University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:49 am

UMN-3L wrote:Re: the Spartan reference. Simmer down; I was poking a little fun at you. (And yes, you "got me" about placing the apostrophe in the wrong place in "Athens." I had real work to do today, so I didn't spend too much time laboring over my response. However, I studied Classics in undergrad, so I am more likely to refer to the city as "Athenai" in Roman characters, if attempting to be serious.)


Great. Very impressive. Keep it up.

UMN-3L wrote:I'd like to reiterate, Daniel, that I did not start this thread to attack you. I am merely offering an alternative perspective because I disagree with what you said on your thread. Just as you have a right to share your opinion, I have the right to critique and disagree with it. I admonished your behavior in the beginning of this thread in an attempt to spell out for you the damage you were (and still are) doing to your professional reputation; I was concerned that you didn't understand how permanent a stain your behavior on this forum may turn out to be. (But why you believe that knowledge of the multimedia campaign you have launched against the school will remain in the Twin Cities legal community, especially when you chose the internet as the medium of your attack, I still do not know.) This, of course, is before you informed me that you had decided to commit professional suicide. You're right, it's none of my business.


Yup. It is none of your business, but there you go again, telling me what's good for me anyway -- as if being in law school for one year more than me somehow makes you so much more of an "expert" about the legal profession. Yeah, that may be one count against law school generally: this bizarre culture of supplication to seniority. I suspect that's probably the same at any school. I guess I have that to look forward to next year. I can condescendingly lecture 2Ls about what life is like in the fast lane, and tell them all about what a judge would do if they pulled that crap in a courtroom, or how that sort of conduct won't cut it at a law firm. Sounds fun. I guess that's just the circle of life and all. When a 3L acts like a condescending douchebag, it's called "mentoring."

As to the "damage" I'm doing to my "professional reputation"? "Permanent stain"? The only damage to my legal career has been the result of the idiotic policies of a brain-dead administration, applied to my particular case with the finesse and care of a wrecking ball. And just to set the record straight, the only "permanent stain" I have to contend with are the words "University of Minnesota Law School" on my resumé.

UMN-3L wrote:You are the one who came onto this thread and began referring to me quite derisively as "guy," (by the way, I'm actually a "girl"), "jerk," and now, apparently, "Beavus." (And after all of those holier-than-thou chastisements to other posters for using ad hominem attacks. Tsk, tsk, Daniel.)


Nice. "Tsk, tsk." Being the expert on good conduct that you are, I'm sure you realize that saying "Tsk, tsk" always yields a positive reaction, right? I'm so sorry that I was being holier-than-thou. Maybe if I offered you career advice, you'd forgive me?

And calling you "guy," or "jerk," is not an ad hominem attack. In fact, even if I just flat-out insulted you, that would still not be an ad hominem attack. Look it up. Ad hominem argumentation is a form of fallacious reasoning. It does not simply mean "being insulting" to the other person, or whatever you imagine it means, in the haze of your dementia. I have not launched into any ad hominem fallacies against you. That would be like if I said, "UMN-3L is a myopic, small-minded twit, whose life probably revolves around looking for 'senior partner' asses to kiss, therefore UMN is a bad school." That would be an ad hominem argument, because the premise does not entail the conclusion (ergo, it is inferentially invalid), and it is intended to confuse people into discounting the substance of what you said by attacking your character or your motives for saying it. That is ad hominem argumentation.

And I never called you "Beavis."

UMN-3L wrote:I've responded by teasing you because I think that you take yourself entirely too seriously. Compared to some of the people I've known in the law school community who have faced challenges to their success, terminal illness of a close family member, suicide of a childhood friend, substance abuse by a significant other, etc. your persecution complex comes off as rather frivolous. In your first year of law school, you ignored the administration's numerous emails reminding you to download ExamSoft and therefore missed the window. Too bad, but not the most sympathetic story I've heard.


What's your point? So, because some law students had personal problems or had a relative get cancer or whatever, I'm not allowed to complain about facially unfair policies? What's the connection? I don't get it. Student X's best friend from childhood committed suicide, therefore the Examsoft policy is fair? Student Y's sister gets AIDS, therefore UMN is not an ugly school? What?

By your reasoning, no one should ever go to see a doctor, complaining of allergies, because someone in the other room might have leukemia. What in the world are you thinking?

And you still don't seem to be able to get it through your head that I've given many other reasons why this school is terrible. Indeed, I gave them in my post above, which you ignore, pretending that my only complaints are the exam policy and the ugliness of the school. Truly, those are odious factors, which are cause for much complaint, but I never suggested that those alone were significant factors in choosing whether to come here, and despite your repeated efforts to make it seem as though these are the principal complaints, you can't change the fact that it just ain't so, and anyone who can use a scroll wheel can easily see through your little feint.

UMN-3L wrote:However, I can see from the degree of anger in your response that you seem to feel that you were persecuted by the administration, and you appear to regard yourself as an iconoclastic rebel who, like David vis-a-vis Goliath, is singlehandedly challenging the establishment to further student rights. It is entirely valid for you to present that viewpoint of yourself and your narrative. But it is equally valid for me to say that I think that your vendetta is frivolous. This is how free speech works. (In fact, we have a First Amendment class which devotes a large chunk of time to this subject, if you're interested.)


What? "David vis-a-vis Goliath"? "Challenging the establishment to further student rights"? What!? You've got this whole narrative cooked up about who I am, apparently. I can see by the degree of fury from your response that you feel quite flustered and confused by this whole situation. Please, calm down. You can't imagine the damage you're doing to your career. Allow me to explain:

I feel like UMN is a crappy school. I felt this way before the exam mess (yet another fact that I've pointed out, and which you conveniently "forget"). In fact, I felt that UMN was a pretty crappy law school from as early as orientation, and my impression of it has gotten steadily worse. This is not the "angry" response you seem to believe it is. To the contrary, I am happy to concede that the professors are generally excellent, and that UMN is dominant in the regional market (although the regional market cannot support the number of law students graduating every year). So you see, I am perfectly happy to acknowledge the merits of UMN. It's just too bad that UMN has so few of them.

I do not care about "student rights." I'm not out to change the school. It's pretty clear that the school doesn't change for anything less than a petition signed by 90% of the students and threats of walk-outs. Frankly, I don't think that the administrators running the school are mentally capable of the introspection, reflection, and self-critical reassessment necessary to effect even the slightest change. I do not see myself as David fighting Goliath.

I see myself as a wee little grasshopper, who got stuck in a spider's web, who's warning all the other bugs crawling by to steer clear. I'm the guy who's telling people not to answer that random unsolicited email from a Nigerian "prince," promising millions of dollars if you'll let him "borrow" your bank account. I'm the guy who was stupid enough to be suckered by a big scholarship into attending UMN, and now I'm telling people what I wish someone had told me before I made the colossal mistake of accepting admission at this joke of an educational institution.

I picked a crappy school, based on a big scholarship and the mistaken impression that rank 20 meant it would be okay. It's not. It shouldn't be in the T1, much less rank 20. The school is shit. I think that information would have been helpful to me back when I was a 0L, so I'm sharing it with others, in the hopes that it may be helpful to them. Pictures (and video) saying more than mere words, I've tried to back that up with some documentation, so that no one needs to "believe" me -- they can see for themselves.

UMN-3L wrote:I wish you all success in your future endeavors, Daniel, and--joking aside--I hope that your actions on this forum have no lasting negative impact on your life. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. :-)


Thank you so much for that. Really. I hope you have a great career, too. And I hope no one discovers your identity, lest your writings here do permanent damage to your career.

UMN-3L wrote:FYI, in the interest of making one last playful jab at you, I thought I would repost an email the school administration sent out today. I immediately thought of you when I saw it:


Yeah, that's hilarious. I'll bet you're real fun at parties. :roll:

fatlip
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby fatlip » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:44 pm

"
As to the "damage" I'm doing to my "professional reputation"? "Permanent stain"? The only damage to my legal career has been the result of the idiotic policies of a brain-dead administration, applied to my particular case with the finesse and care of a wrecking ball. And just to set the record straight, the only "permanent stain" I have to contend with are the words "University of Minnesota Law School" on my resumé.
"

everyone who talks about this thread offline seems to think otherwise

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msblaw89
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby msblaw89 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:59 pm

When you applied to UMN, do you remember about how long afterwards you received a decision?

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:57 pm

msblaw89 wrote:When you applied to UMN, do you remember about how long afterwards you received a decision?


Not exactly. A couple months. Three, maximum. Sorry can't be more precise.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:58 pm

msblaw89 wrote:When you applied to UMN, do you remember about how long afterwards you received a decision?


I think it varies. I remember in my 1L year hearing from some students who weren't admitted until July. I remember corresponding with Rachel Martinez in the Admissions Office before accepting; I'm sure you can send her a message and just ask for an update on your application. In fact, if you're really committed to UMN, it'll probably look good for you to show a strong interest in attending the school.

Good luck, MSBlaw, I hope you get in! :-)

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby narwhal » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:22 pm

fatlip wrote:everyone who talks about this thread offline seems to think otherwise


yeah..........this is pretty true.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MrAnon » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:38 pm

I would like to know more about this program for Post-Graduate Fellowships that begins after bar passage? It seems only to be available to jobless students? They specifically say that students with jobs are not eligible. And the school pays its grads $5,000 dollars to work for the courts? So the students are entering a volunteer position and the school pays $12.50 per hour to the student? They only want top half of the class, so exactly how many jobless do they expect are in the top half? Where does the money for the fellowships come from? Is it just tuition dollars being sent back to the students? That's weird! Personally, I'd prefer to just pay less tuition. What happens after the 13 week term of employment is up? Do you know anyone who has done this program? How competitive is it? Can bottom half of class get it?

I just noticed that taxes apply. How much of the $5,000 is taxed out?

http://www.law.umn.edu/news/lawclerkfel ... -2009.html

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:11 pm

narwhal wrote:
fatlip wrote:everyone who talks about this thread offline seems to think otherwise


yeah..........this is pretty true.


Yes, I've heard people chatting about it in the hallway. Daniel has gained a lot of notoriety. And most people don't have a good opinion of him.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby msblaw89 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:13 pm

UMN-3L wrote:
msblaw89 wrote:When you applied to UMN, do you remember about how long afterwards you received a decision?


I think it varies. I remember in my 1L year hearing from some students who weren't admitted until July. I remember corresponding with Rachel Martinez in the Admissions Office before accepting; I'm sure you can send her a message and just ask for an update on your application. In fact, if you're really committed to UMN, it'll probably look good for you to show a strong interest in attending the school.

Good luck, MSBlaw, I hope you get in! :-)


I've been "in review" since the 9th... I'm so anxious! I spoke with Rachel when she came to my school. Do you think it would come off as "annoying" if I shot her an e-mail asking about my status?

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sunynp
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby sunynp » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:31 pm

I like Daniel. I think he provides good information. I think too that having a job ( ie a future career) makes a huge difference in how a person views the school. I have a good feeling that Daniel will have a very successful career. I don't think he has said or done anything in this thread that would hurt his career, unless I guess, he gets blackballed by alums who would otherwise hire him. If that happened, it would only serve to support his point about the problems with the administration's attitude toward the students.

Maybe his fellow students should just give him some space.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:35 pm

msblaw89 wrote:
UMN-3L wrote:
msblaw89 wrote:When you applied to UMN, do you remember about how long afterwards you received a decision?


I think it varies. I remember in my 1L year hearing from some students who weren't admitted until July. I remember corresponding with Rachel Martinez in the Admissions Office before accepting; I'm sure you can send her a message and just ask for an update on your application. In fact, if you're really committed to UMN, it'll probably look good for you to show a strong interest in attending the school.

Good luck, MSBlaw, I hope you get in! :-)


I've been "in review" since the 9th... I'm so anxious! I spoke with Rachel when she came to my school. Do you think it would come off as "annoying" if I shot her an e-mail asking about my status?


Definitely not... I think that, given all the gamemanship that goes into offers and acceptances, a school (like a law firm) likes to know that it's your number one choice.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:49 pm

sunynp wrote:I like Daniel. I think he provides good information. I think too that having a job ( ie a future career) makes a huge difference in how a person views the school. I have a good feeling that Daniel will have a very successful career. I don't think he has said or done anything in this thread that would hurt his career, unless I guess, he gets blackballed by alums who would otherwise hire him. If that happened, it would only serve to support his point about the problems with the administration's attitude toward the students.

Maybe his fellow students should just give him some space.


I liked Daniel before he called me a "condescending douchebag" on this thread, merely because I disagree with his opinion about the law school. I've interacted with him in person before and I've never seen him be so trashy. Obviously he's much bolder on the internet than in real life. FYI, he was much more combative (and unprofessional) on the original thread he created; "University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions." But how he's damaged his career prospects is his own business, as he's made clear. I do know that 70% of legal recruiters nationally have said that they've stopped considering candidates because of unsavory information they've discovered about them online. From the perspective of any organization (law firm, government agency, nonprofit) trying to maintain a reputation for professionalism, someone who has openly behaved like this online would probably be too great a risk to hire. I don't know why you think that any future hesitation by professional organizations or UMN alums to hire a loose cannon like Daniel would be attributable to the school administration. He's orchestrating an attack on a school that a lot of us enjoy and respect; UMN alums and students are entitled to disagree with him, if they feel so moved.

I do think that you're right about different motivations and how that would affect a person's perspective. The vast majority of people who attend this law school actually intend to have a legal career. Daniel is an outlier who, in my opinion, is attributing a lot of his frustrations with the realities of the legal field, the job prospects in the legal field, the format and requirements common to many law schools (which are professional schools and which, like any business, medical, or dental school, expect their students to behave professionally), and life in general to the school administration. Frankly, in my opinion, it's childish. He openly admits to having a vendetta and his characterizations of our school are indisputably biased.

I disagree with him and started this thread because I don't feel that he represents the majority of our student body. In fact, I am embarrassed by what law students at other national law schools must think of us, based on his histrionics.
Last edited by UMN-3L on Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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msblaw89
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby msblaw89 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:06 pm

I went ahead and sent a follow up e-mail to Rachel

MrAnon
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MrAnon » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:32 pm

Some complaints are credible. For example, the school publishes information that "all employed" graduates earn an average of 88k. Then the footnote states that really that isn't true because only 1/3 of all employed graduates reported their salary. What happens to the rest? Are they off earning much more and afraid to admit it? Seems doubtful. If they wanted to be more forthcoming---and they do have that option; no one is stopping them---the school could say plainly that 1/3 of our employed graduates earned 88k on average and we don't know what the rest earned.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:41 pm

MrAnon wrote:Some complaints are credible. For example, the school publishes information that "all employed" graduates earn an average of 88k. Then the footnote states that really that isn't true because only 1/3 of all employed graduates reported their salary. What happens to the rest? Are they off earning much more and afraid to admit it? Seems doubtful. If they wanted to be more forthcoming---and they do have that option; no one is stopping them---the school could say plainly that 1/3 of our employed graduates earned 88k on average and we don't know what the rest earned.


I agree, that's not totally transparent. However, do you think that opacity in graduate employment statistics is a fault limited to the University of Minnesota Law School, or a general problem attributable to many law schools?

In my opinion, any assertion that UMN is unique in this practice is naive.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby UMN-3L » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:46 pm

msblaw89 wrote:I went ahead and sent a follow up e-mail to Rachel


Good luck, MSBLaw! I think that you should keep on checking in periodically, just to show that you are committed. My general tip for law school: in your interactions with others, try to demonstrate the type of lawyer and advocate you intend to be. If you'd be a zealous advocate for others, show that you are a zealous (but respectful, polite, and professional) advocate for yourself. People will respect you for that.

At this point, the school is probably more interested than usual in admitting people who actually want to attend UMN and intend to represent the school well to the legal community.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:54 pm

UMN-3L wrote:Yes, I've heard people chatting about it in the hallway. Daniel has gained a lot of notoriety. And most people don't have a good opinion of him.


Oh really? Who are these "most people"? Hm? Are you really saying that people have nothing better to do than discuss what I'm writing on a forum for prospective law students? And that they care? Nay -- that this has created notoriety? Bull shit.

I've spoken with a small handful of people who say they've seen the thread, telling me that they agree with me. And I've spoken with a couple people who say they've seen the thread, telling me that they disagree with me. The discussions have been entirely civil and respectful. No one has seemed to express any personal problem with me or with what I've written. Indeed, I've been told that the recent flood of angry posts since Nov. 9 are attributable to one guy out there who's been trying to stir up a storm, trying to "organize" some sort of "opposition campaign" to smear me with sock puppet accounts and other such less-than-reputable tactics to create the illusion that I represent some sort of minority viewpoint.

UMN-3L wrote:I liked Daniel before he called me a "condescending douchebag" on this thread, merely because I disagree with his opinion about the law school.


No. Absolutely not the case. This is completely false. I did not call you a "condescending douchebag" because you disagree with me. In fact, I largely agree with your list of pros and cons about UMN. Caveat: I think you give undue weight to the pros, and you give short shrift to your list of cons, but I actually agree with your basic assessment about whether the school is good/bad in various metrics. I think where we disagree is simply the degree of goodness or badness, and how much a particular metric matters. I actually think there's less we disagree about than you're making it seem.

The reason I think you're a condescending douchebag is not because you disagree with me, but because you pepper your posts with these admonishments about how "I'm not thinking about my future career," or that I lacked "foresight about what legal recruiters will think," and otherwise being... well... a condescending douchebag.

UMN-3L wrote:I've interacted with him in person before and I've never seen him be so trashy. Obviously he's much bolder on the internet than in real life.


Well, here's what you can do. Come tell me to my face what I should do about my "career." Lecture me about how to impress law firms and how much it matters what I post on the internet, and offer me "advice" about my future. Seriously, come and tell me what I should do about my future, as if you were in a position to know. I think you will find that I have no compunction about telling you that you're a "condescending douchebag" to your face just as "boldly" as I would online... because you know, a spade is a spade is a spade...

UMN-3L wrote:But how he's damaged his career prospects is his own business, as he's made clear.


See? You can't even butt out without offering your unsolicited opinion about my career. What is your obsession with my career?

And for your information, despite my 1L Fall exam snafu, my future career prospects have taken a dramatic albeit freakish turn for the better. Without divulging too much, it suffices to say that I expect to be doing considerably better than 99% of law students upon graduation -- and no, this doesn't change my opinion of UMN, and no, I don't feel any gratitude to UMN for my recent turn of good fortune, because the school had nothing to do with it.

Anyway, allow me to reciprocate: UMN-3L's douchebaggery and condescending demeanor are her own business, so I won't call her a condescending douchebag anymore, even though she happens to be a condescending douchebag.

UMN-3L wrote:He's orchestrating an attack on a school that a lot of us enjoy and respect; UMN alums and students are entitled to disagree with him, if they feel so moved.


Orchestrating an attack? Such bold verbiage! What have I done exactly? Once again, no one has accused me of lying or otherwise distorting the facts.

Now, I have heard that there's someone out there trying to "orchestrate an attack" against me, begging other people to join in, and creating sock puppets to create the illusion of opposition to my views. Indeed, sock puppets, which make reference to how the school is "buzzing" about what goes on in an online forum -- just to make the "opposition" to me seem even greater.

But I have done no such thing. Indeed, I have not asked a single person to vouch for my perspective here, even though I know many dozens of students who would have considerably more negative things to say about the place. There is no "orchestrated attack" on the school. I'm not coordinating with other people, nor asking anyone else to come join in and support me. It's just me, saying what I think.

UMN-3L wrote:I do think that you're right about different motivations and how that would affect a person's perspective.


As I've said before, I thought this school was pretty crappy from the very first day of orientation. Not just the physical building, but the way that the admins were running the place. Orientation was like a freaking circus. We must have spent at least ten hours talking about how cold it gets in Minnesota. Yeah -- Minnesota is cold -- buy a hat... duh.

Did we really need a lecture (literally) about it, followed by dozens of group sessions brainstorming what we could do to fight off the cold? Let's go around the room and have each person come up with a suggestion about what to do to stay warm during the winter! What fun!

And on top of that, odds are pretty overwhelming that my career situation is more promising than yours at this point. So, let's not attribute an honest, sincere, and justified perspective to externalities, okay?

What's so dishonest about what you're saying is that you're attributing my dissatisfaction with the school to particularities of my circumstance, when I've given tons and tons of valid reasons for disliking the school. You just ignore all of these very valid justifications (which would apply to anyone), and home in on the idiosyncrasies (which only apply to me), as if the general justifications didn't even exist. I don't hate UMN Law because it screwed me personally. I hate the law school because it's a crappy law school. I realize that this blows your mind, but there are actually a lot of people who think UMN Law is a pretty crappy school -- and a lot of those people attend UMN Law. And by the way, I thought UMN Law was a pretty crappy school long before I was personally screwed by it.

UMN-3L wrote:Daniel is an outlier who, in my opinion, is attributing a lot of his frustrations with the realities of the legal field, the job prospects in the legal field, the format and requirements common to many law schools (which are professional schools and which, like any business, medical, or dental school, expect their students to behave professionally), and life in general to the school administration.


Career, professional, professionalism, permanent stains, cyber-recruiting, legal, professional, yada, yada, yada...

Yeah, we get it. You're soooo professional. We're all quite impressed with how professional you are. I'll bet you own a whole bunch of business suits. Great. Very impressive.

UMN-3L wrote:Frankly, in my opinion, it's childish. He openly admits to having a vendetta and his characterizations of our school are indisputably biased.


Biased how? I've said pretty publicly that I think UMN is a big brick of shit from the beginning of 1L year. I have been disappointed at every turn by what is truly an abysmal and grossly overrated institution. What vendetta? Was I biased when I was sitting through 20 hours of orientation hell?

And I'll tell you what's childish. What's childish is mindlessly cheerleading for your school, because you think that negative (albeit true) information about your school being publicized will hurt your personal career prospects, and so you do a spin job, which results in 0Ls being fooled into coming to this dungeon. If it weren't for cheerleaders like you, I might have looked more carefully at this dump before I accepted admission. If it weren't for cheerleaders like you, I wouldn't feel like I was fooled into going to the worst institution I've ever had the misfortune of being associated with.

I have never "openly admitted to having a vendetta," and I dispute your claim that I'm biased. What has been openly admitted to is that you're here to spin the school's reputation, because you're worried what it will mean for your career if anyone anywhere thinks UMN Law is anything less than the Harvard of the Midwest. Just like any professional legal future career stain-fighting spasm ought to do.
Last edited by daniel3.14 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:28 pm, edited 8 times in total.

MrAnon
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MrAnon » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:03 pm

UMN-3L wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Some complaints are credible. For example, the school publishes information that "all employed" graduates earn an average of 88k. Then the footnote states that really that isn't true because only 1/3 of all employed graduates reported their salary. What happens to the rest? Are they off earning much more and afraid to admit it? Seems doubtful. If they wanted to be more forthcoming---and they do have that option; no one is stopping them---the school could say plainly that 1/3 of our employed graduates earned 88k on average and we don't know what the rest earned.


I agree, that's not totally transparent. However, do you think that opacity in graduate employment statistics is a fault limited to the University of Minnesota Law School, or a general problem attributable to many law schools?

In my opinion, any assertion that UMN is unique in this practice is naive.


It is not transparent at all. I would agree that all law schools including UMN hide the ball on employment figures and falsely try to paint a rosy picture out of garbage.

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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby narwhal » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:29 pm

The thing is, Pi, we all know that the building is shitty. Nobody likes being trapped in a concrete-cum-cinder block dungeon all day, every day. The thing is that we made the choice to come here and we are living with that decision. A lot of us came here because we want to live nearby, or because there are really excellent professors (Carpenter, Matheson, or Weissbrodt, anyone?), or because this is the best school we got into. These things are more important to us than the horrible, horrible building, or we would be elsewhere. (Note: the last sentence applies to you too, Pi.)

What really irks me about your posts is that you are choosing to do them semi-anonymously, online, where there is little to no chance anything substantial will change as a result of what you say. The only things that have changed: your name is now synonymous with "the guy who bashed our school" to an entire class of regional lawyers your age, and you managed to remind us of all the crappy parts that we are working to ignore because we want the education UMN is offering us.

If you don't like the facilities, laptops, or exam policies, then either do something about it or keep your mouth shut. In fact, we received an email in September asking for applications for several advisory committees, including educational policy, honor code, and technology committees. Perhaps you applied to join these committees, and if so, my apologies for assuming you'd rather complain about our school than make changes to our school. But from what I can tell, you are just a person who really, really enjoys complaining.

One final note: for someone who get so uptight about ad hominem attacks, you sure make a lot of them. So, since I'm pretty sure you're going to call me a sanctimonious troll for posting this, I'm going to go ahead and finish by acting like one.

Because I am making sacrifices to be in law school at UMN, I am doing my best to make the best of the situation. This includes limiting my grousing about the facilities as much as possible. Why? I was brought up to believe that if you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all.

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msblaw89
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby msblaw89 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:34 pm

I've heard from several other law students at others schools that their law school buildings aren't exactly the Ritz Carlton either. I think most law school's are in mediocre condition... unless they recently remodeled or something.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:26 am

narwhal wrote:The thing is, Pi, we all know that the building is shitty. Nobody likes being trapped in a concrete-cum-cinder block dungeon all day, every day. The thing is that we made the choice to come here and we are living with that decision.


Right. And telling 0Ls about it on a forum created so that law students could tell prospectives about their schools is somehow inconsistent with "living with the decision"?

narwhal wrote:One final note: for someone who get so uptight about ad hominem attacks, you sure make a lot of them. So, since I'm pretty sure you're going to call me a sanctimonious troll for posting this, I'm going to go ahead and finish by acting like one.


Okay. I've explained what an ad hominem attack is. You show me where I've made an ad hominem attack. Show me. Seriously, I'd love to see it. Diagram an argument I've made, and show me where I make an ad hominem attack. Since I've made "a lot of them," it should be easy for you to pick one out. Go ahead.

narwhal wrote:Because I am making sacrifices to be in law school at UMN, I am doing my best to make the best of the situation. This includes limiting my grousing about the facilities as much as possible. Why? I was brought up to believe that [size=150]if you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all.


Great. Glad you're trying to make the best of it. So am I. So what grave sin have I committed? Telling 0Ls how crappy it is here? Breaking the sacred covenant of the UMN Law student by divulging just how bad of a crap hole UMN is?

The thing is, I think you're dead wrong. I'm not griping to the wind here. I'm giving information to people who are considering also coming to this dump. It's information that I would have found useful two years ago, and it's information that I believe they will find useful.

Your comment nicely wraps up the basic sentiment "opposed" to my posting in a nutshell. You don't dispute what I've said, you just don't think I ought to have said it -- as if it's some sort of secret. "If you don't have something nice to say, you shouldn't say anything at all"? What kind of retarded cliched crunk is that? There are people here who are considering dumping tens of thousands of dollars and wasting three years of their lives here. And what... you're worried that this might hurt some school admin's feelings? You're worried that it will tarnish the "prestige" of UMN Law?

It's a crappy school. All I've done is show people how crappy it is. Ultimately, no one is disputing the factual basis underlying the characterization of crappiness. You're merely disputing whether I should've let the cat out of the bag. Too late.

narwhal
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby narwhal » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:34 pm

daniel3.14 wrote:You're merely disputing whether I should've let the cat out of the bag. Too late.

No, I'm saying that if you believed what you say on here, you would either be working to change the situation or leave. Gripe away, as long as it's productive. But the 0Ls got the message after the first few posts -- you're not accomplishing anything now, you're just repeating the same points.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:25 pm

narwhal wrote:No, I'm saying that if you believed what you say on here, you would either be working to change the situation or leave. Gripe away, as long as it's productive. But the 0Ls got the message after the first few posts -- you're not accomplishing anything now, you're just repeating the same points.


Who made you arbiter of all things productive? What obligation do I have to make UMN a better place? The less connection I have to it, the better. The reason I'm not quitting is because I've sunk a lot of time and money into this crap school. After getting through the worst of it, the least I can do is to walk away with a degree. And having a degraded, gutter-school diploma is better than nothing at all. If I had a time machine, I'd never let myself enroll in the first place. If the school wants to offer me a full refund, then I'll take it. Short of that, it doesn't make sense to drop out at this stage. That doesn't mean I'm not entitled to regret my decision to enroll in the first place.

But really, how is this anyone's business except my own? Seriously, I think it's pretty telling that no one has anything reasonable to say in UMN's defense, and instead all the discussion is directed at speculation about my motives, my career, and my decisions. I mean, does anyone else here find it odd that these "defenders" of UMN's ostensibly sterling reputation have spent more time theorizing and musing about me than extolling the supposed high merits of the school? Frankly, it's creepy.

I have no interest in making UMN a better place. Another year and a half and I'm gone. Done. Off to a better place. And while I'm here, I do think that it's worth warning people about how crappy it is, so that they don't make the same mistake and get bogged down wasting three years of their lives here. And if you don't like hearing about it, then don't keep coming back here and reading my posts. They were never meant for you in the first place. Seriously, this is like the third time you've complained about my posting. Who's forcing you to read it? You know, this forum even has a function, which allows you to screen out my posts altogether. Really, I don't think you've been particularly obnoxious here, and I'm not saying that you're necessarily one of the mindless cheerleaders, but if you don't like my postings, then I suggest you just ignore my posts.

dontknowwhereimgoin
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby dontknowwhereimgoin » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:13 pm

UMN-3L mentioned a study showing that 70% of law firms would be less likely to hire someone based on his or her adverse reputation online.

Other than making cogent, if somewhat salty, arguments and providing valuable information to a forum which I wasn't aware required the obeisance of a UMN alumni gala, what exactly has Daniel done to secure himself this "adverse online reputation?"

If I were a hiring partner I would note that Daniel has A) Provided context-appropriate value; B) Demonstrated argumentative acumen (including dissecting opposition views expertly); and C) Shown great courage in the face of a significant headwind.

All three of these reasons would provide significant incentive for me to hire Daniel in a legal capacity. For people to suggest his loyalty is somehow impugned because of information he is providing about a top law school on an online message board meant to impart knowledge to incoming law students about top law schools that they are about to pay a large amount of money to attend is at best short-sighted and at worst malicious.

Full disclosure: I am a 2L at UMN, I have enjoyed my time at the law school, and I have had classes with Daniel. Suffice it to say he provides excellent content in class as well.

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minnbills
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby minnbills » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:35 pm

dontknowwhereimgoin wrote:Shown great courage in the face of a significant headwind.



The guy practically has a fan club here, don't know what you're talking about with this.

Considering how UMN dominates its market (and that daniel is supposedly from MN) I don't think it's hard to imagine how referring to your school as a: "festering pile of shit" and trashing it on an anonymous message board would annoy some alumni.




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