University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

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dontknowwhereimgoin
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby dontknowwhereimgoin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:40 am

minnbills wrote:
dontknowwhereimgoin wrote:Shown great courage in the face of a significant headwind.



The guy practically has a fan club here, don't know what you're talking about with this.

Considering how UMN dominates its market (and that daniel is supposedly from MN) I don't think it's hard to imagine how referring to your school as a: "festering pile of shit" and trashing it on an anonymous message board would annoy some alumni.


Well, actually being on campus I can attest to the fact that his supporters there are less, shall we say, vocal, than his detractors. Additionally, he has much more to lose by being critical of the school than by toeing the campus line. I would submit that this represents if not courage than at least an honorable dissent from school dogma that most other law school attendees who have valid criticisms of their school, yet remain silent out of misplaced deference or phlegmaticness, lack.

As an alumnus I would be less concerned at Daniel's hyperbolic language, than I would be at the poor argumentative techniques employed by Daniel's detractors that attend UMN. Acting like the school is immune from criticism-- even, as I called it, "salty" criticism-- demonstrates weak-kneed complacence. Your attempt to disparage Daniel's criticisms as "anonymous message board trashing" endeavors to discredit his positions because they 1) occurred online; and 2) were critical. Nowhere in either point do I find any reference to a weakness in his facility in arguing his points, which I would think would be paramount in an evaluation of his critique on its merits. I can only surmise his reason for resorting to an "anonymous message board" is that this particular board caters to the audience he seeks to inform. If he chooses to be critical, or praiseworthy, or whatever, I could care less, so long as he is providing valuable information. When you say he is "trashing" the school you necessarily imply his critiques approximate those one might find in the National Enquirer or the New York Post ( :D ). However, I have failed to see anyone point out a single argumentative flaw in Daniel's criticisms that was either material or not promptly rebutted and dismissed by him.

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minnbills
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby minnbills » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:10 am

dontknowwhereimgoin wrote:When you say he is "trashing" the school you necessarily imply his critiques approximate those one might find in the National Enquirer or the New York Post ( ).


No, it doesn't. Though you're right that I was charactarizing it pejoratively.

I don't think anyone would question that Dan can write effectively and is good at framing his battles to his advantage. I.E posting pics of stains without mentioning the budget problems that led to less cleaning.

But, going off the alumni I know as well as being a Minnesotan and thus knowing how provincial this area is I would expect UMN alumni to be less than thrilled with his comments. And yes, I have yet to meet one in person who didn't enjoy their experience and think highly of the school.

In the end, I'm not a law student at UMN and I've already said more than I should. So I'll leave it to the current students and alumni to continue this, I overstepped my bounds a long time ago.

dontknowwhereimgoin
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby dontknowwhereimgoin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:19 am

minnbills wrote:
dontknowwhereimgoin wrote:When you say he is "trashing" the school you necessarily imply his critiques approximate those one might find in the National Enquirer or the New York Post ( ).


No, it doesn't. Though you're right that I was charactarizing it pejoratively.

I don't think anyone would question that Dan can write effectively and is good at framing his battles to his advantage. I.E posting pics of stains without mentioning the budget problems that led to less cleaning.

But, going off the alumni I know as well as being a Minnesotan and thus knowing how provincial this area is I would expect UMN alumni to be less than thrilled with his comments. And yes, I have yet to meet one in person who didn't enjoy their experience and think highly of the school.

In the end, I'm not a law student at UMN and I've already said more than I should. So I'll leave it to the current students and alumni to continue this, I overstepped my bounds a long time ago.


Forgive me my loose use of "necessarily." I see you have been assiduously studying LSAT problems :P.

I think it's pretty sad that provincialism of any stripe can effect one's judgment so detrimentally.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:44 am

minnbills wrote:The guy practically has a fan club here, don't know what you're talking about with this.

Considering how UMN dominates its market (and that daniel is supposedly from MN) I don't think it's hard to imagine how referring to your school as a: "festering pile of shit" and trashing it on an anonymous message board would annoy some alumni.


This is the second time you've claimed that I specifically called UMN a "festering pile of shit," inside quotation marks. Once again, I do not believe I ever called it that, although the sentiment is roughly correct. It's just odd that of all the witty zingers I've cast at UMN, you've chosen to quote me something I never uttered.

And you're saying that alumni would hold it against me personally that I "trashed" UMN anonymously? Wait, what?! If anonymity holds, then how could they hold it against me?

Anyway, I think the point that dontknowwhereimgoin (thanks for the kind words, btw) is making is that UMN-3L's quasi-threat didn't make much sense in the first place. Paraphrased, the gist of her threat was something like: "If you keep saying bad things about UMN, then you're not gonna get a job." Not since I realized that there was no bogieman beneath my bed has a threat sounded quite so empty. Anyway, the point is that I haven't done anything wrong. I mean, not even borderline.

I've had a truly rotten law school experience at UMN Law. And I wrote about it in a forum for law students to share their experience with prospective law students. Oh, sin of sins! I'm sure that Senior Partner X is going to look at this and say to herself, "What?! This guy doesn't love his law school? Well, that's it! I'm not hiring him!" It's just ridiculous.

It was a stupid proposition, stupidly framed, in a pretty transparently obvious (and lame) attempt to "scare" me into being quiet about UMN's supernumerary faults. Why did UMN-3L care what I thought or posted in the first place? I'm chalking it up to childish, tribalistic school pride, but I really don't know. Anyway, obviously, I don't think much of UMN-3L's feigned concern for my career prospects.


minnbills wrote:... I would expect UMN alumni to be less than thrilled with his comments.


Why not? I went to NYU undergrad. I am a proud alumnus of that school. If someone criticized NYU, provided they had legitimate reasons for doing so, I wouldn't hold that against them. In fact, I find it hard to see myself caring at all what they thought of it. I suppose I'd disagree with them, but I probably wouldn't care enough to even voice that disagreement, much less let it affect my hiring and firing decisions, if I were in such a position.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:27 am

daniel3.14 wrote:And for your information, despite my 1L Fall exam snafu, my future career prospects have taken a dramatic albeit freakish turn for the better. Without divulging too much, it suffices to say that I expect to be doing considerably better than 99% of law students upon graduation -- and no, this doesn't change my opinion of UMN, and no, I don't feel any gratitude to UMN for my recent turn of good fortune, because the school had nothing to do with it.

[...]

And on top of that, odds are pretty overwhelming that my career situation is more promising than yours at this point. So, let's not attribute an honest, sincere, and justified perspective to externalities, okay?


Touchy, touchy, Daniel. (If I cared, I'd point out that I have never heard of 2Ls receiving offers for permanent employment after graduation before their summer clerkships, so you're probably grandstanding if you claim that your career situation is "more promising" than mine is, "at this point." Although how that in any way relates to the debate at hand, except in your own hypersensitive, uber-combative perception of reality, I honestly don't know. But don't worry, I'm really not as committed as some to embroidering my online persona--I have a real life identity--so feel free to continue the braggadocio.) Perhaps you were so incensed by my critique of your unprofessional conduct that you didn't process this comment (which I've repeated multiple times): I have no personal animus against you. I do not wish you ill; I just don't think that you represent the majority of UMN students.

I felt compelled to create an alternative thread (which you, as would any troll, I suppose, have relentlessly tried to dominate; did I ever post on your obscenity-laden thread?) for three reasons:

1) I disagree with your sensationalist characterizations of our school.

There are many flaws in your presentation; your vituperative claims about the school and long-winded characterizations of how you ended up in the bottom quartile are specious and self-serving. And they reveal a highly suspect motive for your multimedia campaign against the school. Most of us just don't have the time or impetus to engage you point-for-point and showcase these glaring fallacies. Your argumentative strategy is based on sheer stamina. Unfortunately, lawyers are rewarded for concision, not obstinate, irrational repetition.

2) I think that your experience is not representative of our school and is a product of your own "unique" personality.

I hate to break it to you, Daniel, but, since you seem to have some trouble understanding this one fundamental truth: law school (if it's any good) is tough. It has to be to prepare you for the legal field. If it were easy to get (and stay) in the top quartile, the quartile system would be moot. UMN is a good law school, therefore students who come here will nurtured but not coddled. If a student comes to UMN with a chip on his shoulder, convinced that the rules apply to everyone but him, he will quickly learn otherwise (as you did, Daniel, during you ExamSoft "snafu"). If you can't function, i.e. can't be bothered with deadlines, you will be penalized. Period. Of course, as a consolation, you can spend countless hours after the fact crafting an alternative reality online to solace yourself.

3) I think that your behavior on this forum is professionally counter-productive and sets a bad example.

For everyone else who has or would like a professional career (excluding Daniel, of course, since he is obviously above such plebian concerns): whatever your personal opinion is, you may not want to become known as the person who publicly refers to his or her school as a "big brick of sh*t." Rumor flies fast in the legal community (Above the Law, anyone?) and online childishness like that violates the professional standards of every single legal work environment I can think of off the top of my head. A prolific online history of smear campaigns against one's educational institution would probably make most employers skittish about hiring a candidate. Technical skill is of little value when someone doesn't have enough sense not to publicly embarrass his or her employer, and most professional employers are sensitive about the information that potential or current employees may disseminate about them online.

I think that everyone should be honest about his/her perspective on his/her school, but, if you choose to be outrageous, please try to be discreet with your online persona. Daniel's is a cautionary tale of how your online identity can become linked to your actual identity. Plus, as far as personal opinion goes, most people (in any field) don't respect anyone who bites the hand that feeds, whether he is being "fed" with with a scholarship or a salary.

Common sense advice:
Students should give some thought to how they present themselves to the world, whether that's in the classroom or on social media, says Robert Schwartz, dean of admissions and financial aid at the University of California--Los Angeles School of Law.
http://news.yahoo.com/law-students-face-higher-consequences-online-163043634.html

A few examples of how quickly bored law students will "rat" on fellow students when they behave indiscreetly online or via email: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/11/student-rats-out-professor-then-flips-off-rest-of-class/, http://gawker.com/5529322/racist-harvard-law-email-the-cat-fight-that-turned-into-a-national-scandal

An example of how using inappropriate language in social media got one lawyer fired: http://goingpaperlessblog.com/2011/02/28/lawyer-fired-for-comment-made-on-twitter/

Good luck to you this summer, Daniel, and I genuinely mean that. Good luck to everyone who is trying to get into their top choice law school, everyone in law school trying to get a job, and everyone in law school (or the legal field) trying to keep the job they have.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:14 am

UMN-3L wrote:Touchy, touchy, Daniel. (If I cared, I'd point out that I have never heard of 2Ls receiving offers for permanent employment after graduation before their summer clerkships, so you're probably grandstanding if you claim that your career situation is "more promising" than mine is, "at this point." Although how that in any way relates to the debate at hand, except in your own hypersensitive, uber-combative perception of reality, I honestly don't know. But don't worry, I'm really not as committed as some to embroidering my online persona--I have a real life identity--so feel free to continue the braggadocio.) Perhaps you were so incensed by my critique of your unprofessional conduct that you didn't process this comment (which I've repeated multiple times): I have no personal animus against you. I do not wish you ill; I just don't think that you represent the majority of UMN students.


What is wrong with you? Seriously, do you have some sort of mental problem?

You started this crap about my career with your bizarre fixation on how much "damage" the thread I posted here will cause my career. I point out that my career prospects are doing quite well, thank you very much. I was responding to you, and now you're acting like I brought it up out of nowhere? As if I were trying to show off? Idiot? You brought it up.

And while it may upset your snooty, myopic worldview, not everyone's future plans revolve around siphoning fecal matter out of a "senior partner's" tightly clenched sphincter. In fact, I feel fairly comfortable saying right here that I have absolutely zero respect for anyone with the title of "senior partner." Am I blowing your mind? And you know what else? I'm not going to do a summer clerkship. I'm not applying anywhere for a summer clerkship. Not looking, not interested. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, if someone begged me to take a summer clerkship, I'd decline. And you know what I think about your "3L advice"? I think you can shove it. I need your career advice like I need an ice pick in my eye socket. I'm sure your head is about to explode, since it simply does not compute that a 2L would not supplicate himself entirely to the mentorship of a 3L, who is offering career advice and paternalistic admonitions.

And here's the coup de grâce: I'm not going to work in law after I graduate!

UMN-3L wrote:I felt compelled to create an alternative thread (which you, as would any troll, I suppose, have relentlessly tried to dominate; did I ever post on your obscenity-laden thread?) for three reasons:


Troll? Again, troll? Why don't you look up the definition of "troll" before you blindly hurl insults. And the vast majority of the obscenity you will find on the other thread is coming from two or three UMN loyalists much like yourself.

I will grant that you never posted on that thread. No, no. Instead, you started a new thread, which you kicked off by citing the other thread, undermining my credibility, characterizing me as "angry" (from which I suppose you infer "unreasonable"), and posting at length about how much "damage" this will do to my "career" (as you continue to do). So, yeah, you chose a considerably more underhanded route than your obscenity-spewing brethren.

UMN-3L wrote:1) I disagree with your sensationalist characterizations of our school.

There are many flaws in your presentation; your vituperative claims about the school and long-winded characterizations of how you ended up in the bottom quartile are specious and self-serving. And they reveal a highly suspect motive for your multimedia campaign against the school. Most of us just don't have the time or impetus to engage you point-for-point and showcase these glaring fallacies. Your argumentative strategy is based on sheer stamina. Unfortunately, lawyers are rewarded for concision, not obstinate, irrational repetition.


Sensationalist? Flaws? Specious? Glaring fallacies? Your merely declaring such characterizations does not make them the case. When someone presents a fallacious argument against me, I don't just say it's a fallacy. I explain why it's fallacious -- as I've been doing with your fecund posts. So, where has my reasoning been fallacious? Point it out. Diagram an argument and show me where I've gone wrong. Do you even know what a fallacy is?

And I mentioned the Examsoft snafu in passing in response to a question. It's you and the other imbecilic UMN "defenders" who have brought this incident up over and over again (usually in a misguided attempt to imply that I couldn't get better scores, by omitting the additional information that I was in the top 10% the very next semester). And yet again like a broken record, you impute that this was a major reason for my negative characterization of UMN, even though I've provided scads of other substantive reasons why UMN is an abysmal school, which you conveniently "forget" to address.

UMN-3L wrote:2) I think that your experience is not representative of our school and is a product of your own "unique" personality.

I hate to break it to you, Daniel, but, since you seem to have some trouble understanding this one fundamental truth: law school (if it's any good) is tough. It has to be to prepare you for the legal field. If it were easy to get (and stay) in the top quartile, the quartile system would be moot. UMN is a good law school, therefore students who come here will nurtured but not coddled. If a student comes to UMN with a chip on his shoulder, convinced that the rules apply to everyone but him, he will quickly learn otherwise (as you did, Daniel, during you ExamSoft "snafu"). If you can't function, i.e. can't be bothered with deadlines, you will be penalized. Period. Of course, as a consolation, you can spend countless hours after the fact crafting an alternative reality online to solace yourself.


Alternate reality? You're the one who keeps bringing up the Examsoft snafu. I'm over it. In fact, I'm ready to be done with this place altogether. All I've done was to describe what happened, and what the school is like. I'm the one who posted actual pictures of the dump of a school. I've tried to keep my opinions close to the facts. And I've provided a lot of facts. Your posts by contrast tend to focus on fantasizing about my career, speculating about my motives, and lecturing the world about the hiring practices of law firms. Which leads me to point out: You are not a lawyer. You have never hired anyone to work at a law firm. What you know about law firm hiring practices is not information that anyone else couldn't discover on their own. You have no privileged information in this regard, because you are just another law student. I'm sure you're going to be obnoxiously preachy when you finally land that big law job, but you just aren't in a position to be quite that douchy just yet.

I find it ironic that you accuse me of being "repetitious." Now I'll admit that it's true, I keep pointing out that I thought the school was a piece of crap well before the exam policies would have any effect. I keep pointing out that I followed all the rules, and that I did download the software and I did log in to my account, but that the exams inexplicably failed to download, despite my doing everything I was supposed to do. And I keep pointing out that this is really a pretty minor reason not to come to UMN, compared with the myriad other faults I have enumerated. So, I apologize for being "repetitious," but if you'd stop repeating the same refuted claims over and over, then you'd save me the trouble of refuting them over and over. How about that?

And by the way, the reason I call you "condescending" is because you use phrases like, "I hate to break it to you, Daniel, but, since you seem to have some trouble understanding this one fundamental truth..." Now, I hate to break it to you, but that's called "condescending." And that's fine, if you want to take that tone. Just don't deny it, when it's so obviously what you're doing.

UMN-3L wrote:3) I think that your behavior on this forum is professionally counter-productive and sets a bad example.

For everyone else who has or would like a professional career (excluding Daniel, of course, since he is obviously above such plebian concerns): whatever your personal opinion is, you may not want to become known as the person who publicly refers to his or her school as a "big brick of sh*t." Rumor flies fast in the legal community (Above the Law, anyone?) and online childishness like that violates the professional standards of every single legal work environment I can think of off the top of my head. A prolific online history of smear campaigns against one's educational institution would probably make most employers skittish about hiring [Blah, blah blah...]


Seriously, will you ever just shut up about my career? I do not respect your opinion. I do not want your advice. My post-law school plans are more than satisfactory, and they don't involve legal work. Even if they did, I still would not want your advice. I could not possibly care less about your advice. I consider it worthless. I find litter on the street more valuable than your advice. Do not give me any more advice. Seriously, you sound like you're retarded when you keep offering me this vapid advice about managing my "online identity." Get it through your thick skull, I think your knowledge about the legal profession is useless. Even if it weren't, I still wouldn't want to hear it.

It is so freaking obvious what you're doing. Here's your bizarre little plan: you're childishly trying to "scare" me into not posting anymore, by regaling me with "scary stories" about how someone's "online reputation" hurt their future career prospects. It's not working. It's not going to work. And I frankly find your whole way of thinking disgusting and despicable. I think that anyone who's unhappy with their school should articulate loudly and clearly why that is, so that other people can avoid that place if they anticipate being similarly unhappy there. You do realize that it's because of duplicitous, smarmy, unctuous people like you that students end up at schools they end up hating. You are the problem.

And as has been discussed above, your bizarre fantasy where some senior partner at a law firm refuses to hire me because of what I've posted here is totally bunk anyway. Even if employers were leery of hiring disloyal employees, or people with checkered histories, due to stuff they dredge up on the internet, I seriously doubt anyone equates employer loyalty with school loyalty. And I would be very surprised if any law firm would even care that a law student posted negative things (like... pictures of his school) on an online forum for law students to talk about their law schools. Why would they hold that against anyone? Seriously, I haven't done anything even slightly wrong here. My posting here is neutral at worst. Indeed, I'd like to think it's been helpful to prospective students. And there have been a number of posts (and I've received a large number of PMs) indicating that my posts have been useful. Why would an employer find that objectionable?

Now, since you don't seem to understand the difference between schools and employers, I will spell it out. An employer pays its employees. The employees are the ones working for the employer. With law school, it's the student who pays the school. The student doesn't owe anything to the school beyond that. There is nothing in the admission packet, nor rules of conduct, nor anything else that requires or even suggests that "loyalty" to the institution is expected. Nor should it be. The way for a school to earn good reviews, satisfied alums, and loyalty is to be a good school. This place is an absolute dump, both literally and figuratively. Since you conveniently ignore any criticisms of the school that don't involve me personally (which, as flattering as your obsession with me may be, is really just a smokescreen to divert attention from the fact that I've listed numerous problems with the school that don't hinge upon my personal experience), allow me to repeat them here: the crappy LW and PP adjuncts; the ridiculous and poorly-thought-out curriculum, which resulted in the decision to include P&P as a graded and required 1L course (contrary to the preferences of the professors of the course!), which caused threats of a walk-out and a widespread protest; the obsolete and failing classroom infrastructure (including extremely buggy Wifi); the laptop program, which forces you to purchase the ugliest, heaviest, crappiest computer for quadruple what it's worth, and which does not allow you to opt out or upgrade the piece of junk; the embarrassingly poor placement outside of the Twin Cities legal market, which cannot come close to supporting the number of graduates that UMN (in addition to WM, UST, and Hamline) pumps out; and a generally recalcitrant and incompetent administration, which regards the students at the school as being an inconvenience.

And I'll leave you with this: you can dress up as "professionally" as you want. You can put on a sharp business suit, and you can get Office Depot to print you out some embossed business cards, and you can wrap your hair up in a bun, and you can affect a stilted "professional" diction, and you can go to sleep every night basking in the professionalism of your professional profession -- but here's the thing: all the "professionalism" in the world does not make up for being stupid. And your inability to comprehend or respond to new information, your inability to suss out details in argumentation, your poor reasoning skills, and your jingoistic, tribal insistence on toeing the company line all add up to one thing: "stupid." And you can be as "professional" as you please -- the only thing that makes you is a "stupid professional."

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somewherewarm
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby somewherewarm » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:20 pm

If I may add to this, the ongoing saga of Daniel v. UMN-3L/Minnballs has been a very entertaining diversion while enjoying the doldrums of LSAT studying. When I click on "Ask a Law Student" and see "University of Minnesota 2L/3L Taking Questions" at the top of the list, I'm overcome with excitement.

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kerflux
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby kerflux » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:59 am

daniel3.14 wrote: duplicitous, smarmy, unctuous people

I'm not gay, but it may be that I've fallen in love with you for actually using the word "unctuous." Honestly, though, thanks for a candid assessment. The fact that you're evidently mortgaging your future to provide us with your viewpoint is laudable.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:33 am

kerflux wrote:
daniel3.14 wrote: duplicitous, smarmy, unctuous people

I'm not gay, but it may be that I've fallen in love with you for actually using the word "unctuous." Honestly, though, thanks for a candid assessment. The fact that you're evidently mortgaging your future to provide us with your viewpoint is laudable.


Thanks for the kind words.

To clarify though, I don't believe I'm "mortgaging" my future. Suppose that UMN-3L is correct about law firms investigating the online activities of potential employees before making a hire. So what? Firstly, I'm not going to work for a law firm after I get out of here, so I really just couldn't care less. But even if I did want a law firm job, why would this hurt me? What have I done "wrong" here? Suppose they ran across my TLS postings. Why would this hurt me?

I've divulged a large number of facts, provided evidence supporting my claims, and posted a frank and honest assessment about my law school experience in a forum intended for law students to share their experiences with prospective students. What is wrong with that? So my experience happened to be negative. So what? In what insane parallel universe do people hold it against you when you express negative opinions about things in a forum intended for you to express your opinions about things?

Pretty much every criticism of me (including UMN-3L's) boils down to one thing: I haven't shown "school pride". That's what's pissing them off, and that's the only thing that's pissing them off. They don't dispute anything I've said factually. The only genuine attempt to address any of my criticisms was to offer some lame (and easily rebutted) speculation about why the school felt the need to chain down its furniture -- which was never a major criticism of the school in the first place. No, the only thing that anyone "opposing me" here on TLS has really had to say was that I didn't show sufficient "school pride." And apparently, "school pride" for these people entails covering up embarrassing facts about the school, suppressing photos showing what a dump the actual physical building happens to be, diluting valid criticisms by claiming that "every law school" has the same problems, despite the fact that UMN suffers those problems to a far greater degree, dismissing serious and disturbing defects by saying that they're "not a big deal," and attempting to personally attack anyone who has the temerity to criticize their school.

Oh, right, and then there's the classiest move of all: Intimating that employers will find a student's negative criticism of his own school to be grounds for not hiring that student. This nifty proposition follows from the outlandish belief that the student-school relationship is analogous to the employee-employer relationship, and requires the even stranger premise that apart from giving three years of my life and paying thousands of dollars in tuition, I still "owe" the school fealty. This most peculiar expression of school pride, which UMN-3L has so expertly executed, has the dual benefit of being both sleazy and preposterous. That is, unless she never really believed it in the first place, and was only spouting it in a vain attempt to get me to shut up, in which case it's just sleazy.

Anyway, to summarize: even if I wanted a law firm job (which I'm not looking for), and even if potential employers happened upon this thread, I don't believe they would find this the slightest bit troubling. Indeed, I find it comical how "scandalous" these UMN apologists find my postings to be. As if it's news to anyone that UMN is a crap hole. As if my divulging of the secrets of the "chains and stains" of Mondale Hall were such an unthinkable act of betrayal, it earns me a place beside Brutus, Cassius, and Judas in Dante's Ninth Circle of hell. Frankly, I would find these "people" to be laughable if they weren't so disturbing.

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kerflux
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby kerflux » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:45 pm

Oh, I didn't slap enough sarcasm on the latter portion of my statement. The idea that any employer worth working for would scour TLS boards and happen across this is almost as ridiculous as thinking that it would matter if they did.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:40 pm

kerflux wrote:Oh, I didn't slap enough sarcasm on the latter portion of my statement. The idea that any employer worth working for would scour TLS boards and happen across this is almost as ridiculous as thinking that it would matter if they did.


Oops! Apologies. My sarcasm detector was malfunctioning. Carry on...

Kenobi
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby Kenobi » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:29 pm

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Last edited by Kenobi on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aten2080
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby aten2080 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:45 pm

Hey Everyone,

I applied early decision at Minnesota and they said they would email a decision by Dec. 1st but my application status still says "under review." Should I contact the admissions office or should I wait it out?

Thanks!

UMN-3L
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:25 am

somewherewarm wrote:If I may add to this, the ongoing saga of Daniel v. UMN-3L/Minnballs has been a very entertaining diversion while enjoying the doldrums of LSAT studying. When I click on "Ask a Law Student" and see "University of Minnesota 2L/3L Taking Questions" at the top of the list, I'm overcome with excitement.


LOL, I know; it has kind of become my guilty pleasure. (Usually, I know better than to argue with trolls.) But I've said my piece to Daniel 3.14 and I think he's said his to me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will no longer address comments to him.

If anyone wants to ask Daniel's opinion of UMN, I suggest they address those questions to him on his thread, "UMN 2L..." I'll check back periodically and answer any questions addressed to me on this thread. As has been made clear, Daniel 3.14 and I have "divergent" views of UMN.

UMN-3L
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:37 am

aten2080 wrote:Hey Everyone,

I applied early decision at Minnesota and they said they would email a decision by Dec. 1st but my application status still says "under review." Should I contact the admissions office or should I wait it out?

Thanks!


If you haven't heard back yet, I suggest that you contact them and let them know that you are interested in attending the school. It certainly can't hurt. Good luck!

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somewherewarm
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby somewherewarm » Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:41 pm

Thanks for taking questions UMN-3L! I was wondering, if you were to start the application process all over again, as an 0L, would you still attend UMN, and what other schools would you consider outside of the T17? This question applies to any of the UMN students on this thread, I'd be particularly interested in hearing Daniel Pi's if he's still around.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:59 pm

somewherewarm wrote:... if you were to start the application process all over again, as an 0L, would you still attend UMN, and what other schools would you consider outside of the T17?


Hi somewherewarm!

Would I still attend UMN if I were to start the application process all over again? Ummmmmm... well, I'd have to say I'm sort of, kind of, maybe leaning towards nah.

No, I would not choose to attend UMN. Other schools outside T17 that I would consider?

Well assuming I weren't just spamming schools with apps, and excluding anything above Vandy, my choices would probably be 1) USC, 2) Fordham/UC Davis, 4) GWU, 5) William and Mary. It'd be a tossup between UC Davis and Fordham. Those would be my applications, and my order of preference. The disparity in money would have to be pretty extreme for me to deviate from that order of preference.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MidwestJosh » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:51 pm

Hi all,

Another 3L here, to hop in the mix. Congrats to the newly admitted students and best of luck to everyone that's pending! Get your apps in ASAP if you haven't. Remember - you're something like 80% less likely to be admitted if you apply in Feb than if you apply in Nov.

I'd be happy to answer questions as well, and I'm more than happy to give candid answers.

Best,

--Josh

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MormonChristian
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MormonChristian » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:48 am

MidwestJosh wrote:Hi all,

Another 3L here, to hop in the mix. Congrats to the newly admitted students and best of luck to everyone that's pending! Get your apps in ASAP if you haven't. Remember - you're something like 80% less likely to be admitted if you apply in Feb than if you apply in Nov.

I'd be happy to answer questions as well, and I'm more than happy to give candid answers.

Best,

--Josh



Do you interact with many patent law students? Can you tell me much about the program besides what is listed on the webpages?

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MidwestJosh
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:00 am

MormonChristian wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:Hi all,

Another 3L here, to hop in the mix. Congrats to the newly admitted students and best of luck to everyone that's pending! Get your apps in ASAP if you haven't. Remember - you're something like 80% less likely to be admitted if you apply in Feb than if you apply in Nov.

I'd be happy to answer questions as well, and I'm more than happy to give candid answers.

Best,

--Josh



Do you interact with many patent law students? Can you tell me much about the program besides what is listed on the webpages?



I know a few, yes. My 1L roommate actually took the patent bar just prior to the school year beginning. He is a joint-degree student, getting a masters in Chemistry on top of his JD. He moved here from the East Coast and, like many students (70% of our matriculants come from out of state), fell in love with the area. There are a surprising number of firms in the Twin Cities that specifically focus on patent litigation. I'm not positive, but I think he has an offer at one of the larger ones. He has been involved with a IP student group that was very active in networking.

Like me, he spent a lot of time and money applying to, visiting, and ultimately choosing a law school. I actually met him right here on TLS. I know he's also very happy with the choice he made.

I apologize I can't speak more directly to the IP student experience; my concentration is labor and employment, but I'd be happy to get you the email address of a few IP focused students if you PM me.

--Josh

UMN-3L
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:07 am

somewherewarm wrote:Thanks for taking questions UMN-3L! I was wondering, if you were to start the application process all over again, as an 0L, would you still attend UMN, and what other schools would you consider outside of the T17? This question applies to any of the UMN students on this thread, I'd be particularly interested in hearing Daniel Pi's if he's still around.


Hi, Somewherewarm!

I was very employment-oriented in my approach. I looked at specific areas of the country when I was considering law school; I applied to schools around here because I wanted to work in the Midwest legal market. The crazy hours, high pressure, and slim availability of partnership at firms in the big New York and LA markets did not appeal to me, so I generally didn't apply to Top 10 schools that would have made it easier for me to compete in the "big time."

I think that, apart from rankings, identifying your goals is the best thing you can do when choosing law schools. Because of faculty connections, networking opportunities, and name recognition, it is a lot easier to enter the legal market where your law school is situated than to go into a distant one and compete against local law students (unless you're from one of the Top 3 law schools, I suppose, have other local ties, or have a special set of qualifications, like sitting for the Patents bar).

So I guess I'm saying that the answer is different for everyone. I would personally apply to UMN again, as well as the top law schools in the other smaller regional legal markets I considered for employment. That was my strategy. I recommend looking at your employment goals (region, job type, etc.) and then working backwards from there to figure out what your best options are.

Good luck!

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:57 am

UMN-3L wrote:Because of faculty connections, networking opportunities, and name recognition...


FYI, anyone willing to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a legal education and devote three years of his or her life to earning a J.D. these days is usually picking their law school based primarily on those criteria, in addition to the school's national ranking. And usually that person is putting him or herself through law school hell because s/he wants to come out of it with a legal job. This is why most other UMN law students (including me) on this forum pretty much laughed off certain strident complaints about UMN's chained projectors, occasionally tedious Practice & Professional classes, etc. Such things seem frivolous when compared to the advantages the school gives us. Like incredible professors who are also down to earth and approachable. (Seriously, what kind of person considering a law school would care enough about the furniture or the 1L legal writing requirement to let that affect whether they want to attend that school and be taught by its tenure track professors?)

We are taught by the sort of internationally recognized scholars--some of my favorites actually have spent or do regularly spend time teaching in foreign countries, as well--who also are cool with playing Mrs. Pacman against students at the local bar, taking entire classes out for a round at the pub across the street, or calling up partners they know at firms to make personal recommendations in addition to writing letters of recommendation. Also, in my opinion, the experiential opportunities are very well developed and supported, students can join clinics and represent real clients in real cases (including child advocacy, human rights, immigration, innocence project, etc.) from their second year onward. Compared with everything the school gives us, inflated and highly subjective complaints about inconsequential matters like the facilities and 2 minor and sometimes tedious ungraded classes in the 1L curriculum aren't worth addressing.

Plus, unattractive facilities and Practice & Professionalism/Legal Writing courses are not unique to UMN. Most of us just don't care; we get through them and then move on to pursue opportunities in areas that interest us.

t15orbust
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby t15orbust » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:14 am

UMN-3L wrote:
somewherewarm wrote:If I may add to this, the ongoing saga of Daniel v. UMN-3L/Minnballs has been a very entertaining diversion while enjoying the doldrums of LSAT studying. When I click on "Ask a Law Student" and see "University of Minnesota 2L/3L Taking Questions" at the top of the list, I'm overcome with excitement.


LOL, I know; it has kind of become my guilty pleasure. (Usually, I know better than to argue with trolls.) But I've said my piece to Daniel 3.14 and I think he's said his to me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I will no longer address comments to him.


@UMN-3L: You don't get to "LOL". We're not laughing WITH you, we're laughing AT you.

And you don't get to call a truce after the dude destroys you. Dude ran circles around you for three pages. You have to pay to see someone do that to someone else on the internet... assuming you're over the age of 18 and it's not illegal to view it where you live.

And now after the guy totally destroys you, you're saying that you "agree to disagree". At this point you have zero credibility.

@Daniel3.14: I have been lurking on these forums for a while, and I wanted to thank you for the entertainment and the information. Your classmates sound like they are pricks.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:18 am

t15orbust wrote:@Daniel3.14: I have been lurking on these forums for a while, and I wanted to thank you for the entertainment and the information. Your classmates sound like they are pricks.


Thanks for the support and kind words. By and large, I don't think that the students here are "pricks." Of the supernumerary problems that UMN suffers, the student body is not really one of them. And even if particular classes have their distinctive personalities, there's really no reason it would be consistent for a given school year-to-year anyway. Certainly, that should not be a reason not to come here (there are of course dozens of better reasons). I would concede that there is a palpable "high school" atmosphere that pervades the social interaction in law school, with some pretty shocking displays of childishness from time to time. Nevertheless, I am not willing to say that this amounts to a major problem, and I remain inclined to think that people like UMN-3L and the smattering of like-minded buffoons, who are susceptible to troglodytic sentiments like "group pride," are a minority of UMN students.

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MormonChristian
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MormonChristian » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:57 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
MormonChristian wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:Hi all,

Another 3L here, to hop in the mix. Congrats to the newly admitted students and best of luck to everyone that's pending! Get your apps in ASAP if you haven't. Remember - you're something like 80% less likely to be admitted if you apply in Feb than if you apply in Nov.

I'd be happy to answer questions as well, and I'm more than happy to give candid answers.

Best,

--Josh



Do you interact with many patent law students? Can you tell me much about the program besides what is listed on the webpages?



I know a few, yes. My 1L roommate actually took the patent bar just prior to the school year beginning. He is a joint-degree student, getting a masters in Chemistry on top of his JD. He moved here from the East Coast and, like many students (70% of our matriculants come from out of state), fell in love with the area. There are a surprising number of firms in the Twin Cities that specifically focus on patent litigation. I'm not positive, but I think he has an offer at one of the larger ones. He has been involved with a IP student group that was very active in networking.

Like me, he spent a lot of time and money applying to, visiting, and ultimately choosing a law school. I actually met him right here on TLS. I know he's also very happy with the choice he made.

I apologize I can't speak more directly to the IP student experience; my concentration is labor and employment, but I'd be happy to get you the email address of a few IP focused students if you PM me.

--Josh


Thanks for the response. I will do that as soon as I find out what kind of financial aid package UMN offers. I have heard great things about their IP programs. Which is specifically why I applied.




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