University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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deadpoetnsp
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby deadpoetnsp » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:58 pm

This is the view from one of the classrooms at UMN. Not too bad!

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Helmholtz
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:08 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:This is the view from one of the classrooms at UMN. Not too bad!

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Want to see actual classrooms please.

Also, I can't tell if the "Not too bad!" is being sarcastic or not....

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:11 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:This is the view from one of the classrooms at UMN. Not too bad!

[img]chair[/img]

[img]grass[/img]


Want to see actual classrooms please.

Also, I can't tell if the "Not too bad!" is being sarcastic or not....


Well the first guy said the rooms have no windows, so I'll take this as a rebuttal. Carry on...

satirian
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby satirian » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:08 am

0L Here.
I spent a day wandering through/around UMN Law. It wasn’t an official visit. I went everywhere. No one ever asked me what I was doing there, so I just hung out and tried to get a feel for the day to day life of a UMN law student. I sat outside classrooms with students waiting for class to start. I went to the library. I even went around the corner and down the hall to the shoebox that passes for “career services.” I have to say it (CS) seemed pretty dismal and depressing.I did, and saw everything I could. On the whole, the law school seemed ok (not stellar, just ok). FWIW, although I liked the building and grounds, I can easily understand why someone (or lots of someones) might be put off by the dungeon-like feel of the subterranean classrooms, and the maze-like architectural site plan that seems to be the result afterthought as opposed to forethought.
The point to this post is…
While I kind of liked my visit, don’t be so quick to dismiss what OP is saying. It is easy for me to see how a person could develop his attitude over time.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby deadpoetnsp » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:23 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:This is the view from one of the classrooms at UMN. Not too bad!

[img]chair[/img]

[img]grass[/img]


Want to see actual classrooms please.

Also, I can't tell if the "Not too bad!" is being sarcastic or not....


Well the first guy said the rooms have no windows, so I'll take this as a rebuttal. Carry on...



Here's the classroom from which the image was taken.
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The caption "Not too bad!" was intended to be sincere, though I can see why it might look sarcastic to seasoned TLSers!

Yes, there are classrooms without windows. But I think overall the student body is very friendly and supportive, which makes for a nice atmosphere. The Professors are great and engaging, and my section has involved and passionate legal writing instructors. Many of my 1L section-mates find the library carrels and the dedicated study rooms to be quite useful. I'm only a 1L, so am in no position to comment on the job situation.

I'm not trying to be ultra-optimistic. I am also not trying to counter OP's perspectives, which are obviously more nuanced and come from far greater experience. I'm just pointing out that some of us find the facilities (classes, building, etc.) to be fine or even good.

The one thing that I hate is the mandatory laptop policy. I do not use the laptop for school, nor plan to use it other than for exams, for which it's required. I brief and write notes on paper. The laptop's OK by itself, it's just too clunky and old-schooly and expensive and you can get a Toshiba or a Dell with better specs for a lower price. The administration justifies the policy by saying that in the past, students have appreciated the laptop policy since it's accompanied by a warranty that supposedly takes care of everything and that if it dies, say just a day or an hour before exams, you don't have to worry about anything.

I'm supposed to hand in my legal writing assignment early tomorrow morning so I'll get back to it now.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:37 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
deadpoetnsp wrote:This is the view from one of the classrooms at UMN. Not too bad!
[img]chair[/img]
[img]grass[/img]

Also, I can't tell if the "Not too bad!" is being sarcastic or not....

Well the first guy said the rooms have no windows, so I'll take this as a rebuttal. Carry on...


Okay, well first of all, I never said that none of the classrooms have windows.

Second of all, I don't understand this "rebuttal" nonsense. This is not a debate. I'm not out to "prove" anything. There aren't "sides." I'm just telling you what the school is like, by virtue of actually attending the wretched institution. If you don't want to believe me, then come see it for yourself. If you think it's all right, then you're welcome to apply. There's only one person who has anything to lose by your coming here, and it isn't me. Anyone who wants proof-positive should definitely matriculate and spend the next three years collecting evidence of UMN's horrors to their heart's content, if "evidence" is what they're really seeking. :roll:

Thirdly, I wonder whether the people claiming that the facilities at this school are "acceptable," aren't really just expressing indifference as to facilities generally. I mean, for anyone who thinks it isn't abysmal, I'd be curious just how bad things would have to get before you did consider it unacceptably crappy? I mean, would it literally have to be an actual, functioning, medieval dungeon? I mean, how much worse than this does it have to be? Really, how much worse could it get?

Fourthly, while I was the one who brought up the issue, I actually think too much is being made of the facilities. The worst thing about the school is the administration. The people running the place are totally incompetent, unpleasant, small-minded bureaucrats. They will make your life miserable in ways you can't even imagine. The poorly thought-out curriculum and crappy employment prospects rank second and third respectively. So, just to put things in perspective, I think the utter crappiness of the facilities are relatively low in the hierarchy of problems. This is not to say that the facilities aren't, in fact, horrible. It's just to say that the importance of this issue is secondary to other, yet more horrible horrors.

Finally, having said all that, I did promise I'd take some pictures, so here they are. Mind you, I don't think these should be construed as "proof" or "evidence" of an argument. There's no "argument" here. This is how things are, take it or leave it. Anyway, rather than describing with words, I think photos might prove to be more concrete (pun) examples of what I'm talking about, so that those of you considering UMN Law can see and judge for yourselves how bad UMN is in this regard.

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So. Let's start this photo tour, appropriately, in the crapper. Sadly, what the photos cannot reproduce is the distinct atmosphere of the place, the delicate aroma of which puts one in mind of a zoo.

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Here we have some of the main hallway corridors, where you will spend much time frolicking with your classmates. Not at all gloomy or depressing, right? Not the least bit soul-draining!

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Here we have the locker room. Without knowing beforehand, if you had to guess, would you suppose this to be a picture of: (1) a high school, (2) a community college, (3) an ostensibly "tier 1" law school. Seriously.

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Now, you might imagine that for what you're paying in tuition, the school might give you a locker. Not so! You've got to cough up an extra $10 for the privilege of storing your books in one of these lovely receptacles. Notice the decorative rust accents, which give the otherwise cold aluminum vessel such a festive air.

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Here we have one of the large classrooms. To be clear, this room is windowless. Now, I will gladly concede that this is not literally a dungeon. I use the term figuratively. If you think spending hours upon hours in here does not sound suicide-inducing, then you may have what it takes to be a UMN law student! Get that application in the mail!

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Sadly, what the wide pictures fail to capture are a lot of the little details. For example, here's a closeup of a desk's wooden trim, which you can see has been broken off, leaving splintery remnants -- a typical example of the general disrepair of the dump, which is unfortunately lost in the gloss and glamor of the wide-angle shots.

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Here, you can see the strange, mysterious gunk that encrusts the fronts of the desks at regular intervals. Note also the subtle glare of grease and sticky gunk that can be seen reflecting off the surface of the desktops.

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Here's a pretty good closeup of the stainless steel door frame, chipped and mottled as it is.

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Here is one of the many (much abused) paintings of creepy dead guys that festoon the classrooms. Note the sense of history and grandeur it lends to the adjacent electrical hose and the peeling paint on the walls.

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Here is another one of the classrooms. Again, this one is windowless.

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Observe, in this closeup, the fine workmanship of the panelling.

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Here, you can see one of the smaller classrooms, which does have windows. Note the braided steel wire, fastening the chair to the desks nearest the door (foreground) to prevent theft of that sublime piece of furniture design. Of course, nothing says "positive environment" like a school that doesn't trust its students not to steal a crappy plastic chair.

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That is, except for a metal chain ensuring that no one will walk off with the plywood book stand -- at least not without taking the formica console with him!

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Here is another shot of the breathtakingly "acceptable" pipe & panels motif of the building.

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Here are some shots of the legendary ceilings. Notice the curious bullet-hole-esque pits that pepper the concrete.

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The matted, dusty, stained carpeting deserves some attention.

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Observe here the electrical hose, which runs to every center console in every classroom. This particularly attractive tort-suit-waiting-to-happen is particularly ironic feature of all the smaller classrooms at the UMN Law School.

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This is just a random colloidal stain, smeared onto one of the many cement columns holding up the ceiling. I've noticed this little beauty for several months now.


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More of the same from another of the smaller rooms.

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Here are some photos of the really, really tiny rooms. These are windowless.

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Again, I feel concerned that these wide-angle photos fail to do justice to how run-down the place is. So, here's a closeup of the light switch, (busted) thermostat, and a mysterious circular stain.

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Here's another one of the larger classrooms. Again, this one is windowless. Again, notice the braided stainless steel, ensuring that no one absconds with the law school's precious plastic chairs.

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These monitors here represent the very latest in CRT design. Of course, no one should really be complaining about the ancient technology to be found in these classrooms, since none of it works anyway.

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Crappy little desk microphones.

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Another ghostly painting of some long-dead law professor or judge or benefactor. Note the sad little hole, which has developed on the bottom right side of the portrait.

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Here's the stairwell. Again, does this gloomy cinderblock maze put you in mind of a law school, or of a failing inner city highschool? To my mind, the humming fluorescent lights and parking-garage ambiance remind me of the scene where Melfi (the psychotherapist) gets raped in season 3 of The Sopranos. Ah, so creepy. So creepy.
Last edited by daniel3.14 on Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:48 pm

Thank you for that. Some of those evoked a "oh, not as bad as I expected" (e.g. wide shot of first large room pictured, wide shot of room with windows) while others resulted in a "holy ssshhhit, man" (e.g. main hall corridors, locker room, pieces of furniture chained and locked, hanging wire, stairwell).

I guess they're saving money, though?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:52 pm

All time great post.

If the law school thing doesn't work out you should look into photojournalism.

Seriously, thanks for all the work you put into that.

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YourCaptain
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby YourCaptain » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:00 pm

:(

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:02 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Thank you for that. Some of those evoked a "oh, not as bad as I expected" (e.g. wide shot of first large room pictured, wide shot of room with windows) while others resulted in a "holy ssshhhit, man" (e.g. main hall corridors, locker room, pieces of furniture chained and locked, hanging wire, stairwell).


The stuff that's not as bad as expected (the wide shots generally, right?) are largely because the resolution of my iPhone fails to pick up the peeling paint, nasty stains, and other details you'd only notice upon closer inspection. Also, it fails to capture the mildew scent that permeates the place (I remind you that the classrooms are all located in the basement).

Also, I would like to reiterate that, despite the attention that's been paid to the crappy quality of the facilities (the WiFi is spotty and the electrical equipment in the classrooms is marginally functional, if at all), this is secondary. The actual administration of the school is so much worse than the physical appearance -- and that is so much more important. Also, the design of the curriculum, and your career prospects upon graduation.


Tiago Splitter wrote:All time great post.

If the law school thing doesn't work out you should look into photojournalism.

Seriously, thanks for all the work you put into that.


You're welcome! I wish I'd actually visited in person this toilet bowl before I accepted, back when I was a 0L.

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ThomasMN
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby ThomasMN » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:02 pm

Sad to say but those classrooms are the worst I have ever seen of any school in Minnesota period. The lecture halls in the community colleges here (MN) are of better quality than those. Makes me wonder what on earth the U is doing.

dougroberts
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby dougroberts » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:03 pm

These are breathtaking photos. They make Moos Tower look like a Gaddafi palace.

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Redzo
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby Redzo » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:52 am

I second the suggestion of photojournalism. And I second my own remark earlier in the thread that you are a very sharp and entertaining writer; "breathtakingly acceptable" made me laugh.

Your school kinda reminds me of Aperture Laboratories... I imagined that the Dean of Students was GLaDOS. (I apologize in advance if you don't get the reference to Portal.)

Sandro
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby Sandro » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:13 am

holy crap and I thought UMN's building wasnt that bad when I visited. I almost went there.

satirian
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby satirian » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:46 am

Yeah, this thread kind of makes me ask myself – “How did I miss all that?”

071816
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby 071816 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:48 am

Damn that place looks like a depressing dung pile.

crit_racer
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby crit_racer » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:58 am

This thread is awesome. UMN looks/sounds shity. I admit UTs facilities are not exactly awe-inspiring, but they are in no way depressing like "the U" (I always thoght that was for UMiami?).

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buddythedog
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby buddythedog » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:07 pm

Oh wow, Daniel has outdone himself on this thread. As another current 2L at UMN law, I think it's worth noting that not everyone is as hopelessly miserable as he is. The source of his bitterness can be found here (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=162896) where Daniel describes his 2.8 gpa from his first semester of law school. Yes, if you get a 2.8 in your first semester of law school, it will significantly hurt your chances of getting a job, let alone a firm job.

I have to concede, the job market is not strong. However, if you are looking to work in MN, your chances are much better. One of the top firms in Minneapolis had 7 UMN students in their summer associate class this past summer. The class only consisted of 14. If you do well during your 1L year (gpa of 3.5+), firm jobs in Minneapolis are absolutely achievable. Keep in mind that personality will be a factor in this as well. Firms are much less willing to hire a 3.9 who will scare away clients with their awkwardness.

The school isn't stunning, but why is this such a big deal? For three years, you go to class, study in the window-filled library, and then go home. It really should be quite manageable.

Don't take Daniel's word on everything. If you can, come see the school for yourself. If you think you would be miserable having some classes in a windowless room, then that is something you should take into consideration when choosing where to apply. At least try to find someone else who is currently at Minnesota Law to give you a second opinion - Daniel's view is too jaded to be objective.
Last edited by buddythedog on Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shoeshine
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby shoeshine » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:11 pm

RC Fail
Last edited by shoeshine on Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

midwestls
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby midwestls » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:47 pm

The dude disclosed the first semester GPA early in the thread, Dick Tracy.

Those photos are brutal. I went to a T3/T4 where the occasional homeless person used to wander in and watch TV in the student lounge and even there they didn't feel the need to chain stuff down. The message that sends is striking.

There are things you can't do anything about - the building is the building. But chaining stuff up? At a supposedly top 25 law school? As I said, it sends a message, and it's not a good one.

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minnbills
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby minnbills » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:09 pm

.
Last edited by minnbills on Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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beachbum
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby beachbum » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:52 pm

chimp wrote:Damn that place looks like a depressing dung pile.

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somewherewarm
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby somewherewarm » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Second of all, I don't understand this "rebuttal" nonsense. This is not a debate. I'm not out to "prove" anything. There aren't "sides."


I'm just telling you what the school is like, by virtue of actually attending the wretched institution. If you don't want to believe me, then come see it for yourself.


Anyone who wants proof-positive should definitely matriculate and spend the next three years collecting evidence of UMN's horrors to their heart's content, if "evidence" is what they're really seeking.


Hang on... I don't see how someone can say he isn't making an argument, or picking a side, when he then goes on to call an institution "wretched" and invite 0Ls to see that institution's "horrors" for themselves. I applaud daniel pi for taking a stand in this - I'd like to see more disaffected law students talking specifics about their schools, it gives us applying some serious food for thought - but for a second year law student to say he isn't making an argument when he clearly is is surprising.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:37 pm

buddythedog wrote:Oh wow, Daniel Pi has outdone himself on this thread. As another current 2L at UMN law, I think it's worth noting that not everyone is as hopelessly miserable as he is.


I never claimed that "everyone" at the school is hopelessly miserable. But if you're suggesting I'm an outlier, then I think it'd be great to settle this with a poll. Based on water cooler discussions, I'd wager it'd probably be 60-70% overall negative experience, 10-20% overall positive experience, and 10-20% neutral.

buddythedog wrote:The source of his bitterness can be found here (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=162896) where Daniel describes his 2.8 gpa from his first semester of law school.


First of all, to quote midwestls:

midwestls wrote:The dude disclosed the first semester GPA early in the thread, Dick Tracy.


Well put. Indeed, I've tried my best to be quite up front about everything from the get-go. From my first post, I said that my experience with UMN was negative, and that most of my answers were going to reflect that perspective.

So tell me, buddythedog, what was your GPA? Hm? What moot court did you get stuck in?

buddythedog wrote:Yes, if you get a 2.8 in your first semester of law school, it will significantly hurt your chances of getting a job, let alone a firm job.


You know, buddythedog, if you want people to like you, then it's best not to act like a condescending prick. First of all, I didn't get a 2.8, I got a 2.7. Second of all, you seem to miss the point entirely. The point of publicizing this sad anecdote is not to vent my personal frustrations. Rather, it's to give an example of some stupid policies revolving around the exams and the laptop program. And why would I give such an example? Because I was prompted to give an example. And guess who one of the prompters was? You! That's right. In the other thread, I mentioned the ExamSoft snafu in response to your comment that "no one" you knew had to hand write their exams, and that the stupid policy was not a problem. My personal experience (and I was evidently not the only one) contradicts your reassurances that the policy didn't affect anyone. And instead of acknowledging the counterexample, you took this as fodder for an ad hominem fallacy, which you promptly launched against me. Classy.

And let's be clear about whether that 2.7 was a reflection of my performance, or a case of getting screwed by a crappily run school. I got a 3.8 my second semester. I also got "best oralist" in my legal writing section and a book award ("book awards" are these things they give to the highest scorer in a class). Why do you think that was? Hm? Do you think that's because I studied extra hard? Do you think that's because I learned from my mistakes? No! I hardly studied at all second semester. The fact of the matter is that I should've been in the top 10% in the first semester. Was it a fluke? Seriously, no one goes from a 2.7 to a 3.8 in one semester, and I'd be willing to wager I stay comfortably in the top quartile for every other semester I'm here (assuming the admin doesn't screw me again and force me to type my exams with my toes or something). And the obvious explanation is that I got screwed by a stupid policy, implemented by imbecilic, inflexible administrators.

Now, let's be clear. I never wanted a big law job anyway. But I sure as heck would've liked the opportunity to be the one to get to decide that I didn't want to do it. And I sure as heck was interested in clerking after law school. So yeah, I got screwed. And it's not like they're not going to screw other people. That's rather the point of the scary story, right? It's not about feeling sorry for me. It's a warning that this school screws its own students in order to make things more convenient for the lazy, idiotic staff.

But the thing that you say that's most misleading is that the grades were the most salient part of my criticism of UMN. It wasn't. I mentioned it briefly, and only amidst a laundry list of other complaints. I've been very clear about what UMN's problems are, and I've given numerous examples.

I don't think the administration is incompetent only because they screwed me over. I think they're incompetent because they screwed everyone over with the laptop program, the P&P fiasco that caused widespread protest, a petition, and threats of a walk-out by 90% of the 1L class, not paying adjuncts more than McDonald's workers, thereby attracting large numbers of incompetent workers. Indeed, I've given any number of examples as to why UMN is a terrible school, which are based on facts, and which add up to a pretty comprehensive picture of its problems.

The curriculum is a complete mess. They have zero coordination, they put no effort into getting decent lecturers for the 1L lectures, and they generally treat students like an inconvenience rather than the reason the law school exists.

And the building is horrendous -- about as bad as a building could be with electrical wires dangling from the ceiling, and crappy plastic furniture chained down -- and your saying "it's not that bad" really doesn't hold water when there are photos of the dump right here for anyone to see for themselves.

Seriously, your comment is really obtuse. I'll quote it again:

buddythedog wrote:Yes, if you get a 2.8 in your first semester of law school, it will significantly hurt your chances of getting a job, let alone a firm job.


I never once complained that I didn't get a firm job. You can go through this thread with a fine-toothed comb and check. I never once indicated that I sought a firm job. As I say, I was never looking to do that anyway. But you make it sound like I got a 2.7 after taking the exams fair and square. You don't mention that I was forced to take it under dramatically different conditions -- in a separate room -- which is why I disclosed it in the first place here, and which was the whole point of mentioning it. You don't mention that when I was allowed to take the exams like everyone else, the following semester, my GPA was a 3.8 (with barely any studying!). And you make it sound like I was blaming the school, because firms weren't hiring someone witha 2.7 GPA. I never made any such complaint, and you're really just trying to smear me to protect the reputation of UMN.

And let me be 100% crystal clear. I have no problem with you expressing a positive opinion of UMN Law. That's totally cool. I think that's just as useful to prospective students as my negative reactions. I have no problem with you having had a good experience here (why would I?). And I have no problem with you expressing that. I think it could be a valuable contribution to the discussion. What bugs me is that rather than talking about your "positive experiences," you're really just trying to downplay the school's very real problems, which is not really adding anything to the discussion (it's just "spin"), and trying to undermine my credibility.

If you've had such a great time at UMN, why don't you talk about what mind-blowingly fun times you've had hanging out with Dean Wippman or whatever you've been doing?

buddythedog wrote:I have to concede, the job market is not strong.


That's not the issue. The job market is weak for every school. UMN is placing particularly poorly. The issue is that UMN is relatively worse than other schools. Perhaps you should read the thread before you post in it.

buddythedog wrote:The school isn't stunning, but why is this such a big deal? For three years, you go to class, study in the window-filled library, and then go home. It really should be quite manageable.


Window filled library? Seriously? It does have windows, but I wouldn't really say that the atmosphere is all too different from what's in the photos. Dingy, dirty, and in a state of utter disrepair.

And really, "the school isn't stunning," is the understatement of the year. Look, you can dance around it all you like. The photos don't lie. The place is an absolute dump. If you think it's "not that bad," then you're basically saying that you're impervious to the quality of your environment. That's great for you, but don't assume that the whole world is as insensitive to wallowing in a dung heap as you are.

buddythedog wrote:Don't take Daniel's word on everything. If you can, come see the school for yourself.


I second that. I think if you actually visit this place, you'll see that it's much, much worse than the photos depict. For one thing, photos can't capture odors. And you should take a look at the laptops. What you don't get out of watching a video is the feeling of holding that 20lbs monstrosity in your hands.

buddythedog wrote:At least try to find someone else who is currently at Minnesota Law to give you a second opinion - Daniel's view is too jaded to be objective.


And the opinion of someone who misuses words like "jaded" really seems like it's coming from an informed guy, who knows what he's talking about. Here's the thing, I'm just giving my $0.02, and I never ever claimed I was doing more than that. I've always said that there are other opinions out there, and I think anyone considering law schools should take in all of them.

I have no problem with people who have different impressions of UMN Law than I do. I'm not going to argue with anyone about whether their experiences were positive or negative. What I do have a problem with is this sniveling little worm trying to "defend" the school in a misplaced sense of tribalistic pride. What I have a problem with is this troglodyte attacking my motives for giving what is an honest reporting of my experiences at this school (with video and photos!). There's really no argumentative "tactic" that's lower or more contemptible than attacking a person's motives rather than the substance of what he's said. And that, truly, is reason for buddythedog to feel shame.

And that's what it's like to see a guy get "pwned," folks.
Last edited by daniel3.14 on Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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daniel3.14
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Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...

Postby daniel3.14 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:00 pm

minnbills wrote:Bottom line is that people who've grown up here in MN (as I have) know the U's reputation.


I grew up in MN.

minnbills wrote:As an undergrad here I've come to really love this institution. It's given me a great education. Because of my experience (after transferring from a private school I hated) I really do trust the administration of the university as a whole. Other than what Daniel has said, I've never had a reason to doubt the admins at UMN law either.


First: if you already know what it's like, then why are you here posting questions?

Second: You think that you know what the law school is like, better than the students who go there, because you're a 0L who goes to the undergraduate part of the same university? It's a completely different institution. Different administrators, different everything. The current dean is contemplating breaking off the law school from the university formally. So, whatever your experience with the undergraduate part of UMN has been, it really should not be a basis for your thinking you know what it's like to be a law student here.

minnbills wrote:It's true that the facilities aren't very nice- something no one has denied.


You have! You've denied it! You've said it's "not that bad."

minnbills wrote:Certain things, like some of the furniture being chained down and the electrical cords, are pretty easily explainable. The buildings are basically bomb shelters. They're made entirely of concrete, brick and terrazo floors, as was typical in the state of Minnesota in the 50-70s. My high school, for example, is the same. The exposed piping was sort of in vogue at the time, for god knows what reason. Again, my high school was the same.


What's it with you and terrazzo? It's dirty, 20 year old carpeting. And it sounds like you went to a pretty ugly high school.

minnbills wrote:More importantly, Daniel also neglected to mention the budget problems wracking the University of Minnesota as a whole. The state legislature has been targeting education to deal with their own budget problems with the result being that most programs have had to scale back. One of the first things to be targeted is cleaning. For example, in CLA the history department now only has its office building cleaned about once a month. It sucks, but I think everyone at the U would rather see this scenario than scholarships being pulled back or faculty being fired.


Dude. Seriously?

Look, ask me to vote for a budget increase, and I will. Do I think it sucks that UMN has budget problems? Sure. But that doesn't change the fact (indeed, your using it as an excuse sort of acknowledges the fact) that UMN Law is a pretty crappy institution.

somewherewarm wrote:Hang on... I don't see how someone can say he isn't making an argument, or picking a side, when he then goes on to call an institution "wretched" and invite 0Ls to see that institution's "horrors" for themselves. I applaud daniel pi for taking a stand in this - I'd like to see more disaffected law students talking specifics about their schools, it gives us applying some serious food for thought - but for a second year law student to say he isn't making an argument when he clearly is is surprising.


An argument is a premise+inference+conclusion. For example:

Premise: Socrates is a man.
Premise: All men are mortal.
Inference: If Socrates is a man, and all men are mortal, then Socrates is mortal.
Conclusion: Socrates is mortal.

There's none of that going on here. I'm just recounting what I've seen and experienced, mixed in with some opinion-giving. There's nothing like an "argument" in the expression of opinions or reporting of facts.




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