University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

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ajeetthakur
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby ajeetthakur » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:50 am

I find more information about law from this forum.

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sunynp
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby sunynp » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:36 pm

Any response to the post in Paul campos blog which calls out umn on it's placement stats?specifically the 98.8% in large font on the career services page? I hope the school arrested his post. The blog us easy to find- for some reason this board redirects it to " law school was the best decision I ever made.". I'm not sure why that happens - maybe because the word scam is in there? I'm just trying to get information. I think people need transparency so they can make good decisions about debt. But in no way am I saying that noone should go to law school. Just these stories of people struggling with debt and no jobs- pwleople who went to schools like umn- make me very upset. I don't have debt-- yet-- but I am lucky.

Im only posting this because it reinforced what daniel was saying in this thread.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:01 pm

sunynp wrote:Any response to the post in Paul campos blog which calls out umn on it's placement stats?specifically the 98.8% in large font on the career services page? I hope the school arrested his post. The blog us easy to find- for some reason this board redirects it to " law school was the best decision I ever made.". I'm not sure why that happens - maybe because the word scam is in there? I'm just trying to get information. I think people need transparency so they can make good decisions about debt. But in no way am I saying that noone should go to law school. Just these stories of people struggling with debt and no jobs- pwleople who went to schools like umn- make me very upset. I don't have debt-- yet-- but I am lucky.

Im only posting this because it reinforced what daniel was saying in this thread.


If you're looking for an official position from the University regarding this specific blog post (which I haven't read nor know anything about), I suggest asking the Dean at the Admitted Students Weekend during the open question/answer portion. Let's not forget that this forum is more or less an echo chamber of the mostly ill-informed.

With that said, my general personal advice on this issue for any school is this: You have to recognize the reality of the situation - which is in part that schools are ranked, at least partially, on this data. They have an obligation to their alum and current students to put their best foot forward in that ranking process. While I myself find it saddening that the US News and World report encourages reporting practices that don't tell the whole story, (as I've publicly commented on to a law professor here: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ctice.html ), one does need to recognize that reality and do their diligence in seeking as much information as possible and doing their part to ensure their own success.

At the end the day, there certainly does need to be reporting practice reform (which is beginning to happen), but I want to emphasize that bad economy or great economy, If you go to ANY law school and expect that a job will be handed to you upon graduation, you're making a grave mistake - regardless of their employment statistics.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:09 am

MidwestJosh wrote:If you're looking for an official position from the University regarding this specific blog post (which I haven't read nor know anything about), I suggest asking the Dean at the Admitted Students Weekend during the open question/answer portion. Let's not forget that this forum is more or less an echo chamber of the mostly ill-informed.


Yeah, because the school is so honest and forthright, clearly the Dean is going to give you a straight answer on that. :roll: I would regard anything the school claims -- particularly the admins -- as warranting extremely large doses of skepticism. To whatever extent online forums are "an echo chamber of the mostly ill-informed," they're still going to be better than whatever the school has to say. The last person I'd trust on this is the Dean.

Put another way: asking the suspected liar if he is in fact a liar would not seem to me to be particularly good way of determining whether he's lying. Pretty much anyone else is going to give you better information. If UMN is willing to play with the numbers to make it seem like they have better placement than they do, then what makes you think they'd be willing to fess up to it?

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MidwestJosh
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MidwestJosh » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:22 am

daniel3.14 wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:If you're looking for an official position from the University regarding this specific blog post (which I haven't read nor know anything about), I suggest asking the Dean at the Admitted Students Weekend during the open question/answer portion. Let's not forget that this forum is more or less an echo chamber of the mostly ill-informed.


Yeah, because the school is so honest and forthright, clearly the Dean is going to give you a straight answer on that. :roll: I would regard anything the school claims -- particularly the admins -- as warranting extremely large doses of skepticism. To whatever extent online forums are "an echo chamber of the mostly ill-informed," they're still going to be better than whatever the school has to say. The last person I'd trust on this is the Dean.

Put another way: asking the suspected liar if he is in fact a liar would not seem to me to be particularly good way of determining whether he's lying. Pretty much anyone else is going to give you better information. If UMN is willing to play with the numbers to make it seem like they have better placement than they do, then what makes you think they'd be willing to fess up to it?


Well, I have personally watched Dean Wippman respond to questions on the topic on several occasions - in front of different crowds and of varying sizes. I have to say I disagree with you.

For your sake, Daniel, I hope you strongly consider being a visiting student during your third year at a place you find much less despicable.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:57 am

MidwestJosh wrote:Well, I have personally watched Dean Wippman respond to questions on the topic on several occasions - in front of different crowds and of varying sizes. I have to say I disagree with you.


What is there to disagree with? By virtue of his position, he's going to be the least reliable person to ask about this. Telling people to ask Dean Wippman about UMN's inflated stats is like saying the way to get answers about North Korea is to ask Kim Jong Un. The fact that you've seen Wippman "in action" doesn't seem the least bit relevant to the fact that he isn't going to have much credibility on whether the school lies about its placement stats. So what if you've "personally watched him." He's still the dean of the school talking about the school's "stats." Not hard to guess what he's gonna say about it.

MidwestJosh wrote:For your sake, Daniel, I hope you strongly consider being a visiting student during your third year at a place you find much less despicable.


Well this is regrettable. You've seemed thus far inclined to leave me out of your pro-UMN cheerleading, which I rather appreciated. But I guess it's pathological to the handful of people who actually like this school (or claim to) to make my personal education and career decisions their business. :? I guess when there isn't anything good to say about the school, then at some point you just start in on the guy who points out its supernumerary flaws. So how about you mind your own business? How about that?

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sunynp
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby sunynp » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:35 pm

If you haven't read the blog post, you might want to. It pretty much rips apart the school following a letter from an unemployed grad. Paul Campos is a tenured law professor, he isn't just a random person. I don't know why the dean would say anything different than the school website promotes- if he did that would be an even bigger problem with false advertising, at least in my opinion.

I'm not a person who expects a job to be handed to me- I have a good job lined up. But I am very concerned about the transparency issue. I have many friends and relatives who are looking to me for advice on schools. It is wrong to disparage people who are looking for solid information as people who expect a job handed to them. What they want to know is whether going in debt , or spending their parents money, will be worth it.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby MidwestJosh » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:51 pm

I'm sorry if it came across that way, Daniel. It certainly wasn't intended to be patronizing and I do sincerely hope that things get better for you than they've been.

On the Paul Campos' blog post... does anyone have a link?

Regarding my suggestion to ask Dean Wippman the question, I was simply informing readers that there is indeed a forum to raise concerns and questions on the topic. After all, the best person to confront on the issue is the Dean of the Law School. Listeners are free to take his comments for what they think they're worth. My own opinion is that he is very straightforward on the subject, and I've provided further commentary regarding my personal views on the issue. I think I'll leave it at that.

Best,

--Josh

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:27 pm

MidwestJosh wrote:I'm sorry if it came across that way, Daniel. It certainly wasn't intended to be patronizing and I do sincerely hope that things get better for you than they've been.


Fair enough.

You can understand, what with UMN-3L preaching to me about how I will never get hired by anyone anywhere, on account of my having committed the grave atrocity of saying something negative about UMN Law (quick, someone call the Hague!), that I am not particularly interested in getting any more "advice" from UMN 3Ls.

MidwestJosh wrote:On the Paul Campos' blog post... does anyone have a link?


As sunynp pointed out, for some reason TLS automatically won't allow anyone to post the link. The attempted link gets replaced by a dead link. I will PM you the link.

MidwestJosh wrote:Regarding my suggestion to ask Dean Wippman the question, I'm was simply informing readers that there is indeed a forum to raise concerns and questions on the topic. After all, the best person to confront on the issue is the Dean of the Law School. Listeners are free to take his comments for what they think they're worth. My own opinion is that he is very straightforward on the subject, and I've provided further commentary regarding my personal views on the issue. I think I'll leave it at that.


Why is the best person to confront on the issue the Dean of the Law School? It's obvious what he's going to say. He's going to say, "We don't lie. Our statistics are not misleading." Duh. It's like asking Nixon whether he lied about Watergate. Of course he's going to say "No." What else can he say?

If pressed, he'd probably just say dismissively, "I'm not going to address Campos point for point." After which he'd probably attempt to diffuse the situation with some impossibly lame joke, told with as much spontaneity as one can manage when reading it off a notecard (I've seen him live and in action, too). I guess that would be "straightforward." I mean, he's not going to run away and hide in his office or something. This is a bit like Minnbills calling my posting the pictures of the school "puzzling," because it was not consistent with the school's admissions folk claiming that UMN's facilities were "state of the art." There's nothing puzzling about it. They're lying. Ask them if they're lying, and they'll lie about whether they're lying.

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sunynp
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby sunynp » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:59 pm

[The user's post has been removed.]

Administrator Notice: Due to past spamming of the Paul Campos blog, linking to the site or providing its URL are prohibited. Further attempts to circumvent the TLS filter that removes the URL/site will be met with adverse consequences.

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sunynp
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby sunynp » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:01 pm

sunynp wrote:[The user's post has been removed.]

Administrator Notice: Due to past spamming of the Paul Campos blog, linking to the site or providing its URL are prohibited. Further attempts to circumvent the TLS filter that removes the URL/site will be met with adverse consequences.


Oh No! Sorry!! I didn't know there was an issue with past spamming of the blog. I won't refer to the blog at all. People know about it and can find it on their own. But I didn't realize that it had been spammed on the site.

Again, sorry.

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YCrevolution
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby YCrevolution » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:34 pm

..

Moo
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby Moo » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:15 am

After reading this entire thread and having very little experience with TLS in general I write this post with a certain level of trepidation—conversations in this thread can certainly become heated.

First and foremost, if this post seems ill placed on my part, I apologize. Like I said, I’m not quite familiar with TLS yet. My logistic ignorance aside, I have a few questions I’d like to ask regarding my future application to the U as well as a few areas of interest regarding specific curricula and opportunities:

1. I’ve looked at admissions numbers and overall conversations about acceptance into the law program, but I’d like to see if anyone might be able to offer me a bit more nuanced response to my numbers/application qualitatives. I’m only finishing my third year (Junior) this spring, but I plan on graduating with a GPA no lower than 3.6 from my respectable Midwest institution in the Spring of 2013. I’m scheduled to take the LSAT this coming October, and if all goes according to plan I hope to receive a score no lower than a 160.

2. Before attending undergrad I lived in Minnesota for 12 years, completing high school at a Minneapolis suburban school in 2009. Both my parents are undergraduate alumni from the U as well. It’s safe to say my dream is to become a Gopher. What kind of perks (if any) could these qualities serve me in my application?

3. I am also considering a joint M.A. or Ph.D. while in law school, preferably one in Criminology. I am pretty sure no “official” program exists at the U, but as I’ve come to know through conversations with my undergraduate professors there sometimes are exceptions to joint/dual degree policies. Does anyone know if that might be the case at the U? Or perhaps if it would still be feasible to attempt to receive a M.A. while working on a J.D. separately while at the U?

Any advice or general guidance in any of these areas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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ThreeRivers
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby ThreeRivers » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:56 am

1. You need a 167 to be accepted. If you get that / apply early enough you shouldn't have a problem / should even get decent scholly. If you get anything below that you'll be below both medians / have to pray can get off wl

2. Are you still considered a minnesota resident? If so, lower tuition

3. Umn has joint programs

Warning note: I'm a 0l who will attend umn next year so not much experience, but your questions are mainly admissions based so I felt comfortable answering

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minnbills
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby minnbills » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:11 am

1. Threerivers is right- shoot for 167. People get in with lower LSATs but that seems to be the magic number.

2. In-state tuition is the huge perk if you're a resident. You can use that info to write a nice "why MN?" essay, which might help your application a bit.

3. Yes, the U has lots of joint programs. Typically, you do one year of pure law school, then start the other program in your 2nd year.

Moo
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby Moo » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:57 am

minnbills wrote:3. Yes, the U has lots of joint programs. Typically, you do one year of pure law school, then start the other program in your 2nd year.


In Crim though? Or does it matter? Will the University work with me if it isn't listed on some joint degree list on the website?

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minnbills
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby minnbills » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:01 pm

Moo wrote:
minnbills wrote:3. Yes, the U has lots of joint programs. Typically, you do one year of pure law school, then start the other program in your 2nd year.


In Crim though? Or does it matter? Will the University work with me if it isn't listed on some joint degree list on the website?


I don't know if the U offers that program. My guess is they will work with you, but the only way to find that out is to ask.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:35 pm

....
Last edited by rickgrimes69 on Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

jsvaughn
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby jsvaughn » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:14 pm

Can anyone recommend the best area to live for law students?

I'm looking for a studio or one bedroom

splbagel
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby splbagel » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:18 am

I know it's way early for this, but worth a shot...

We are loving Prof Gross for Contracts, visiting this year from UMN. Any chance y'all have an exam bank and would be willing to share a past exam or two of his? My section would be eternally grateful!

midwestlawstudent
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Re: University of Minnesota 3L taking questions...

Postby midwestlawstudent » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:05 am

I know it's early, but I will be looking to sublet a place in Minneapolis next summer for a 10 week summer associate program. Would prefer a furnished 1 bdrm downtown or uptown. PM if you think you are going to sublet.

Thanks.




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