University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:12 pm

Amanda,

Obviously I can't make individual determinations in a forum like this, but let me give you some general guidelines. When we evaluate applications, what we are looking for are students who 1) will be successful in law school, and 2) will make an impact while they're here on our campus and when they leave our campus. Although LSAT and G.P.A. are important factors in our decision, we do not feed numbers into a computer and we do not employ cutoffs. We review each application in its entirety. So a history of campus activity will be definitely be viewed as a positive factor in our evaluation.

To get a sense of your likelihood for admission, you can review our median numbers. Last year's median LSAT was 157 and the median G.P.A. was 3.51. We're predicting similar numbers for this year's class. If you're above median on both, you've gone a long way towards convincing us that you'll do well in law school. You also stand a good chance of receiving a scholarship. But it's important to keep in mind that we admit a broad range of students. To show this, I like to share our overall range of scores. Last year we admitted students with LSAT scores from 147 to 171 and G.P.A.'s from 2.38 to 4.0. Now that doesn't mean that students with a 147/2.38 stand a good chance of gaining admission, but it does mean that for students without above median scores, we look beyond the scores to identify candidates who will succeed at law school and contribute to our law school and to the community at large. Hope this helps.

Steve

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:16 pm

@ canadian wolf: two warnings about law school numbers. First, the number of applicants posting there is only a fraction of our admitted students pool, hardly a representative sample. Second, I'm sure you've realized by now that there are a lot of embellished stats and scholarship awards posted on there. So I'd take the information on there with a big grain of salt.

The_Guv
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby The_Guv » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:14 am

Dean Freedman,

Thank you so much for doing this, it's truly appreciated.

Could you explain a little bit about the scholarship opportunities for non-residential applicants? And is there a best way for a candidate to show that they're serious about going to Kansas without having solid ties to the state?

Thanks!

ineptimusprime
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby ineptimusprime » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:33 am

The_Guv wrote:Dean Freedman,

Thank you so much for doing this, it's truly appreciated.

Could you explain a little bit about the scholarship opportunities for non-residential applicants? And is there a best way for a candidate to show that they're serious about going to Kansas without having solid ties to the state?

Thanks!


This was me this year. I'm from Idaho and wasn't really sure how to express this. I just sent a candid e-mail telling Dean Freedman how interested I was and why.

I think Dean Freedman knows who I am, so he's free to comment on whether my course of action is the preferred method.

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:17 pm

@ ineptimusprime
hah hah. Since you are our official Idaho flag bearer, I do know who you are.

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:24 pm

@ the guv

Since we are pretty generous with fee waivers, it can be difficult for us to distinguish between candidates with a sincere interest in attending KU and candidates who are just blanketing law schools with applications. Obviously we prefer the former to the latter. That's why last year we added to the application an optional essay inviting students to discuss their interest in Kansas and KU Law. Only about ten percent of candidates include this essay, so it's a good way to stand out from the crowd.

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S-IV
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby S-IV » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:27 am

As an incoming 1L this Fall at KU, I'm really proud that our Dean of Admissions is on TLS providing real answers to interested and curious students. Very cool. Thanks, Dean Feedman!

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:19 am

@ S - IV

Thanks! See you August 16.

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manofjustice
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby manofjustice » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:32 am

This year, applicants are down about 14%, as of this writing. That's on top of another 8 % decline last year. So, in total, over the last two years, applicants are down about 20%. Has U of K et. al. reduced their class size by about 20%? This would seem important because a) applicants are down because jobs are down: it's not a good idea to flood the market with jobless graduates, no? And, b) if you don't, student quality goes down.

Also, do law school administrators, as gatekeepers to a profession and members of the Bar, feel they have a duty to act for the greater good of the legal market and the public at large?

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:30 am

@mano

Law schools definitely have a responsibility to adjust their enrollment to the changing employment market. That's why last year KU Law reduced its class size from 168 to 134, an almost exactly 20% drop (our goal actually was to admit 140, but we underenrolled slightly). This year our target is 140, which we intend to hit. We did this mostly in response to the declining job market, but also to maintain the quality of our students. We will maintain a 140 student class size for the foreseable future.

To your point about declining applications, applications to KU Law have increased 18% this year.

And yes, we take very seriously our duty to serve our students, the State of Kansas and the global community.

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:41 pm

We have a number of students blogging on our web site and they do a great job describing some of the day to day realities of being a law student or a recent graduate.

To read about Matt Moriarty's experience in his first summer internship in Colorado...
http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/2012/06/boom-this-is-not-drill.html

To read about three of our students' journey in opening their own practice...
http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com/2012/05/road-less-traveled-trio-to-chronicle.html

For all of our blog entries...
http://kuschooloflaw.blogspot.com

Enjoy!

taxman128
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby taxman128 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:52 pm

JayhawkLaw wrote:three ...students...opening their own practice


did they have any other options?

thanks

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:24 am

@ taxman. According to their blog, they planned to open their own firm many months before graduation. At the least since last fall, if not all the way back to their first year. There is a comment section on the blog, I encourage you to post your question there. I'm sure they'll respond.

jared6180
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby jared6180 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:05 pm

I will be applying this Fall and plan to send in my application as soon as the October LSAT scores are released. Is there any benefit to applying to KU early rather than later in the cycle? Are admissions requirements even fractionally less stringent Nov 1 than they are on Jan 5 or Feb 15 and so forth through the cycle?

If a student is admitted at 3.00/158 but retakes the LSAT in Dec or Feb and goes to a 162 for example will KU take this new LSAT into consideration and increase the scholarship for this individual or will all Financial decisions be final?

My first goal for example is to get in, once that is accomplished if I can retake the LSAT and get a bit more aid than that becomes a secondary goal and one worth pursuing.

btp
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby btp » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:40 pm

Does KU Law offer Early Decision or Early Action? Why or Why not?

Thanks for the forum!

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Renne Walker
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby Renne Walker » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:43 am

Since I like to fiddle with stats, I wanted to ask about your claim of an 80% employment percentage. According to LST, 47.6% is your employment score, 29.8% un/underemployed, 14.3% into public sector (usually low wages) and 2.4% are short-termed employed by the school.

Why would someone risk +$150K for less than a 50/50 shot at finding employment, especially with only a 4.8% placement into a large firm?

BTW: Your TLS web site claims a 94.3% employment rate. Also stats from 2007. You’re not the only school that quotes 2007. . . nevertheless, I have to ask, what’s up with that? How hard is it to update the page?

--LinkRemoved--

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princeR
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby princeR » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:07 pm

Renne Walker wrote:Since I like to fiddle with stats, I wanted to ask about your claim of an 80% employment percentage. According to LST, 47.6% is your employment score, 29.8% un/underemployed, 14.3% into public sector (usually low wages) and 2.4% are short-termed employed by the school.

Why would someone risk +$150K for less than a 50/50 shot at finding employment, especially with only a 4.8% placement into a large firm?

BTW: Your TLS web site claims a 94.3% employment rate. Also stats from 2007. You’re not the only school that quotes 2007. . . nevertheless, I have to ask, what’s up with that? How hard is it to update the page?

--LinkRemoved--

No need to attack the guy. I doubt he can answer accurately why people are choosing to go to his school, I mean, it is their choice after all.

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Pate
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby Pate » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:08 am

princeR wrote:I doubt he can answer accurately why people are choosing to go to his school, I mean, it is their choice after all.

This year 20,000 will wind up with no job but will owe $3B. You are right it is their choice, somewhat because schools keep blowing lots and lots of sunshine up their skirts.

Edit: Honestly, if you are attending or considering going to a law school offering a 50/50 shot at becoming a lawyer, what are you thinking?

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2014
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby 2014 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:01 pm

To be fair to KU its in state tuition is one of the cheapest sticker prices I've seen and I've never seen anyone from the school claim to be anything more than an affordable option for Kansans who want to practice in Kansas/Missouri. I'm assuming a sizeable portion of their class that is not employed or under-employed are ones who come from out of state or have dreams of big law.

Take the blog linked earlier about the three individuals opening a law firm in Olathe. All three were from Texas. I don't see how you can fault a flagship Kansas school for admitting and matriculating those students and struggling to place them in jobs when their ties are not in KU's job market.

TLS is pretty clear about the idea that you go to a top school or to an affordable regional school and people from Texas, California, New York, etc who for whatever reason choose to attend KU shouldn't have anyone to blame but themselves. It's not like the school can or should systematically decline them if they are qualified to attend, and what can KU administrators or faculty members do to convince a Houston firm to take a median student at KU over someone from a T14 or one of the like 10 Texas schools or like 20 other schools closer than KU (think OK, AZ, AK, NM, LA, etc)?

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby Mr. Somebody » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:47 pm

2014 wrote:To be fair to KU its in state tuition is one of the cheapest sticker prices I've seen and I've never seen anyone from the school claim to be anything more than an affordable option for Kansans who want to practice in Kansas/Missouri. I'm assuming a sizeable portion of their class that is not employed or under-employed are ones who come from out of state or have dreams of big law.

Take the blog linked earlier about the three individuals opening a law firm in Olathe. All three were from Texas. I don't see how you can fault a flagship Kansas school for admitting and matriculating those students and struggling to place them in jobs when their ties are not in KU's job market.

TLS is pretty clear about the idea that you go to a top school or to an affordable regional school and people from Texas, California, New York, etc who for whatever reason choose to attend KU shouldn't have anyone to blame but themselves. It's not like the school can or should systematically decline them if they are qualified to attend, and what can KU administrators or faculty members do to convince a Houston firm to take a median student at KU over someone from a T14 or one of the like 10 Texas schools or like 20 other schools closer than KU (think OK, AZ, AK, NM, LA, etc)?


why would you assume the bolded?

how many people from out of state aspire to go to kansas for law school?

also:

Graduation from KU Law permits you to stay in the region or move anywhere you prefer. While about 70 percent of graduates remain in Kansas or the Kansas City metro region, the balance of our students commence their careers across the U.S., and in foreign countries as well.
Last edited by Mr. Somebody on Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abc12345675
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby abc12345675 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:49 pm

Why are you guys hijacking the Dean's thread? This is supposed to be a Q & A. Not a "let's debate Kansas' employment prospects" thread.

pballer
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby pballer » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:55 pm

abc12345675 wrote:Why are you guys hijacking the Dean's thread? This is supposed to be a Q & A. Not a "let's debate Kansas' employment prospects" thread.


+1

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Birdnals
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby Birdnals » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:25 pm

abc12345675 wrote:Why are you guys hijacking the Dean's thread? This is supposed to be a Q & A. Not a "let's debate Kansas' employment prospects" thread.


I feel like asking the dean tough questions, including questions about employment data, is not off the table. It gives him a chance to respond to the TLS nay-sayers and gives potential students a valid question to consider as they weigh their options.


Asking questions a law school dean may not want to answer does not equal "picking on him"

JayhawkLaw
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby JayhawkLaw » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:22 pm

@jared

Thanks for deciding to apply to KU Law. Sorry it's taken me a few days to answer, sometimes I forget to check TLS for a few days. To answer your question about the best time to apply, I'd definitely say the fall and early winter (before Feb. 15.) That's when we have the most admissions and scholarship offers to make.

Regarding gaining admission and then taking the LSAT to push your scholarship - we don't really operate that way. If you are planning to take the LSAT a second time, it's probably best to indicate that on your application. We will hold off on making a decision until the score is reported. That's a more rational way to try to maximize your scholarship.

ahnhub
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Re: University of Kansas School of Law Dean of Admissions

Postby ahnhub » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:29 pm

abc12345675 wrote:Why are you guys hijacking the Dean's thread? This is supposed to be a Q & A. Not a "let's debate Kansas' employment prospects" thread.


I think the assumption is that by far the most important questions a Dean of a law school could answer about his school is the kind of employment opportunities it affords its graduates.




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