have a strong financial support structure. Trust me, I understand that that statement is ambiguous and you are probably tired of the ambiguity fed to you by law schools. So to place that statement in practical context: do not go to law school unless you can afford to graduate and: make no money for a year after graduation, not move back in with your parents during that period, not defer any of your financial obligations during that period, and meet all of your financial obligations as they become due during that period. I realize that this seems like a heavy burden - it should be. The ways in which one would be able to this off is: (1) family support, (2) spousal support, or (3) pre-law school savings.

What is this I don't even


Good, I thought this was just me :shock:

mrloblaw
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:09 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote: Second, and more importantly, do not go to law school unless you have a strong financial support structure. Trust me, I understand that that statement is ambiguous and you are probably tired of the ambiguity fed to you by law schools. So to place that statement in practical context: do not go to law school unless you can afford to graduate and: make no money for a year after graduation, not move back in with your parents during that period, not defer any of your financial obligations during that period, and meet all of your financial obligations as they become due during that period. I realize that this seems like a heavy burden - it should be. The ways in which one would be able to this off is: (1) family support, (2) spousal support, or (3) pre-law school savings.

What is this I don't even


Good, I thought this was just me :shock:


+1

Also, I'm not certain about the Cornell being as good as NYU or Penn thing. It strikes me as pretty egregious Cornell trolling.

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prezidentv8
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:12 pm

MTal wrote:Tell them...MTal was right.


:mrgreen:

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IAFG
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby IAFG » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:20 pm

mrloblaw wrote:Also, I'm not certain about the Cornell being as good as NYU or Penn thing. It strikes me as pretty egregious Cornell trolling.

Oh God, this shit again. No, those schools don't have identical placement. But they're all within a few percentage points of each other. For some reason I have yet to understand, TLSers love to focus on the differences without noticing that the placement power within CCN, MVPB, and DCN is pretty equivalent.

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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby hawkeye22 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:22 pm

I think the doom and gloom in this thread is a bit hyperbolic. There are obviously tons of people striking out and the legal market is bad, but at Iowa a good 20-25% of people got Big Law. I assume things are considerably better at the T14.

mrloblaw
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Re: 2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015?

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
mrloblaw wrote:Also, I'm not certain about the Cornell being as good as NYU or Penn thing. It strikes me as pretty egregious Cornell trolling.

Oh God, this shit again. No, those schools don't have identical placement. But they're all within a few percentage points of each other. For some reason I have yet to understand, TLSers love to focus on the differences without noticing that the placement power within CCN, MVPB, and DCN is pretty equivalent.


Probably because, ITE, a few percentage points is the difference between dozens of students per school either hitting the biglaw jackpot or waiting tables with the kids from Cooley.

Granted, this is from an NYU 2L who will in a year be waiting tables with the kids from Cooley.




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