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Hey I am a 3L at MSU and I can answer questions about the school if anyone is curious.

Michigan State or Mississippi? If Michigan State - I have some questions....

A quick check through post history shows OP goes to Michigan State.

ETA: The tone of this post isn't mean, in case you read it that way.

UnamSanctam wrote:A quick check through post history shows OP goes to Michigan State.

ETA: The tone of this post isn't mean, in case you read it that way.

I did not read it that way at all... I should have checked that myself tho. thanks for clearing that up.

Do you have a job? Do your friends have jobs? Do your non-friends have jobs? Where?

I do not have a job. Several of my friends have jobs lined up (two in large firms, two in a medium-sized firm, one with a corporation, etc). However, I have a lot of friends (I'm counting 8 just off the top of my head) who graduated last year and they all have jobs now. Of course this is all anecdotal...I don't know what the percentage of employed 3Ls is. It's a pretty dismal market (as I'm sure you know) but, honestly, I'm not too worried about it. I've received an outstanding education at Michigan State and I realize I may need to wait until after I pass the bar to find a job. It sucks but it is what it is. It's just gonna take some flexibility and patience I think...through no fault of my own or MSU.

Obviously the placement is great in Michigan and pretty good in Chicago (especially if you spend 1L or 2L summer out there). Our DC placement is pretty rad too because we have a semester program down there. There's a large MSU alum group in DC as well.

Can you give some insight into the experience of non-trads at the law school, particularly those in their late 30s, with children?

I would also be interested in learning more about the experience of people who pursued joint-degrees with business and/or urban planning.

Thanks!

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Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about nontraditional students here...Obviously there are non traditional students I just don't really know them or hang out with them as I am a "traditional" law student. I can say that Okemos (5 minutes from East Lansing) has one of the best public school systems in the state. Maybe another person can jump in here and give you a better idea of being in law school (and MSU specifically) with kids. The joint degree programs seem great and the students I know who are enrolled in them seem really happy with them. The business school here is really good so that's a bonus.

As far as Wayne versus MSU? Wayne is way cheaper which should be a big factor in your decision I think. Wayne is highly respected in Michigan and probably in the midwest I would think. However, Wayne is a commuter school. If you want a more collegial experience I would say MSU is the better pick. I think the quality of life in East Lansing is far better than Detroit because of this...although Detroit has more going on. MSU is also a nationally recognized school while Wayne isn't...but you need to decide if it's worth the extra tuition price to get that name recognition.

MSU's DC placement is rad.

Here's some highly classified information that might be of interest to anyone thinking of dropping $108,444 (average debt for the Class of 2010) to attend this law school:

--LinkRemoved--

P.S. Kudos to MSU for posting relatively good employment and salary data.

prophecybysnakes wrote:Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about nontraditional students here...Obviously there are non traditional students I just don't really know them or hang out with them as I am a "traditional" law student. I can say that Okemos (5 minutes from East Lansing) has one of the best public school systems in the state. Maybe another person can jump in here and give you a better idea of being in law school (and MSU specifically) with kids. The joint degree programs seem great and the students I know who are enrolled in them seem really happy with them. The business school here is really good so that's a bonus.

Thanks Prophecy!

I'm looking forward to ASD to come out and learn more!

What are the opportunities available for students wanting to get into prosecution? I know many of the schools I am looking at are currently in hiring freezes. How about the East Lansing/surrounding area?

Thanks for taking questions!

I have been offered admission with 75% tuition scholarship by MSU. But I am required to achieve a GPA of 2.8 or higher to keep the scholarship. Is it difficult to do that? Will MSU intend to lower my GPA so that I have to pay all tuition in 2L and 3L? I heard some private schools did that, so I am worrying.

Is there any international student around you? Could they find a job in Michigan or Chicago? If the market is especially dismal for MSU international students, I have to choose schools in big cities...

accidentalhippy wrote:Can you give some insight into the experience of non-trads at the law school, particularly those in their late 30s, with children?

I would also be interested in learning more about the experience of people who pursued joint-degrees with business and/or urban planning.

Thanks!

Im a non-traditional 1L at MSU right now...Im in my 30s with a wife and young son. I chose to move to E.L. (my family stayed behind in metro-Detroit area). The weekdays are very busy, and I always get to go home on the weekends. I am friends with about three other non-traditional, older students and it is definitely do-able, though I have to admit that I might have had quite a few problems if I stayed at home and tried to get all of this workload done during the week. Its A LOT.

I know of others with kids, too...and so far, the professors seem to genuinely understand the inevitable complications that come with being a law school student/parent.

I dont know if that helps. Feel free to ask me more.

TheGreatWhiteHorse wrote:

accidentalhippy wrote:Can you give some insight into the experience of non-trads at the law school, particularly those in their late 30s, with children?

I would also be interested in learning more about the experience of people who pursued joint-degrees with business and/or urban planning.

Thanks!

Im a non-traditional 1L at MSU right now...Im in my 30s with a wife and young son. I chose to move to E.L. (my family stayed behind in metro-Detroit area). The weekdays are very busy, and I always get to go home on the weekends. I am friends with about three other non-traditional, older students and it is definitely do-able, though I have to admit that I might have had quite a few problems if I stayed at home and tried to get all of this workload done during the week. Its A LOT.

I know of others with kids, too...and so far, the professors seem to genuinely understand the inevitable complications that come with being a law school student/parent.

I dont know if that helps. Feel free to ask me more.

As I currently work full time, I'm totally accustomed to having no life (part of the reason why I'm hoping to share a place with another grad student with kid is so that I can pretend to be social after my DD and I get home). I am curious about how the 1L course scheduling is set. I gather it's by section for the first year and then you can pretty much choose your own classes after that? If that's the case, have you found that non-trads with kiddos have been able to be placed in sections that don't have class after 5 or before 9?

Also, do you know anyone working in the urban ag practicum? I would love to learn more about how that's unfolding.

Thanks!

accidentalhippy wrote:

TheGreatWhiteHorse wrote:

accidentalhippy wrote:Can you give some insight into the experience of non-trads at the law school, particularly those in their late 30s, with children?

I would also be interested in learning more about the experience of people who pursued joint-degrees with business and/or urban planning.

Thanks!

Im a non-traditional 1L at MSU right now...Im in my 30s with a wife and young son. I chose to move to E.L. (my family stayed behind in metro-Detroit area). The weekdays are very busy, and I always get to go home on the weekends. I am friends with about three other non-traditional, older students and it is definitely do-able, though I have to admit that I might have had quite a few problems if I stayed at home and tried to get all of this workload done during the week. Its A LOT.

I know of others with kids, too...and so far, the professors seem to genuinely understand the inevitable complications that come with being a law school student/parent.

I dont know if that helps. Feel free to ask me more.

As I currently work full time, I'm totally accustomed to having no life (part of the reason why I'm hoping to share a place with another grad student with kid is so that I can pretend to be social after my DD and I get home). I am curious about how the 1L course scheduling is set. I gather it's by section for the first year and then you can pretty much choose your own classes after that? If that's the case, have you found that non-trads with kiddos have been able to be placed in sections that don't have class after 5 or before 9?

Also, do you know anyone working in the urban ag practicum? I would love to learn more about how that's unfolding.

Thanks!

The first semester you are put in your section and that is pretty much that. There are four of them, and at least one section has a class at 8:30 am (...mine, actually). The 2nd semester of 1L you get the chance to jump to another section if you want. I personally didn't because I liked only having three real days of high-volume workload.

I know there IS flexibility. You can appeal and get moved. The only thing is that you can't cross sections. If you take one class in a section, you take them all.

I dont know of anyone going past 5pm unless it is for RWA/Advocacy, and in the second semester, you control that. The first semester, your schedule is very much at their mercy.

As for clinics/focus areas...I really can't speak on that. Maybe the OP can. I will tell you this: have an open mind about concentrations and the like, since it just might change, and your first year leaves you ZERO opportunity to pursue any of that. In fact, all of the clinics and journals and societies arent open to 1Ls anyway. Except maybe the SBA (Student Bar).

Hope that helps!

Hi,

What is the workload like at MSU for 1L's, and is it feasible to get a part time job during law school (during 1L, 2L, or 3L)? I have a 100% tuition for MSU and will likely go so I'm trying to gauge some things.


THANKS!

I would also like to know what sort of questions you wish you had asked of current students, alumni and faculty back when you were an 0L weighing your options.

I'm getting ready for an alumni luncheon this weekend and cannot believe ASD is just a few weeks away, so I'm working on my "Intelligent Questions" list.

How are people with no ties to Michigan doing with the job market?

llachans wrote:How are people with no ties to Michigan doing with the job market?

I second this. I'm strongly considering MSU but, with no ties to the region, I'm looking at a disadvantage. MSU's placement data, of course, would suggest that having no ties to a particular region is not a significant hurdle...but I've heard otherwise on TLS.

I know that being ok with staying in MI is not enough to persuade an employer to overlook one's lack of ties, in most cases...so, to reiterate, how are the ties-less people from MSU doing?

danicab wrote:

llachans wrote:How are people with no ties to Michigan doing with the job market?

I second this. I'm strongly considering MSU but, with no ties to the region, I'm looking at a disadvantage. MSU's placement data, of course, would suggest that having no ties to a particular region is not a significant hurdle...but I've heard otherwise on TLS.

I know that being ok with staying in MI is not enough to persuade an employer to overlook one's lack of ties, in most cases...so, to reiterate, how are the ties-less people from MSU doing?

The problem is that MSU students WITH TIES to Michigan aren't even doing well. While the economy in the Metro Detroit area is improving, the legal market is still pretty weak. According to NLJ250 reports, MSU is placing less than 6% of their grads in NLJ250 firms. I think Mich has like 4 or 5 firms in the NLJ250. On top of that, there are very few firms in Michigan that pay close to market ie 70-100k. I think there are only like 10-15 or so. The problem is that most of the firms outside the top 5-6 in Michigan only take 1-2 SA per class.

I have a friend who is at MSU law and he told me in order to be competitive for these positions you need to be in the top 10% of your class.

You should check the profiles of lawyers from major firms in the Detroit area and see how many of them went to Ugrad outside of Michigan. That should give you a clear indication of how the legal market is for people without ties to Michigan.

People in the Midwest are generally very skeptical about people wanting to settle in the midwest. We generally have an inferiority complex and assume that people without ties work in the midwest and then get the hell out after they gain enough experience.

ccorra01 wrote:Hi,

What is the workload like at MSU for 1L's, and is it feasible to get a part time job during law school (during 1L, 2L, or 3L)? I have a 100% tuition for MSU and will likely go so I'm trying to gauge some things.


THANKS!

Okay...first...the workload is insane, and I would not recommend trying to work part-time. The ABA actually wont allow law students to work more than 12-15 hours a week.

But again, to reiterate: The 1L workload is insane. It is doable, though. I go back home every weekend (to Detroit) and I rarely touch any school work the whole time. It can be done. Im not sure that the workload will be any different anywhere else. 1L is 1L wherever you are.

accidentalhippy wrote:I would also like to know what sort of questions you wish you had asked of current students, alumni and faculty back when you were an 0L weighing your options.

I'm getting ready for an alumni luncheon this weekend and cannot believe ASD is just a few weeks away, so I'm working on my "Intelligent Questions" list.

This is the most important advice I can give you: Your questions are going to be answered by people that want your tuition money. They are recruiters and they are playing a game. Law school is NOTHING like the recruitment/admissions dog and pony show. Nothing at all.

If I could have, I would have asked current students what they REALLY thought about law school. Many would tell you that if they had the chance to do it again, they wouldn't. If I could have had a candid conversation with professors, many of them would have told me that law school really ought to be thought about in a critical and discriminatory manner. They would tell you that the market is terrible, that the law school experience is all about jumping through hoops so the school can get the US News rankings to climb, and that the tuition is prohibitively expensive for a field with, realistically, a 40% job placement. In fact, one professor told us all that we should seriously consider dropping while the refundin' was good...and another tell us that we should probably have gone to business school.

I don't mean to dissuade you (and I know that whatever I say will NOT, since none of this stopped me from going), but there it is. Weigh this decision very, very carefully.

thexfactor wrote:

danicab wrote:

llachans wrote:How are people with no ties to Michigan doing with the job market?

I second this. I'm strongly considering MSU but, with no ties to the region, I'm looking at a disadvantage. MSU's placement data, of course, would suggest that having no ties to a particular region is not a significant hurdle...but I've heard otherwise on TLS.

I know that being ok with staying in MI is not enough to persuade an employer to overlook one's lack of ties, in most cases...so, to reiterate, how are the ties-less people from MSU doing?

The problem is that MSU students WITH TIES to Michigan aren't even doing well. While the economy in the Metro Detroit area is improving, the legal market is still pretty weak. According to NLJ250 reports, MSU is placing less than 6% of their grads in NLJ250 firms. I think Mich has like 4 or 5 firms in the NLJ250. On top of that, there are very few firms in Michigan that pay close to market ie 70-100k. I think there are only like 10-15 or so. The problem is that most of the firms outside the top 5-6 in Michigan only take 1-2 SA per class.

I have a friend who is at MSU law and he told me in order to be competitive for these positions you need to be in the top 10% of your class.

You should check the profiles of lawyers from major firms in the Detroit area and see how many of them went to Ugrad outside of Michigan. That should give you a clear indication of how the legal market is for people without ties to Michigan.

People in the Midwest are generally very skeptical about people wanting to settle in the midwest. We generally have an inferiority complex and assume that people without ties work in the midwest and then get the hell out after they gain enough experience.

Let's be fair about this. It isnt an MSU problem or a Michigan problem...its a LAW problem. This market is on its last legs as far as traditional notions of lawyering go. The placement rate of law grads is preposterously low everywhere in the country. I have a friend who got his JD at New York Law last year and he is working in a shoe store.

However, one unique Michigan problem is Cooley. that turd of a school is based in MI, and it doesn't have quite the same god-awful reputation here that it does everywhere else. Cooley pumps out three times as many grads as the other law schools in the state and they do it on a different schedule than everyone else. What happens is this: You apply for a summer externship at the earliest possible date. Oops! Sorry. Cooley clowns have all been applying for a month...and the positions are almost all full. -_-

That said: MSU has a wonderful reputation. It is a Big Ten school (ahem - March Madness) and a very good research university. The students are all very nice. Honestly. There is no cut-throat antics here. There are always clowns wherever you go, but on average, the people here are easy enough to get along with. Or to avoid.