2L's / 3L's: What would you tell the law school c/o 2015? Forum

[BeenDidThat]

Oh yeah, and every law student, prospective law student, lawyer, and spouse of a law student or lawyer should read this:

--LinkRemoved--

I find this stuff really interesting, and I have a theory as to why lawyers in general suffer from high rates of anxiety & depression: the kind of hypothetical thinking and skepticism that drives one to be so detail-oriented (a good trait if you want to be a lawyer) probably correlates pretty closely to things like "paranoid ideation, interpersonal sensitivity, phobic anxiety, and hostility," as the article puts it. If you're not used to thinking about all the possible things that could happen (including bad ones, or ones that imply bad things about people), you're probably more likely to float along happily in the world.

Probably doesn't help that a lot of lawyers deal with alleged crimes day-in, day-out, either.

[MTal]

To add to the above...Irrational self-confidence will get you farther in life than rational defeatism.

[IAFG]

To add to the above...Irrational self-confidence will get you farther in life than rational defeatism.

I just... don't even know what to think about you delivering this particular message.

[MTal]

To add to the above...Irrational self-confidence will get you farther in life than rational defeatism.

I just... don't even know what to think about you delivering this particular message.

I see what you mean. I guess I meant it within the context of interpersonal relationships/interview skills...not so much the law school scam.

[OperaSoprano]

Know what you want. Know that you could be making a sacrifice to get there, and potentially a big one. This is partially about flexibility and managing expectations-- most of us, even in my year (2012) knew what we were getting into regarding hiring. It takes a certain courage that perhaps could be termed "irrational self confidence" to do that.

I am not convinced, however, that failure to land biglaw is a horrific calamity. There are certain people who are suited to the work and will enjoy it. Some will get through it for a couple of years, for the training and the exit options. For these reasons, and because of debt, I actively urge anyone who has a reasonable shot to go through OCI. I did it myself, though I truly wanted public interest work. I learned a great deal about my own needs in the process, and am not sorry I will not be joining a large firm.

You do need to be proactive in advocating for yourself if you are going off the beaten path (by this, I mean looking for any non firm/clerkship/DOJ type job.) You cannot afford not to be comfortable selling yourself. You should also be able to see law school as an intrinsically valuable experience in itself. During my time as a 0L/1L/2L/3L, the people who saw it wholly as a means to an end wound up incredibly bitter if they didn't get the end they had in mind.

Find mentors who have done the thing you hope to do. Pay attention to deadlines, but don't torture yourself, and enjoy the small moments. It goes by so fast.

[Gail]

Way to be an unruly 8th grader.

[un-vordox]

tagged for the links

[iamrobk]

This is a great thread and even though it's scared me a lot, I'm really glad I read it. It's so annoying that everyone I know automatically assumes I'll have a great job after law school (except, fortunately, my father, who actually knows exactly how bad the legal market is despite not being a lawyer).

[landla]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone in law school who posted here. It is helpful to get your points of view separated from the rest, and some really interesting stuff is in here.

[Tarheel1234]

Hello,

I am a prospective law applicant. I've heard people say to only pay sticker at a school in the T14, I've heard other people say only pay sticker at HYS or a top 6. What are your thoughts? I've also heard only go to law school if it is HYS or a very good scholarship to any of the T14. Again, thoughts?

Have you heard of people at T14 schools where it is hard to secure a long-term permanent position requiring a JD?

Thank you very much.

[snehpets]

Hello,

I am a prospective law applicant. I've heard people say to only pay sticker at a school in the T14, I've heard other people say only pay sticker at HYS or a top 6. What are your thoughts? I've also heard only go to law school if it is HYS or a very good scholarship to any of the T14. Again, thoughts?

Have you heard of people at T14 schools where it is hard to secure a long-term permanent position requiring a JD?

Thank you very much.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/law-stud ... mployment/

Personally I'm a 0L so I have little to contribute in terms of what's worth paying for, but there are definitely people at T14s without jobs. I probably wouldn't pay sticker for anything besides HYSCCNPM and Texas (in-state) but it's really a personal choice in how much risk you're willing to take on.

[msblaw89]

I understand the the economy took quite a blow, but we will continually need lawyers. Just turn on the news any given night. Murders, white collar crime, mergers, tax issues, liability, divorce, global legal issues.... Law is our structures our society. I think attending law school is a great choice and just as good as any other profession ( except for maybe medical school...but I am assuming law applicants don't know a lick of most of the hard sciences). Sure, it might be hard for some to find employment, but there are plenty of law grads who ARE. The dynamics of the game are different now, but if you network like crazy and go to a t20, I refuse to believe you can't find ONE DECENT JOB. I would like to think that things are getting better, and many firms have increased employment. If things turn bad again...it won't just be the legal field that hurts...and you might be in a better position with a law degree than many others. Just my opinion...maybe a little self-fulfilling, but I simply don't believe the legal field is going to crash and burn. Our society ( greedy and needy) depend on it too much

[Julio_El_Chavo]

ITE, I'm not sure that going to law school because you want to be a lawyer is much different from heading to LA because you want to be an actor: life dream or not, be prepared to fail hard.

Ouch... tough words. Is it silly to think that the legal profession is on the upswing and I'll be okay if I wait another year or so?

Yes, this is in direct conflict with the Bureau of Labor Statistic's estimates.

[RedBirds2011]

Analogy to moving to la to be actor: even with how bad the legal economy is, it is nowhere even close to the failure rate of aspiring actors. Come on. What's that success rate? Like less than 1 percent!?

[Julio_El_Chavo]

Analogy to moving to la to be actor: even with how bad the legal economy is, it is nowhere even close to the failure rate of aspiring actors. Come on. What's that success rate? Like less than 1 percent!?

If you define "success" as "biglaw," some of the lowest ranked law schools probably have the same "success" rate as people trying to land legit acting gigs in LA.

[SunshineMagic]

Analogy to moving to la to be actor: even with how bad the legal economy is, it is nowhere even close to the failure rate of aspiring actors. Come on. What's that success rate? Like less than 1 percent!?

Becoming successful in any aspect of the industry like any aspect of life is a mind set but most likely comes down to a predetermined destiny... I really doubt that anyone on this site could ever understand what it means to aspire to become a talent. I would also wager that not a soul on here would have the balls to pursue a Hollywood career... Alas 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of them can all be laughed at but .000000000000000000000000000000000001% fascinate the world.

[RedBirds2011]

Analogy to moving to la to be actor: even with how bad the legal economy is, it is nowhere even close to the failure rate of aspiring actors. Come on. What's that success rate? Like less than 1 percent!?

If you define "success" as "biglaw," some of the lowest ranked law schools probably have the same "success" rate as people trying to land legit acting gigs in LA.

Even at a low school, if you are number 1 in your class you could get biglaw. I think odds of being numero uno at a law school, however low those odds, is still a much higher probability then moving to Hollywood and becoming the next jack Nicholson lol

[RedBirds2011]

... Alas 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of them can all be laughed at but .000000000000000000000000000000000001% fascinate the world.[/quote]


Lolwut

[SunshineMagic]

... Alas 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of them can all be laughed at but .000000000000000000000000000000000001% fascinate the world.

Lolwut[/quote]

my point exactly

[20130312]

ITE, I'm not sure that going to law school because you want to be a lawyer is much different from heading to LA because you want to be an actor: life dream or not, be prepared to fail hard.

Ouch... tough words. Is it silly to think that the legal profession is on the upswing and I'll be okay if I wait another year or so?

Yes, this is in direct conflict with the Bureau of Labor Statistic's estimates.

Sauce?

[RogerWaters]

This is the most informative thread I've read in months of lurking here. Thank you for everyone's input thus far.

My question:

Is the feeling generally that this is a really bad short-term shock to the legal market or is it that the days where T14 meant great job prospects almost across the board (in terms of class rank) are gone forever? I mean, it has been a horrible market for almost half a decade now - am I being unreasonable to think that by the time people graduate in 2015 that they will be looking at great prospects and the doom and gloom of the 2 and 3L's here will be anachronistic?

Unless there is some type of massive systemic change where Biglaw no longer needs to operate the way it has for (? I don't know, a hundred years or so ?) then I don't see how once the rest of the economy picks back up that the law jobs won't come right along with it.

[RedBirds2011]

This is the most informative thread I've read in months of lurking here. Thank you for everyone's input thus far.

My question:

Is the feeling generally that this is a really bad short-term shock to the legal market or is it that the days where T14 meant great job prospects almost across the board (in terms of class rank) are gone forever? I mean, it has been a horrible market for almost half a decade now - am I being unreasonable to think that by the time people graduate in 2015 that they will be looking at great prospects and the doom and gloom of the 2 and 3L's here will be anachronistic?

Unless there is some type of massive systemic change where Biglaw no longer needs to operate the way it has for (? I don't know, a hundred years or so ?) then I don't see how once the rest of the economy picks back up that the law jobs won't come right along with it.

I think you will find that many people will try to predict what the future will be like and look at trends to suggest they know, but honestly nobody knows. You can't predict the future. Experts have, of course, always tried but it all ultimately ends up being just speculation.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

ITE, I'm not sure that going to law school because you want to be a lawyer is much different from heading to LA because you want to be an actor: life dream or not, be prepared to fail hard.

Ouch... tough words. Is it silly to think that the legal profession is on the upswing and I'll be okay if I wait another year or so?

Yes, this is in direct conflict with the Bureau of Labor Statistic's estimates.

Sauce?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=181169

[ahnhub]

Hello,

I am a prospective law applicant. I've heard people say to only pay sticker at a school in the T14, I've heard other people say only pay sticker at HYS or a top 6. What are your thoughts? I've also heard only go to law school if it is HYS or a very good scholarship to any of the T14. Again, thoughts?

Have you heard of people at T14 schools where it is hard to secure a long-term permanent position requiring a JD?

Thank you very much.

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/law-stud ... mployment/

Personally I'm a 0L so I have little to contribute in terms of what's worth paying for, but there are definitely people at T14s without jobs. I probably wouldn't pay sticker for anything besides HYSCCNPM and Texas (in-state) but it's really a personal choice in how much risk you're willing to take on.

Also a somewhat obsessive 0L but my take FWIW is-- what happened to c/o 2010, 2011, 2012 was exceptional, and most likely will not happen again. Even if the economy double-dips there will not be a financial shut down and mass layoffs, no-offers, etc. But the underlying issues with law school have been exposed, and they're not gonna change-- there's way too many graduates, only so many Biglaw jobs, and people have only a very small window of opportunity to snag one. It's easy to overlook that at T-14 when 95% of Columbia is landing an SA gig, but if the new normal becomes 85% there's gonna be more unhappy law grads around, and they're gonna be harder to ignore.

That said, what I'm discovering is that T-14 actually has more value than just 70 or 80% success rates at OCI. The degree is seen as a valuable commodity in almost every legal marketplace, big or small. When the crash happened the 5 or 6 Biglaw firms in my home market of Detroit started taking 7 or 8 (out of maybe 10-12) SAs from T-14, when before they only took 3 or 4. People who realized OCI was no guarantee and expanded their job search accordingly found those opportunities.

I honestly believe there's always been people--maybe just a handful each year--at schools like Michigan or NYU who struggled to find work for long periods of time or even gave up trying to be a lawyer, even in boom times. That number exploded during the crash. I don't know where it's gonna settle at, but it'll probably be somewhere between non-negligible but not extremely alarming.

[TyrionLannister]

Analogy to moving to la to be actor: even with how bad the legal economy is, it is nowhere even close to the failure rate of aspiring actors. Come on. What's that success rate? Like less than 1 percent!?

If you define "success" as "biglaw," some of the lowest ranked law schools probably have the same "success" rate as people trying to land legit acting gigs in LA.

Pardon me while I jump up on this soapbox:

Anyone who compares finding work as a lawyer to finding work as an actor really has no clue as to what they are talking about.

I have worked as an actor in LA for over a decade. For many years, all I needed was acting to pay the bills. When the economy hit the shits, work dried up here faster than anywhere. They make half of the projects that they used to with the same sized talent pool to draw on. This is why every new show is loaded with stars and recognizable faces. People need to pay their bills, so everyone gets moved down the totem pole.

The real work of an actor is just finding work. The grind of auditioning will wear you down. The problem is, if you are fortunate enough to find a gig, once you finish that gig you are unemployed again. If you want to compare statistics, compare finding a career in acting to landing a new law job every month. At least when you land a law job, you actually have that stable job from which to build a career. Acting is never like that, not even for established stars. One bad string of career choices and you are back scrapping for work at the bottom again.

And please spare me any sort of nasty "maybe you personally aren't that good" replies. I am still landing work. But with two kids, not knowing when the next job is coming in is no way to live. Hence the path into law.

Apologies if this came off as snarky.