Top-Law-Schools.comTLS
Home
Law School
Admissions
Law
Schools
Law
Students
TLS
Forums
 
Forum Index     Latest Posts     Forum Search     Mobile (on/off)     Forum Archives     See Also: Rankings/Profiles   Interviews   LSAT Prep   TLS Stats


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 204 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:10 pm
Posts: 1537
daniel3.14 wrote:
...Are you now suggesting that UMN's exam policies are reasonable? If so, then how do you explain the fact that no other law school has anything remotely similar to UMN's exam policy?...


CLS has the same policy, that you have to download the blank exam page ahead of time and, if you don't, you have to handwrite the exam. it may be a stupid policy, but UMN is not the only school with that policy.

also, CLS has some chairs chained to the tables. i think the reason is not that they are worried they will be stolen but that someone will move the chair and then someone who needs it won't have it. i bet that's the same reason UMN chains them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
somewhatwayward wrote:
also, CLS has some chairs chained to the tables. i think the reason is not that they are worried they will be stolen but that someone will move the chair and then someone who needs it won't have it. i bet that's the same reason UMN chains them.


Yes, it has been suggested elsewhere that the reason that UMN Law chains down the chairs is for the benefit of poor disabled people. I cannot speak to the reasons why an estimable institution such as CLS may do this, but insofar as UMN's motives for chaining down its furniture, this reason is patently false. First of all, even if it were the case, I'm not sure that it would be a good excuse anyway. Wouldn't it be more civilized to simply label the chairs, "Please Do Not Remove Chairs -- For Disabled Student Use," rather than using chains to physically prevent removal? I mean, even if the motive were proper (note I dispute the claimed motive, but even if it were), the means used to accomplish that goal remain puzzlingly barbaric. Secondly, this doesn't explain the fact that the school chains EVERYTHING down. See:

Image

Image

Image

Image

The explanation that they're chaining the chairs down "for the benefit of the poor, helpless disabled students" doesn't make any sense. How does it benefit disabled students to chain down the podium book stand? How does it benefit them to chain down the video projector, the overhead projector, the console monitor? They chain everything down, because the school has pretty much zero respect for its students. And that is the real reason.

Now, I grant that you may want to chain down the electronics, in the misguided belief that they're valuable targets for theft (market price of the ancient projectors used in the classrooms is less than $50 -- it wouldn't be worth the effort of carrying it out of the building to steal those things, but nevertheless, even if you grant that) -- the book stands? Seriously?

somewhatwayward wrote:
CLS has the same policy, that you have to download the blank exam page ahead of time and, if you don't, you have to handwrite the exam. it may be a stupid policy, but UMN is not the only school with that policy.


Well, I read the Columbia Law School exam policies (http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/ ... h/Notebook), and it seems to me that their policy is not the same. Requiring students to download some software or component ahead-of-time is not the least bit unreasonable. With such a setup, the school is trying to help students, and the students try to cooperate with the school, and all's well in the world.

At UMN, you have an arbitrarily delimited "magic week" sometime in late November, during which you need to download the exam frames. If you don't download the exam frames during this time, you are forbidden from doing it later. You couldn't, for example, download the frames a couple days before the exam. Indeed, you couldn't download them at the beginning of the semester. There is one magic week, during which you must download the frames, else be condemned to handwriting.

And here's the real kicker: the reason you can't is because they password protect the download. They actually prevent you from downloading the exams, unless you downloaded it during the "magic" week. This serves absolutely no purpose, except for creating a pointless and ridiculous obstacle for students. That's right -- they password protect the exam frames from their own students, so that they can't download them. There's literally no one else, from whom they might want to protect the exams. Who else is going to try to download a blank exam document frame for a law school exam, from a student's Examsoft account other than the student who's going to take that exam? No one! They put the password on to block the students from downloading the frames. Their own students are the ones they're specifically trying to block.

Now, if you try to download your exam frames even a week before the exams -- you're too late! And for those who aren't familiar with Examsoft, the frames are blank. They contain no information. They are where you type your answers to the question. When you download them, they are empty. There is no ethical or security based reason for locking these files down.

But rather than describing UMN's idiotic and idiosyncratic exam procedure piecemeal, allow me to describe it in the sequence it occurred for me: First, they had a big 1L lecture, where they explained how to download the exam frames. Sure enough, when you put 250 people in a room, and tell them to download something at exactly the same time, it's going to put a burden on the Wifi. You'd think that the numbskulls in tech services might be able to anticipate that, oh gee, maybe, possibly, there could be increased traffic at that time. Or, for that matter, after years of giving this lecture, you'd think that they could have had a demonstration account ready to go, so they could actually show us what to do on the projector rather than describing it in words. But despite giving this same "lecture" in prior years, they seemed utterly dumbfounded that the Wifi failed at precisely that time -- yet again. Oh, what bad luck, right guys? Who could've guessed?

The Wifi failing, I followed their instructions precisely when I got home, but for some reason, the blank frames did not download for me. I believed that they did (the software installed correctly, and I logged into my account fine), but the exams did not download. Upon discovering the problem, I promptly went to Tech Services, wherein there was one lone employee playing a video game in an otherwise empty office. I asked him what needed to happen for me to download the exam frames, and he said that he needed to enter a password to unlock it for me. I asked how long that would take. He said, "Oh, like five seconds, but you have to get permission from Dean Keyes." Sure enough, in her wisdom and unfailing sense of fairness, Dean Keyes told me that she would not burden the Tech Services guy (who, I repeat, was playing a video game when I walked into the Tech Services office) with the five seconds it would take them to unlock the account.

That would be an excessive burden on the UMN staff. Typing in a password. Five seconds of time, so that I can take the exams on a level playing field. Too much of a burden for UMN Law's video-game-playing Tech Services staffer. She said it with a straight face, too.

Dean Keyes next accused me of the grave sin of skipping the required 1L lecture. Not that I would have been unjustified in skipping those things -- the monumental wastes of time that they are -- but I was actually there. I attended that hour long struggle between Tech Services and their internet connection. Refusing to believe me, she said she'd "investigate," and sure enough they later found my signature on their sign-in sheet (yes, they make you "sign in" to these things, despite the fact that you're paying for them -- this would be like a restaurant making sure you finished all the food on your plate before bringing you dessert). Nevertheless, she had her policy, and there was no way she was going to budge. The policy is the policy is the policy, and far be it for an actual human being to see the absurdity of its application in a particular case. Nay! She was going to enforce that policy -- common sense be damned! To her mind, this seemed like a fair decision. She thought that this was fair. That's what she thought. Fairness. And she's the decision-maker on things like this. The highest level of appeal. Does anyone really need any more reason not to come to this school?

This is not the same policy as CLS. Indeed, at CLS you can even use a Mac! You can use whatever you want to use. You're not forced to purchase a $1,275 Lenovo Junkpad just to take the exams. Now, maybe CLS locks down their exams, too, and only allows downloads during a "magic week," and they just don't describe it on their tech policies page. In that case, I would indeed humbly retract my earlier statement that UMN is the only school with such brain dead exam policies. However, from what they publish online, this does not seem to be the case.

At any rate, I would reiterate that the exam stuff is really just a pretty minor reason not to come to UMN. There are much better reasons not to come here, which have been described at length in this thread. The exam thing is just one amongst a whole panoply of problems at this abysmally inadequate institution.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:58 pm
Posts: 10
1. Are you seriously criticizing the administration for putting an anti-theft device on the projector? Chains on the podium and the reader device are ridiculous, I agree. But dude, projectors are expensive.

daniel3.14 wrote:
At UMN, you have an arbitrarily delimited "magic week" sometime in late November, during which you need to download the exam frames. If you don't download the exam frames during this time, you are forbidden from doing it later. You couldn't, for example, download the frames a couple days before the exam. Indeed, you couldn't download them at the beginning of the semester. There is one magic week, during which you must download the frames, else be condemned to handwriting.

2. Not to be needlessly critical or anything, but my understanding of the practice of law is that there are certain "magic" dates, such as filing deadlines, which need to be met. It is insulting that Dean Keyes apparently said she didn't want to take up LCSC's time to give you the password, but I do understand her decision as a (humiliating) lesson in lawyering.

Also, have you confronted her about the difference between your semester GPAs?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:39 pm
Posts: 7
I posit that these chains are "Chains of Love"! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_o6dd_1ulw


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
narwhal wrote:
1. Are you seriously criticizing the administration for putting an anti-theft device on the projector? Chains on the podium and the reader device are ridiculous, I agree. But dude, projectors are expensive.


At UMN, the projectors barely work -- if they work at all. Also, they're old and "standard definition." The best you could do with one of those things is to sell it for scrap. But even supposing that chaining those down is warranted, we still agree that the chains on the other stuff are ridiculous, so I don't feel particularly compelled to push the point.

narwhal wrote:
2. Not to be needlessly critical or anything, but my understanding of the practice of law is that there are certain "magic" dates, such as filing deadlines, which need to be met. It is insulting that Dean Keyes apparently said she didn't want to take up LCSC's time to give you the password, but I do understand her decision as a (humiliating) lesson in lawyering.


At the end of the day, what's the point of the exams? What is the point of my grade in Contracts? Torts? Civ Pro? Is it to test email-checking skill? Is it to test punctiliousness? To test punctuality? Or is to to test the material? And what does my grade for the test reflect? If they want to make a separate grade for "deadline-meeting," then great. Or have a required course called, "Deadlines," and make it a required, graded 1L course (at least, until the students protest, form a petition, and threaten mass walk-outs). But damnit, I think my Torts grade should reflect how well I learned the Torts course material, and I knew that stuff inside and out. So I'm just going to have to disagree -- I don't think that a "deadline-meeting" evaluation can be bundled into these grades.

Now, if there were some reason why that deadline had to be met, then I might be less hostile to the drawing of a hard line. But there's no reason for it. There's no reason whatsoever for imposing any deadline whatsoever to download the blank exam frames. Moreover, I would point out that I did attend the retarded 1L lecture where they told us how to download the exams, and I went home and I did download the wretched Examsoft software, and I did log in to my account, and I did do all of those things during "magic week." So far as I can tell, it was just buggy software that the exam frames didn't successfully download.

Which is all to say that this doesn't square with the notion that this is a "hard-learned lesson in lawyering," since I did everything they told me to do in the time-frame they told me to do it. Moreover, it's a totally inappropriate way to teach a lesson. I mean, even if I had screwed up (which I didn't), is it fair to impose the penalty of deducting one full point off of that semester's GPA?

And when I tried to transfer away to another (any other!) law school, I requested the school send a brief letter verifying that I did, in fact, hand-write the exams. This was a big part of my pitch to my transfer schools -- to say, look, please interpret the Fall grades with some skepticism, here's what explains the disparity. And you know what UMN said? They said, "No"! They were happy to send a letter telling my transfer schools that I scored in the bottom quartile overall, but they would not send a letter (not so much as a one-sentence note) acknowledging that I hand-wrote my exams. What lesson was I supposed to learn from that?

narwhal wrote:
Also, have you confronted her about the difference between your semester GPAs?


No, I haven't. However, early on during the Spring semester, Dean Keyes made it very clear that they would make absolutely no accommodations for me whatsoever regarding the exam snafu. As I understand it, her job has less to do with actually fixing problems than getting students with complaints to shut up. If I were to bring it up with anyone, I suppose I'd look to speak to someone above her in the administrative hierarchy, but I suspect too much time has passed to re-raise the issue.

But ultimately, these are just mere details. Indeed, while I think my getting screwed is a pretty illustrative example of UMN's administrative incompetence and recalcitrance, the primary reasons why prospective students should avoid this heap of a building like the plague are: the thoroughly clueless adjuncts they have teaching LW and P&P; the crumbling and ancient infrastructure; the shoddy pastiche of a curriculum; and an utterly insensitive, ineffectual, and contemptuous administration.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:14 pm
Posts: 2
I'm a MN 2L. I'm posting here because I had a different experience than some of the other posters.

The 1L lectures were boring at times, but usually were centered around important information that they needed to be presented to the whole class. If they didn't have the lectures people would have complained that they didn't get the information. I'm not sure I can come up with a better system. In any case, I wouldn't let a few boring mandatory lectures get in the way of coming here.

The Practice & Professionalism class was a positive experience for me. I would have been perfectly happy to have the class graded, but respect the fact that the administration listened to the 1L class and changed the policy. They didn't have to change the policy. From talks with the PP professors, they have made changes to the course based on feedback from last year. Hopefully the 1L class will have a better structured PP course with even more practical experiences. One professor told me that every 1L will get a chance to do a solo deposition in PP this year. My adjuncts for both PP and Legal Writing were excellent, dedicated and provided constructive feedback.

My education has never been negatively affected by the quality of the building, chairs or carpet. I did visit the school prior to enrolling. If the facilities were my factor for choosing a school, I suppose I would have chosen St. Thomas or Marquette. They both have new shiny buildings.

I didn't have any issues with the examsoft policies. In fact, I didn't hear about anyone having a problem until the post by Daniel. Hopefully all the 1Ls will read this thread and make sure to double check to make sure they have everything downloaded.

The student groups are active. I attend informative lunch presentations with respected local attorneys and judges a few times a week. A number of students are involved in a student group that brings together MPP, MBA and law students for group projects. I don't have the time to join all the groups and activities that I'm interested in joining.

I chose MN because I wanted to practice in WI or MN and it was the best school for the best price. I didn't want to live in Chicago. I couldn't be happier with my decision. For me, picking a school based on the student body and quality of professors are valid reasons. I haven't had a bad professor yet. The vast majority of the students I interact with are happy to be here. I'm one of the satisfied students, and I don't think I'm in the 1%.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
dairylander wrote:
I chose MN because I wanted to practice in WI or MN and it was the best school for the best price. I didn't want to live in Chicago. I couldn't be happier with my decision. For me, picking a school based on the student body and quality of professors are valid reasons. I haven't had a bad professor yet. The vast majority of the students I interact with are happy to be here. I'm one of the satisfied students, and I don't think I'm in the 1%.


Two points: (1) For anyone who is absolutely dead set on practicing in the state of MN and nowhere else, then dairylander is correct, UMN is probably the place to be. There's just such a huge disparity between UMN and the next best schools in the region, it totally dominates the Twin Cities market.

(2) I don't think that the percentage of students who are happy at UMN is 1%. Sometimes it feels like only 1%, but it's substantially greater than that. To get a better sense of it, though, I would be willing to bet that a pretty clear majority regret their decision to come here. Probably less than 99%, but I'd say that the percentage of students who regret their decision to come here is way above 50%.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:47 pm
Posts: 2158
dairylander wrote:
I'm a MN 2L. I'm posting here because I had a different experience than some of the other posters.

The 1L lectures were boring at times, but usually were centered around important information that they needed to be presented to the whole class. If they didn't have the lectures people would have complained that they didn't get the information. I'm not sure I can come up with a better system. In any case, I wouldn't let a few boring mandatory lectures get in the way of coming here.

The Practice & Professionalism class was a positive experience for me. I would have been perfectly happy to have the class graded, but respect the fact that the administration listened to the 1L class and changed the policy. They didn't have to change the policy. From talks with the PP professors, they have made changes to the course based on feedback from last year. Hopefully the 1L class will have a better structured PP course with even more practical experiences. One professor told me that every 1L will get a chance to do a solo deposition in PP this year. My adjuncts for both PP and Legal Writing were excellent, dedicated and provided constructive feedback.

My education has never been negatively affected by the quality of the building, chairs or carpet. I did visit the school prior to enrolling. If the facilities were my factor for choosing a school, I suppose I would have chosen St. Thomas or Marquette. They both have new shiny buildings.

I didn't have any issues with the examsoft policies. In fact, I didn't hear about anyone having a problem until the post by Daniel. Hopefully all the 1Ls will read this thread and make sure to double check to make sure they have everything downloaded.

The student groups are active. I attend informative lunch presentations with respected local attorneys and judges a few times a week. A number of students are involved in a student group that brings together MPP, MBA and law students for group projects. I don't have the time to join all the groups and activities that I'm interested in joining.

I chose MN because I wanted to practice in WI or MN and it was the best school for the best price. I didn't want to live in Chicago. I couldn't be happier with my decision. For me, picking a school based on the student body and quality of professors are valid reasons. I haven't had a bad professor yet. The vast majority of the students I interact with are happy to be here. I'm one of the satisfied students, and I don't think I'm in the 1%.


Hey, someone who doesn't just launch a series of ad hominem attacks against Daniel3.14! This is correct response to this thread if you're a UMN student.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:38 pm
Posts: 1787
My mom is from Minnesota.

I just learned more about my upbringing than I ever got from genealogy projects and talking to family.

Keep fighting the good fight, danielpi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 36
I just want to say that I'm with Daniel on this. It's important to share honest opinions with prospective students, even if they're not always what they want to hear. And he's not claiming his are the only useful perspectives, just that they might be helpful to know before accepting UMN. It seems like any defensiveness toward posters stems from their insults, not that their experiences were different from his. And I can completely understand his frustration - Minnesotans are uniquely terrible at dealing with confrontations. I lived there ten years and was continually frustrated by the "don't rock the boat" mentality.

Rock on, Daniel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:32 pm
Posts: 632
daniel3.14 wrote:
I would be willing to bet that a pretty clear majority regret their decision to come here. Probably less than 99%, but I'd say that the percentage of students who regret their decision to come here is way above 50%.


I will take any action you're willing to lay on that bet, if you promise to drop out, admit how wrong and stupid you were, and then finally stfu when you lose.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
I will take any action you're willing to lay on that bet, if you promise to drop out, admit how wrong and stupid you were, and then finally stfu when you lose.


Firstly, you'd lose that bet.

Secondly, you want me to "admit how wrong and stupid" I've been?! What in your addled mind do you think there even is to be "wrong and stupid" about? Wrong and stupid about the bare electrical wire dangling from that hole in the ceiling? Wrong and stupid about the chains and stains? Wrong and stupid about the P&P fiasco? Wrong and stupid about having incompetent LW and PP adjuncts? Wrong and stupid about the crappy career prospects that 90% of graduates face? Or wrong and stupid about not "loving" all of the above?

And thirdly, while I have tried to at least keep in mind that the purpose of starting this thread was for the benefit of 0Ls, at this point I think I should just directly address the troupe of UMN devotees, who seem to cruise by fairly regularly now to lash out at me and unleash their troglodytic grunts of school pride. So, UMN defenders, this post is for you: I really don't mind the criticism, but if you plan on "defending" this dump of a school, some effort to focus those comments might prove perspicuous. To that end, I would suggest you to run through the following list of issues to clarify precisely what your problem is, prior to posting here:

1) Is the fact that I don't love UMN what bothers you? Are you upset that someone didn't enjoy the UMN Law experience? Do you feel that everyone who goes to UMN Law has some sort of moral obligation to enjoy that experience?

2) Do you think that I secretly love UMN? Do you think I've been dishonest about my opinion of UMN? Do you believe that I actually enjoyed my UMN Law experience, and I am lying about it on this forum? If so, why do you think I would lie about that?

3) Do you feel that the photos and video that I've posted have been edited or tampered with in any way? Do you think that they are pictures of some other school? More generally, do you deny the factual bases for my opinions? Do you think I invented the P&P disaster? Are my allegations of there being a mandatory non-upgradable laptop purchase (with no opt out) slanderous lies?

Now, if you answered "yes" to any of the above, I would be very interested to hear why.

Else if you answered "no" to all of the above, then I would posit that the only reason you've got left is that I had the audacity to express my honest opinion. So take a step back, breathe deeply, and ask yourself whether this is really something you want to be criticizing. Is the point that you're trying to make that anyone who doesn't like UMN should just suffer in silence? I mean, are you really taking the position that people shouldn't express negative opinions about their law schools, even when those opinions are honestly held, good faith opinions, based on scrupulously detailed facts? Really? I mean, really? Ask yourself if that is really a position you want to take.

Because, frankly, I just can't understand what motivates this small but vociferous band of UMN loyalists, who've apparently decided to coordinate some sort of lame attempt at "counter speech." I mean, are you really going to the trouble of making new accounts, logging on here, just to post wild and strange personal insults (e.g. bizarrely accusing me of wearing a white suit on the first day of school -- which I didn't do) against someone who's had a pretty legitimately crumby law school experience at UMN, which is representative of a large number of students?

Specifically, I want to know why on earth do you care so much? I can tell you why I care. I care, because even with a very generous financial aid package, I'll still be leaving this place with a substantial debt, I'll have wasted three years of my life here, the school is incompetently run, I've had a horrible experience (notwithstanding excellent professors and generally pleasant colleagues) and I feel like I was screwed over by this dump of a school. On this forum, there are other people who are considering making the same investment of time, effort, and money, who risk having the same regrets that I have. That's why I've been posting here. Seems pretty reasonable, right? So why are you posting here? I mean, is it some sort of moronic herd instinct to bash the one who sticks out from the flock? Is it a lynch-mob mentality that you gotta go "git" the guy who's acting uppity? Gotta haze the guy who doesn't want to salute the flag? Or whatever -- pick your metaphor (I like villagers with pitchforks and torches storming the castle, personally).

It just blows my mind that any sane person who isn't currently a 0L genuinely undecided about where to attend law school even cares what gets said on this forum. I mean, it is outright creepy that this cadre of UMN partisans feel so moved to defend their friggin' law school. I mean, seriously? Why? I cannot fathom what would compel any sane person to give a crap. And anyone who feels some sort of primal instinct to bash me personally for having the temerity to air UMN's dirty laundry should feel like a creep. A creep, I say. You're succumbing to the worst, most base instincts when you do that. Truly, there are any number of entirely valid reactions that a UMN student might have to what I've posted here: agreement, indifference, ambivalence, disagreement. What is not a valid response is to feel that someone must be "punished" for having "betrayed" UMN, as if I ever "owed" something to this vile institution, which has put me into debt and will have wasted three years of my life. What is not a valid response is the despicable reactions that have been on display by the panoply "UMN apologists" that have suddenly popped up on this forum over the past couple of weeks. If you feel such a reaction bubbling up, then you need to take a hard look in the mirror, because you just might be an abysmal failure of a human being.

Put it this way: I am a Minnesotan. If someone says Minnesota is a horrible place to live, because it's so cold during the winter, then I might reasonably agree or disagree with that person. However, I would feel no compulsion to bash the person, nor to attack them. Similarly, I am an American. I'm happy to be an American. But if someone criticizes the USA, then I feel no particular reason to attack that person, to undermine their credibility, to gossip about them behind their back, nor to harass them. Indeed, even if someone were to say that overall the USA is a horrible country, I can pretty much guarantee that I wouldn't care. Likewise, my undergraduate school was NYU. I was very happy with my NYU experience. And if someone were to criticize NYU, then I would feel no compulsion whatsoever to personally malign its critic. Indeed, particularly if the critic bases his opinions on facts, and he is criticizing in good faith, and expressing his honest opinions, I have no quibble with him. Why? Because I'm not a freaking psychopath. And you see, that's the problem with this handful of people who have taken to "responding" to my posts here lately. They're freaking psychopaths. They are disturbed, emotionally-stunted people, who have the all the maturity of the characters in Lord of the Flies.

So I had a bad experience at UMN Law. A horrible experience. Worst experience of my life. So what? Seriously, if you're not a 0L looking for information about which law school attend, then why do you care? So I had the temerity to express that view. So what? Seriously, what is the problem here? Is the reason you're sensitive about it because you've tried so hard to ignore these serious deficiencies in the school, and I've so inconveniently pointed them out? Seriously? Do you not realize that this is craaazy? I honestly cannot think of a single sane reason why anyone would be posting the personal attacks against me here. Not a one.

And what's creepier and crazier still is to hide behind anonymous accounts telling me to "stfu," and "admit how wrong and stupid" I am, telling me that I should "drop out" (why don't you drop out yourself incidentally), sending threatening PMs to me, attempting to organize a mob to "undermine" me, telling my profs about this thread (not that they even care), crank calling my phone, whispering about me in some dusty little corner or chat room or wherever you grubby little carbuncles congregate, and coming to my house and ringing my buzzer at 3AM. Well, I'm sick of it!

You're already a creep if you think that a mounting student loan debt and three years of my life wasted don't entitle me to gripe about the school -- much less on a forum created for people in law school to share their experience with prospective law students. But you're a creep a dozen times over if you've participated in any of the aforementioned shenanigans. I'm willing to respect a person's anonymity under pretty much any circumstances that a person might want anonymity, but if you've decided you're going to be "against" me because of what I've posted on a freaking law school forum (let me reiterate how stupid I think this impulse is in the first place), then at least have the guts to be up front about it. I'm not really sure what to make of the claims of "water cooler talk" about me and this thread, and I remain skeptical whether I have acquired the supposed "notoriety" that a couple users here have claimed. But I think it's petty and trite and utterly contemptible if it is the case.

I walk into that ugly ass building every day. If you want to tell me that it's not ugly, then have the guts to tell me to my face. Stop hiding behind your little computer screens and twittering about the guy who's had the audacity to take pictures of the school and actually post them so that prospective law students can actually see what the school looks like. Stop cyberstalking me. And stop gossipping like a klatsch of catty frumps. It's pathetic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:03 pm
Posts: 38
daniel3.14 wrote:

1) Is the fact that I don't love UMN what bothers you? Are you upset that someone didn't enjoy the UMN Law experience? Do you feel that everyone who goes to UMN Law has some sort of moral obligation to enjoy that experience?

Specifically, I want to know why on earth do you care so much?

It just blows my mind that any sane person who isn't currently a 0L genuinely undecided about where to attend law school even cares what gets said on this forum. I mean, it is outright creepy that this cadre of UMN partisans feel so moved to defend their friggin' law school. I mean, seriously? Why? I cannot fathom what would compel any sane person to give a crap. And anyone who feels some sort of primal instinct to bash me personally for having the temerity to air UMN's dirty laundry should feel like a creep. A creep, I say. You're succumbing to the worst, most base instincts when you do that. Truly, there are any number of entirely valid reactions that a UMN student might have to what I've posted here: agreement, indifference, ambivalence, disagreement. What is not a valid response is to feel that someone must be "punished" for having "betrayed" UMN, as if I ever "owed" something to this vile institution, which has put me into debt and will have wasted three years of my life. What is not a valid response is the despicable reactions that have been on display by the panoply "UMN apologists" that have suddenly popped up on this forum over the past couple of weeks. If you feel such a reaction bubbling up, then you need to take a hard look in the mirror, because you just might be an abysmal failure of a human being.

Put it this way: I am a Minnesotan. If someone says Minnesota is a horrible place to live, because it's so cold during the winter, then I might reasonably agree or disagree with that person. However, I would feel no compulsion to bash the person, nor to attack them. Similarly, I am an American. I'm happy to be an American. But if someone criticizes the USA, then I feel no particular reason to attack that person, to undermine their credibility, to gossip about them behind their back, nor to harass them. Indeed, even if someone were to say that overall the USA is a horrible country, I can pretty much guarantee that I wouldn't care. Likewise, my undergraduate school was NYU. I was very happy with my NYU experience. And if someone were to criticize NYU, then I would feel no compulsion whatsoever to personally malign its critic. Indeed, particularly if the critic bases his opinions on facts, and he is criticizing in good faith, and expressing his honest opinions, I have no quibble with him. Why? Because I'm not a freaking psychopath. And you see, that's the problem with this handful of people who have taken to "responding" to my posts here lately. They're freaking psychopaths. They are disturbed, emotionally-stunted people, who have the all the maturity of the characters in Lord of the Flies.


I think that the first reason you posited is likely the most common, even if the detractors wouldn't admit it since it smacks of hilarious insecurity.

Why people care so much is precisely because of the "Lord of the Flies" mentality you allude to shortly thereafter. Apparently these learned scholars failed to either read or gather the message imparted by a novel most of the college-educated would have read and understood by high school, if not junior high.

These UMN-defenders remind me of those "patriotic" Americans who feel any slight against their country, no matter how valid, is inappropriate and demands their time and energy to refute. Clearly, these purportedly "liberal" individuals would not have taken issue with Senator McCarthy's House (committee) Un-American Activities Commission.

From the nature of the attacks levied here one would think Vietnam never happened.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:00 am
Posts: 971
Hi all,

A 3L here, to hop in the mix. Congrats to the newly admitted students and best of luck to everyone that's pending! Get your apps in ASAP if you haven't. Remember - you're something like 80% less likely to be admitted if you apply in Feb than if you apply in Nov.

I'd be happy to answer questions as well, and I'm more than happy to give candid answers.

Best,

--Josh


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:38 pm
Posts: 388
Am I a bad Minnesotan for reflexively defending the region when anyone brings up how cold it gets? To be honest, the worst part of Minnesota is that passive aggressive Minnesota Nice that so many people here have, not the below zero chill.

That, and did someone just bring up Vietnam, McCarthy, and Lord of the Flies in reference to generally baseless forum board attacks coming from all sides on TLS?!? However, I think when you give yourself over to a particular social group and enjoy being a part of it you are going to have some esprit de corp. I know that if I heard someone just randomly bashing my UG institution I would probably rise to defend it. That being said, I may not have quite gone about it the same way as some of the people here have. I may have been worse.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 10
I just received my admit letter along with a substantial scholarship offer. This is exactly the information I need, thank you Daniel. I am far from making a decision where to attend, but this thread has been invaluable.

What is the political culture in the law school and in Minneapolis?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
Bwana wrote:
I just received my admit letter along with a substantial scholarship offer. This is exactly the information I need, thank you Daniel. I am far from making a decision where to attend, but this thread has been invaluable.

What is the political culture in the law school and in Minneapolis?


Thanks Bwana -- glad that you've found the info helpful.

Minneapolis is very blue. Some suburbs are very red.

Without doing a formal poll, I think UMN is like most law schools politically -- probably something like 60-40 or 70-30 split, liberals to conservatives. There is not much acrimony between people of differing political persuasions (we shall see whether that holds true during an election year). From my experience, I get along quite well with several of the conservative students (I'm a stalwart Rawlsian liberal myself). The atmosphere is pretty easy-going generally, and that extends to political discourse, too. There is a reasonable mix of liberal and conservative profs. Obviously, more liberal than conservative, but we have a few prominent conservatives as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1199
Bwana wrote:
What is the political culture in the law school and in Minneapolis?


I definitely feel like there is a strong conservative voice in the school. The Federalist Society puts on arguably the best events of the student groups, and they are always well attended. The business concentration seems very popular. (For what it's worth, I've also heard a surprising amount of sexist discourse from classmates.)

On the other side of the spectrum, there is a strong human rights activist voice at UMN (possibly because the school offers a human rights concentration). The Asylum Law Project, for example, is a very popular 1L organization -- close to half the 1Ls last year volunteered at immigration law offices with the group. Overall, I'd say the student body is fairly conservative, but there are some very active/vocal liberals who balance things out. I feel a little outnumbered as a moderate liberal, but I think some of that is just law students in general, not something unique to UMN.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:53 pm
Posts: 32
jayn3 wrote:
I feel a little outnumbered as a moderate liberal, but I think some of that is just law students in general, not something unique to UMN.


That's interesting; I've never felt outnumbered as a liberal at UMN, but that may be a function of my year (I'm a 3L). Even among the business-focused students, I think the assumption is that the majority of law students here are liberals. This is reflective of the legal field itself, even at the big law firms.

If anything, I always thought that the conservative elements at the school, like the Federalist Society club members, are a bit on the defensive about their political views. In my opinion, Federalist Society events are so attended because they usually co-sponsor ideological debates over the death penalty, etc. with the Law School Democrats. And they also put up the money to bring in speakers nationally, who will then argue with Professor Gross, et al. and lose on most of their substantive points. (Who doesn't like to see their favorite profs go toe-to-toe with national speakers in a well moderated debate?) I could be wrong, but I think that the Federalist Society is the only school club with the budget to bring in national speakers multiple times a semester.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
jayn3 wrote:
Bwana wrote:
What is the political culture in the law school and in Minneapolis?


Overall, I'd say the student body is fairly conservative, but there are some very active/vocal liberals who balance things out. I feel a little outnumbered as a moderate liberal, but I think some of that is just law students in general, not something unique to UMN.


Ah, the voice of the most deluded mind on TLS. Do they wear white suits on the first day of school, too? And what do you "interpret" that to mean, I wonder?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:24 am
Posts: 15
2L here. I would Agree With Daniel regarding the political persuasion: It's been my feeling (Ugh, I know, feelings) that most of the students are liberal. Maybe not outspoken, but more so liberal than conservative.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:00 am
Posts: 971
58103 wrote:
2L here. I would Agree With Daniel regarding the political persuasion: It's been my feeling (Ugh, I know, feelings) that most of the students are liberal. Maybe not outspoken, but more so liberal than conservative.


There's a very strong and outspoken libertarian group as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
Update: UMN Law continues to suck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm
Posts: 2373
daniel3.14 wrote:
Update: UMN Law continues to suck.

You should probably just get over it bro. This thread is just so full of fail. Bad mouthing your law school is self defeating. You are going to carry around a degree with their name on it forever. By dissuading qualified candidates from going there you are hurting (however marginally) your future reputation. Plus it just looks beta. We could all make similar threads about our law schools. You haven't said anything here that doesn't go on at other law schools.

You fucked up and forgot to download a program. Now your life sucks. Take responsibility.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: University of Minnesota 2L Taking Questions...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 71
shoeshine wrote:
daniel3.14 wrote:
Update: UMN Law continues to suck.

You should probably just get over it bro. This thread is just so full of fail. Bad mouthing your law school is self defeating. You are going to carry around a degree with their name on it forever. By dissuading qualified candidates from going there you are hurting (however marginally) your future reputation. Plus it just looks beta. We could all make similar threads about our law schools. You haven't said anything here that doesn't go on at other law schools.

You fucked up and forgot to download a program. Now your life sucks. Take responsibility.


:roll: Wow. :roll: "So full of fail?" "Beta?" Wow. How obnoxious is that? I really hate internet slang. Well, I think it is your reply, which possesses a great plethora of "fail," sir. Indeed, it is so "beta" that it's "gamma."

1) I didn't "fuck up" at all. I downloaded the stupid program. Was that not clear? Downloaded it. I didn't do anything they didn't tell me to do, except possibly check my junk mail filter to see whether the morons in tech services emailed me that their imbecilic system broke. Learn how to read, "bro." Take responsibility? Seriously? How about you not lecture me. How about that?

2) I've listed about a million reasons why UMN sucks so much more than other schools. These reasons are unique to UMN. What are you talking about with your, "You haven't said anything here that doesn't go on at other law schools"? Horse shit. Other law schools don't force you to buy bottom-of-the-barrel laptops at a huge mark up. Other law schools don't suddenly switch the grading policy for a required 1L course mid-semester because they screwed up so badly in designing the curriculum. Other law schools don't have bare electrical wires dangling from cement holes in the ceiling. Other law schools don't look like Soviet gulags. Other law schools don't pay their LW adjuncts so little that they guarantee that their staff is scraped from the absolute bottom of the Minneapolis legal market. Other law schools' Deans don't disappear for an entire semester to spawn horrible little babies, while simultaneously denying pregnant students exam variances for their pregnancies. Other law schools ostensibly in T1 don't have trouble competing in their region with other schools at the bottom of T2. So far as I can tell, UMN Law is uniquely the biggest scam in all of academia.

3) My future is looking peachy--thank you very much. My career plans do not involve the practicing law. In fact, I will most certainly not be taking the bar. And I will assuredly be considerably better off than most of my unfortunate classmates. Call it luck, I guess. So, despite this school's best attempts to "fuck up" my future, I'll be just fine. Better than fine, in fact. But just because things turned out okay for me in the end doesn't mean the school doesn't suck anymore. It still sucks. Indeed, my postings here have had rather little to do with sour grapes; and more to do with giving an honest assessment of the utter rathole of a law school I made the mistake of attending. I guess that's the retarded assumption that you and UMN-3L and some others just can't get through your heads. The point isn't how it affected me personally, but the fact that this is, in fact, an extremely bad school, which is grossly overrated.

4) Insofar as your comment that "Bad mouthing your law school is self defeating," I find your sentiment grotesque in the extreme. As I've said before, it's don't-rock-the-boat "people" like you, who allow garbage schools like UMN to get away with being as awful as they are. And the thought that people should pretend that their schools are better than they are for their own self-interest, duping others into attending their crap hole institutions is really quite abominable. I really blame people like you for my getting sucked into a rathole like UMN in the first place. If more people were honest about the negative aspects of their schools, there wouldn't be nearly so many unhappy law students, schools would be more accountable for the quality of their programs, and the world would be a better place. It's people like you who let crap law schools like UMN continue to be the traps that they are.

I mean, seriously. "Get over it, bro"? Seriously? Get over what, bro? The crappiness of UMN? I'm supposed to "get over" that I've gone tens of thousands of dollars into debt to get a nearly worthless law degree from a miserable TTT? Bro?

How about instead: If you don't like hearing about it, then don't freaking read it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 204 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: banjo, Tweed and 14 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  
Login     TLS home     TLS forums     TLS wiki     Terms of Service     Privacy Policy     Copyright Policy     Contact     powered by phpBB