NYU 3L Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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banjo
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby banjo » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:58 am

Thanks for the answers, guys. I'm glad that OCS is so helpful.

chasgoose
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby chasgoose » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:51 pm

How hard is it to get screeners at la firms? Should I bid them in my top 20 or lower... Torn between NYC and LA (with ties) but I don't want to miss out on NYC screeners when I could have gotten interviews with LA firms by bidding them lower...

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Detrox
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby Detrox » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:44 pm

chasgoose wrote:How hard is it to get screeners at la firms? Should I bid them in my top 20 or lower... Torn between NYC and LA (with ties) but I don't want to miss out on NYC screeners when I could have gotten interviews with LA firms by bidding them lower...


Don't know much about LA specifically. For overall bidding advice: The first and foremost important factor is the total # of interview slots that each firm has. I don't care how popular the firm is, if it has 100+ interview slots it shouldn't be in your top 10. On the other end of the spectrum, if a firm has less than 20 spots, it really needs to be in your top 5-10 if you want any real shot at getting it.

I wouldn't worry too much about "missing NYC screeners" for LA bids. If there are a few major firms you don't happen to get, dropping by their hospitality suite at EIW and leaving your resume and expressing a strong interest to interview can go a long way. For that reason I'd recommend favoring the LA firms since its certainly easier to set up a post-EIW screener in New York than LA. (Note: although a phone interview is the likely screening process for LA, why hinder yourself by removing the benefits of meeting in person?)

Sorry for my lack of better info, but hope this generally helps you and all rising 2Ls planning bids.

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spaceman82
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby spaceman82 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:45 pm

In regard to your advice about avoiding highly-rated professors (when looking for an easy grade) because gunners self-select into their courses, would you say that a person has a better chance of getting a good grade in a course with a "bad" professor?

Would it be possible for you to elaborate on the type of work your friend who struck out at OCI found abroad? Do you still feel that it would be foolish to go in with a focus on international law since jobs in that field are virtually non-existent? I've heard mixed things about this, with some people saying that international law doesn't really exist and others saying that, if you're flexible, it's a legitimate practice area.

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Detrox
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby Detrox » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:46 pm

spaceman82 wrote:In regard to your advice about avoiding highly-rated professors (when looking for an easy grade) because gunners self-select into their courses, would you say that a person has a better chance of getting a good grade in a course with a "bad" professor?

Would it be possible for you to elaborate on the type of work your friend who struck out at OCI found abroad? Do you still feel that it would be foolish to go in with a focus on international law since jobs in that field are virtually non-existent? I've heard mixed things about this, with some people saying that international law doesn't really exist and others saying that, if you're flexible, it's a legitimate practice area.


No, I wouldn't say that people have a better chance at good grades with "bad" professors. I think trying to take classes based on what will be the easiest to get good grades fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the curve. I don't want to overstate the likelihood that you'll get a lower grade in a course with great professors, it's just that you'll be in a class with people who have done well in other courses, probably care about succeeding for clerkships/govt/latin honors etc., and probably most importantly, they care about law school classes because they enjoy the educational experience and were thus willing to stand competiting with everyone in the best taught classes. These people all take classes with bad professors because the subject matter is interesting, or it works with their schedule, or for any # of other reasons. Recognizing all of the above, I would say flat out that I would not choose courses based on a "likelihood" of doing well or doing poorly. I personally do better in classes that I enjoy and find interesting, and it makes the year more tolerable than just the finals week payoff. Find professors and subject areas that you want to experience, and just do your best (cheesy, but probably a way better strategy than trying to get good grades via creative class selection).

As to my friend who's working abroad, he returned to a foreign firm he had landed a 1L summer job at and I believe he is confident that he will have an offer for permanent work after law school. He struck out at OCI really because he sort of relied on his fallback ability to go back to that firm (and regretted it somewhat). His case is in no way representative, I just used him as an example of someone I knew had "struck out."

As for I-Law and jobs, I'm of the view that the critics of I-Law job pursuit are mostly right. It is very very very very very hard to land a permanent job offer at an "I-Law" government or PI place straight out of law school. That being said, two exceptions apply: 1. "International" private sector jobs including international M&A, and to a lesser extent, international trade & arbitration practices. The latter are smaller, but definitely "international law" jobs that conveniently pay very well, however you'll have to be willing/eager to do private firm work and you'll have to stand out enough/get a bit lucky in getting into a firm that does work in that area and wants you to work in it. The former M&A stuff is not really "international law" but it is practicing corporate law in an international environment with international actors. Similarly, international white collar work (FCPA), and transnational litigation, tax work etc. etc. are all "international" law opportunities but are not so much "international law" opportunities.

2. "International law" jobs ARE available as summer work while in law school. These will not lead to permanent offers 99.9% of the time, but if you want the experience, plenty of people (especially at nyu) do these. Internships at UN in Geneva and at The Hague are two i-law internships that I know NYU 1Ls do every year, and I'm certain there are many more. Additionally, clerking/interning for judges at international courts or at the U.S. court of international trade are options for year/summerlong employment in the field although I'm not sure how difficult they are to get (if they're comparable to federal clerkships, im sure they are quite difficult). As I'm trying to portray, there's lots of opportunities to try and practice international law while you're in law school; however once you are out, the "I-Law" permanent job market is next to non-existent if you lack experience and aren't willing to do the jobs I posted in part 1.

yehklwlm
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby yehklwlm » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:41 pm

Should we be thinking about taking professional responsibility 2L year, or do most people take that in 3L?

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Detrox
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby Detrox » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:51 pm

yehklwlm wrote:Should we be thinking about taking professional responsibility 2L year, or do most people take that in 3L?


Completely up to you. I believe most take it 3L but a few take it 2L. Same with Fed. Courts if you're considering clerking.

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spaceman82
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby spaceman82 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:48 pm

Thank you for your response. It was very helpful--especially in regard to international law. It seems that it really is a dead end in most cases; however, just to beat a dead horse, I was wondering if you knew anything about the chances of students getting a fellowship to fund their work with an international organization after graduating and thereby gaining a year or two of experience, which would then put them in a position to compete for an actual paid job? This seems to be the way at least a few NYU grads have gone about things--and is also an approach that I've seen discussed on other sites. But, it's never really mentioned whether one can really expect to be able to do this or whether that kind of funding is really only available to a very select few.

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Detrox
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby Detrox » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:25 am

spaceman82 wrote:Thank you for your response. It was very helpful--especially in regard to international law. It seems that it really is a dead end in most cases; however, just to beat a dead horse, I was wondering if you knew anything about the chances of students getting a fellowship to fund their work with an international organization after graduating and thereby gaining a year or two of experience, which would then put them in a position to compete for an actual paid job? This seems to be the way at least a few NYU grads have gone about things--and is also an approach that I've seen discussed on other sites. But, it's never really mentioned whether one can really expect to be able to do this or whether that kind of funding is really only available to a very select few.


This I really have no idea about sorry. I'd ask OCS as they'd be able to give you a decent answer and put you in touch with people who have done it.

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spaceman82
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby spaceman82 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:43 am

That's okay. I appreciate you taking the time to respond anyway. I'll talk with OCS.

IFoughtTheLaw
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby IFoughtTheLaw » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:18 pm

What's the deal with credit/fail classes? I see that I'm allowed two of these over my 2L and 3L years.

Do people always use them in order to get some easy credits, or is this looked down upon by employers, clerkships, etc.?

Thanks!

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Detrox
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby Detrox » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:03 pm

IFoughtTheLaw wrote:What's the deal with credit/fail classes? I see that I'm allowed two of these over my 2L and 3L years.

Do people always use them in order to get some easy credits, or is this looked down upon by employers, clerkships, etc.?

Thanks!


Don't personally know anyone who has taken a pass/fail class. It would be pretty hard not to meet the credit minimum by the end of 3L year, you'd have to take the minimum number of credits every semester and not do journal or something, so credit/fail isn't really that attractive for extra credits. I think I'd consider it for a class thats very academic or irrelevant to your career (like Nietzche and the Law or something).

As to it being "looked down on" by employers or clerkships, I wouldn't be able to say with any real authority; however, employers generally do not care what classes you take unless you're targeting a niche practice. Litigatiors should take Evidence, Tax people obviously should take Tax, Corporate people should take some corporate stuff, and everyone who wants Biglaw should really take Corporations, but beyond this, employers aren't going to look at much on your transcript besides grades. Thus, I wouldn't take the classes I listed above credit/fail, but anything else is probably fair game for non-clerkship purposes.

Judges on the other hand will care slightly more about what classes you take, and this will depend highly on the judge. Fed. Courts is an obvious one. If you're going for clerkships I probably wouldn't take any bar or substantive class credit/fail, but this still leaves open things like seminars or academicish classes which again, I highly doubt judges/employers would care about if they're graded, pass/fail, or not there at all. Just make sure your transcript doesn't scream "fluff" and you'll be fine.

lemony
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby lemony » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:43 pm

Hi there! I noticed that NYU Law has a wide range of partner universities that it coordinates its study abroad exchange program with (and it seems that there are very limited spots). I studied abroad for a summer in undergrad, and I've been perusing study abroad offerings at various law schools. Have you had any experience with studying abroad in law school? How is studying abroad in law school generally regarded by students, firms that are hiring, etc?

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:22 am

1. When student loan funds are disbursed, is it disbursed to the student or directly to the school?

2. is it disbursed before each 1L/2L/3L year or all 3 years at once? or by semesters?

3. (not specific to NYU but i want to ask anyways)
when student loan interest accrues (before capitalization at the end of the grace period), is the interest calculation based on the loan taken out or on the running principal balance (assuming that the principal balance can/will be paid down if i ever find some disposable funds here and there)?

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:25 am

Detrox wrote:Don't know much about LA specifically. For overall bidding advice: The first and foremost important factor is the total # of interview slots that each firm has. I don't care how popular the firm is, if it has 100+ interview slots it shouldn't be in your top 10. On the other end of the spectrum, if a firm has less than 20 spots, it really needs to be in your top 5-10 if you want any real shot at getting it.


why?

also, why is there bidding if it is a lottery process at NYU?

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spacepenguin
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby spacepenguin » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:12 am

HarlandBassett wrote:
Detrox wrote:Don't know much about LA specifically. For overall bidding advice: The first and foremost important factor is the total # of interview slots that each firm has. I don't care how popular the firm is, if it has 100+ interview slots it shouldn't be in your top 10. On the other end of the spectrum, if a firm has less than 20 spots, it really needs to be in your top 5-10 if you want any real shot at getting it.


why?

also, why is there bidding if it is a lottery process at NYU?


Because more interview slots means a higher probability of getting an interview....

Also, it's a "weighted lottery" in the sense that the higher you bid, the more likely you'll get a particular interview. Think of firm X having 100 slots in which they pick out who they interview by picking out a random ball out of a bag. The higher you bid them, the more balls you'll have in the bag, thus increasing your chance of landing an interview with said firm. It doesn't exactly work that way, but conceptually it's the same idea.

So it's a lottery in the sense that you could still hypothetically be screwed even if you bid a firm first...but it's highly unlikely.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:49 pm

spacepenguin wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
Detrox wrote:Don't know much about LA specifically. For overall bidding advice: The first and foremost important factor is the total # of interview slots that each firm has. I don't care how popular the firm is, if it has 100+ interview slots it shouldn't be in your top 10. On the other end of the spectrum, if a firm has less than 20 spots, it really needs to be in your top 5-10 if you want any real shot at getting it.


why?

also, why is there bidding if it is a lottery process at NYU?


Because more interview slots means a higher probability of getting an interview....

doesnt make sense to me. elaborate please.

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spacepenguin
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby spacepenguin » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:00 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:doesnt make sense to me. elaborate please.


Can't tell if you're serious...

But here it goes:

Any given EIW cycle there will roughly be 500 or so people (transfers + 1L class size) in the bidding pool. Of those 500, let's say 100 (pretty conservative amount) self-select themselves out of even bidding for this hypothetical 100+ interview firm. If everyone bid this hypothetical firm first, you would have a 1/4 chance (again, it's probably higher considering that other interview times might conflict thus eliminating even more people) of getting an interview (100/400). Those are pretty good odds considering:

1) 400 people aren't going to bid the firm at number 1; and
2) You want to maximize the amount of interviews you get at EIW

I used really conservative numbers; the reality is that even in the worst case scenario of everyone bidding them at 1, you would still probably have a 50/50 shot of getting an interview.

So if you waste your number 1 bid on this firm (when you could have gotten them at 20), then you're essentially screwing yourself from getting an interview from a firm that would require you to bid them at 1 (say, a firm with 20 interview slots).

Yes, you're still gambling, but it's a pretty safe bet.

tl;dr:

100+ interviews offsets any "popularity" boost a firm has.
More interviews with the same amount of people bidding staying fixed necessarily increases your chances (all else equal: x/500 with x being # of interviews)

IFoughtTheLaw
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby IFoughtTheLaw » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:43 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
spacepenguin wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
Detrox wrote:Don't know much about LA specifically. For overall bidding advice: The first and foremost important factor is the total # of interview slots that each firm has. I don't care how popular the firm is, if it has 100+ interview slots it shouldn't be in your top 10. On the other end of the spectrum, if a firm has less than 20 spots, it really needs to be in your top 5-10 if you want any real shot at getting it.


why?

also, why is there bidding if it is a lottery process at NYU?


Because more interview slots means a higher probability of getting an interview....

doesnt make sense to me. elaborate please.



I'm all for being proactive, but if you're a 0L, please go away. A year ahead is much too soon to worry about this. It will make more sense after OCS explains the system to you in the spring. Then come back here.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:03 pm

spacepenguin wrote:So if you waste your number 1 bid on this firm (when you could have gotten them at 20), then you're essentially screwing yourself from getting an interview from a firm that would require you to bid them at 1 (say, a firm with 20 interview slots).

Yes, you're still gambling, but it's a pretty safe bet.

tl;dr:

100+ interviews offsets any "popularity" boost a firm has.
More interviews with the same amount of people bidding staying fixed necessarily increases your chances (all else equal: x/500 with x being # of interviews)

thanks. i didnt account for the 20 slot firm; i was looking at the 100 slot firm

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:05 pm

IFoughtTheLaw wrote:I'm all for being proactive, but if you're a 0L, please go away. A year ahead is much too soon to worry about this. It will make more sense after OCS explains the system to you in the spring. Then come back here.

noted, but COA/debt and EIW/OCI are the biggest factors for me so i would want to know instead of letting it swirl incessantly in my head.

IFoughtTheLaw
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby IFoughtTheLaw » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:08 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
IFoughtTheLaw wrote:I'm all for being proactive, but if you're a 0L, please go away. A year ahead is much too soon to worry about this. It will make more sense after OCS explains the system to you in the spring. Then come back here.

noted, but COA/debt and EIW/OCI are the biggest factors for me so i would want to know instead of letting it swirl incessantly in my head.


You are talking about how to best game the bid system so that you end up with 30 instead of 23 interviews. You won't remember any of this in a year. And it may change.

Focus on making friends, getting good grades, learning what kind of law you want to practice, researching firms, anything but this.

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JAJAcinco
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby JAJAcinco » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:13 pm

Thanks for all of the above responses OP.

The general consensus on TLS seems to be that DC is a tough market to crack in general (firm, PI, and gov.) Do you have any impressions on that from you/your classmates' experiences applying for jobs?
Apologies if the question is vague, im just trying to get an impression of how (im)probable that goal would be coming out of NYU.

Really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Good luck on the bar!

ksllaw
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby ksllaw » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:01 am

Thank you for taking questions. It's very generous of you and interesting for us to read.

Some quick questions:

--How much time did you spend studying a night? And what was the typical workload like (....e.g. 300 pages a night?)?

--How did you handle the competition aspect of law school (both mentally and practically speaking)? Do you find that the intensity ever becomes unhealthy?

--How much free and social time did you have in law school?

--What was your reason for attending law school and do you have any regrets at all?

Thanks so much in advance!!! And best of luck to you as you finish up!

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Stanford4Me
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Re: NYU 3L Taking Questions

Postby Stanford4Me » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:33 am

ksllaw wrote:Thank you for taking questions. It's very generous of you and interesting for us to read.

Some quick questions:

--How much time did you spend studying a night? And what was the typical workload like (....e.g. 300 pages a night?)?

--How did you handle the competition aspect of law school (both mentally and practically speaking)? Do you find that the intensity ever becomes unhealthy?

--How much free and social time did you have in law school?

--What was your reason for attending law school and do you have any regrets at all?

Thanks so much in advance!!! And best of luck to you as you finish up!

I'm not OP, but I am an NYU 3L

-- My 1L year I I was generally done with class between 12:00 and 2:00, so I'd go to my apartment, eat lunch, and study for a few hours. The reading load was never overwhelming, I don't ever remember reading more than 100 pages a night (I don't even know if I ever approached 100). Obviously, this will vary depending on what kind of prep you do and the extent to which you use supplements. Things changed my 2L year because I took some seminars, which are much more reading intensive.

-- I just don't care about competition. I think how you handle competition will depend on your personality. While NYU is full of high-achieving individuals, it rarely gets grossly competitive. I had to leave school for about a week an a half during the second semester of my 1L year, and I received at LEAST 10 e-mails form classmates asking if I wanted their notes from the day's classes. I also self-selected into one of the more laid-back circles in the law school. I know some people let the competition/stress get to them, and it definitely showed, physically.

-- I die without social activity, so I made sure to be as social as possible. I joined an intramural basketball league and also played flag football (which most everyone does, as it's a law school flag football league). I went to plenty of Bar Reviews, and would generally hang out with friends on Friday night. A group of friends and I also designated our Saturday as the day to go and explore the New York area. This lasted up until about a month before finals. Again, how much social time you allow yourself is totally dependent on your personality. I have some friends who weren't as social, because they just...weren't as social.

-- I attended law school because while Management Consulting was appealing to me (what I would've done if I hadn't gone to law school), the prospect of working at a BigLaw firm was more appealing. It's odd, but I like corporate work and look forward to doing it after graduation. My only regret is that I wasn't more aggressive with scholarships, I'm sure I could've gotten more money had I worked some magic.




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