Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
WhatWouldHolmesDo?
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby WhatWouldHolmesDo? » Mon May 30, 2011 9:17 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
WhatWouldHolmesDo? wrote:
The short answer is really uncommon, but quite damaging.

Though I believe the official curve recommends that the bottom 10% of the class receives LPs, it seems that professors are actually discouraged from giving them. How the administration views LPs is a bit hidden from us, but most professors understand them to be discretionary. When asked, every professor I had this year basically said something along the lines of "to get an LP, you have to earn it." In other words, unless you really blow it (i.e. not study, not complete the test, never go to class), you will pass. That seems to be most professors' approach, though there may be a few outliers who more strictly conform to the curve or believe in giving LPs on principle. One of my professors said he "didn't like" to give them. Others just said not to worry about it. What that translates to is probably 1-2 LPs handed out in most large classes...they'd be even more rare in seminars.

One of the reasons professors are so reluctant to dole out LPs - and this gets to the second part of your question - is because they really do screw you over. I haven't gone through EIP (the early interview program in August) but what I've picked up from others makes it sound like an LP is a really serious blot on your resume that is difficult to overcome. My sense is that it will likely kill your chances at a top-tier firm and generally make the job search significantly tougher. It's a red flag, plain and simple. That said, as long as you have some other stuff going for you or an otherwise decent transcript, you'd almost certainly still be able to get a BigLaw job. And if your transcript is otherwise filled with H's, it would do significantly less harm. All of that assumes one LP. If someone had multiple LPs. I'd imagine it would be basically impossible to get a BigLaw job unless you're a fantastic interview or are otherwise extremely impressive.

But yeah, as noted above, it's really not a serious concern, even for classes you might struggle in. It's scary first semester when you haven't taken any law school exams yet, but then you realize it's not much to worry about it.


I hate to say it, but this does make all of those Stanford trolls seem more legitimate.



In light of the Stanford trolls comment, I feel like it's worth coloring in HLS's grading culture a little more. While it's true that the specter of the LP is overblown, I think the internal acceptability/desirability of a P as opposed to an H is also overblown. Here's what I think happens. Most Harvard 0Ls are thrilled just to "be there." You study hard for the LSAT, you do quite well, you write a personal statement, gather LORs, go through the JR1....by the time you get in, you feel like the hard part is over and you're well on your way to professional success. The various tiers that are ever-present in your mind throughout your cycle are those that separate law schools, and when you get into Harvard, you've made it into the top. Correspondingly, while you are eager to learn a lot, you are not necessarily too concerned about what your transcript will look like. You figure that you'll get a lot of Ps, some Hs, and who really cares, because you're at Harvard, right? Objectively, there's a lot of truth to that. Just by virtue of being at HLS (or another top law school), you have a significant head-start on the competition.

That was my mindset at least. But I think what happens to many similarly-minded people is that the things that got us here in the first place (drive, ambition, a desire to be "at the top") kick in quite quickly. By the time finals roll around, you want those H's and you are willing to work hard to get them. You want to have your hard work validated; you want to prove yourself to professors that you like and admire.

Another contributing factor relates to what I described above re: how 0Ls view selectivity and being at the top of their field. At that stage in the game, it's about what schools you get into and where you enroll. Once you're actually in law school though you are introduced to all these other self-sorting prestige mechanisms. Are you on Law Review? Are you clerking? Where will you clerk? State court? Federal District court? Circuit court? What firm are you at? What government job did you score?

This is not to say Harvard is a cut-throat place - I don't find it to be at all. But it is a place where there is a lot of ambition and achievement in the air, and the natural response for many is to want to keep chasing that prestige.

None of this is necessarily a bad thing. Personally, I think the collective desire to do well academically will probably makes students better lawyers and gives HLS the kind of academic electricity, which makes it such a great place to study law. My point is that, in some sense, the 0L fear of the LP is replaced by the 1L fear of the P. That is not to equate what the two grades mean at all; just to illustrate the way perceptions of the grading system change once you hit HLS.

A qualifier: I am speaking for myself here as well as a group of friends who I know relate in a similar way. There are many ways to approach grades and much is probably determined by how well you do first semester, which sets expectations for the rest of your time here. I know quite a few HLS students who are cruising through law school, for whatever reason. They're not affected by the phenomenon I've described above or they make a calculated decision to enjoy their social life during law school more and rest on their HLS credentials when they get out. Or maybe you're just fine working at any BigLaw firm and know you can get there by putting in the minimal effort to pass your classes with the occasional H. (A few years ago, you could cruise and go work at a V10). I am simply describing what I think happens to many 1Ls and what I perceive as characterizing the grading culture in general. Very curious to hear what other rising 2Ls have to say...

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon May 30, 2011 10:09 pm

WhatWouldHolmesDo? wrote:I do have a different understanding of Dean's Scholars (DSes). My impression is that professors are, if not required (which I think they might be), encouraged to hand out several to the best tests in the class. I could imagine a situation like a small seminar where no one gets a DS, but in lecture classes I think it is pretty much guaranteed that at least one will be handed out with the professor having discretion to hand out more as he sees fit. My impression is that 2-4 are handed out in each class.


I actually agree with your comment about DSes. I've gotten the impression as well that professors are much more likely to hand out DSes than LPs.

WhatWouldHolmesDo? wrote:A qualifier: I am speaking for myself here as well as a group of friends who I know relate in a similar way. There are many ways to approach grades and much is probably determined by how well you do first semester, which sets expectations for the rest of your time here. I know quite a few HLS students who are cruising through law school, for whatever reason. They're not affected by the phenomenon I've described above or they make a calculated decision to enjoy their social life during law school more and rest on their HLS credentials when they get out. Or maybe you're just fine working at any BigLaw firm and know you can get there by putting in the minimal effort to pass your classes with the occasional H. (A few years ago, you could cruise and go work at a V10). I am simply describing what I think happens to many 1Ls and what I perceive as characterizing the grading culture in general. Very curious to hear what other rising 2Ls have to say...


I've gotten the exact feeling (not personally) in the sense that I think a good chunk of 1Ls experience what you typed, and then there are those who are "shooting for P" and cruising by. Either is fine I'm sure, depends on their goals. I know I have very specific goals so I tailor everything to match that...but yeah, you do still want those Hs, especially after you hear that 3 Hs out of your 10 1L classes during the first year = median (roughly speaking)! :P

fdr123
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby fdr123 » Mon May 30, 2011 10:14 pm

what are the best commercial outlines for 1l? and why?

WhatWouldHolmesDo?
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby WhatWouldHolmesDo? » Mon May 30, 2011 10:25 pm

fdr123 wrote:what are the best commercial outlines for 1l? and why?


I am not a huge commercial outline person, so others might have more insightful answers. In general, I find the E&E series (which I used for civ-pro and torts) quite helpful. Its overviews of topics are very basic, but very clear. The "examples and explanations" part is where Glannon really earns his money. It's very helpful to practice on mini issue-spotter type questions with the accompanying detailed explanations. I used Emanuel for Crim, but didn't find it that helpful. I bought Gilbert's for Torts and Property, which is pretty comprehensive in breadth, but very superficial and kind of difficult to navigate, so in the end not that helpful either. They were more psychological comforts to me than anything else.

My general approach to which outline to buy was to skim a bunch at the law school bookstore and figure out which best corresponded to the way my professor taught the class. Some outlines are keyed to specific textbooks, so that's obviously going to be more helpful than one that isn't.

delusional
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby delusional » Mon May 30, 2011 10:39 pm

WhatWouldHolmesDo? wrote:There are many ways to approach grades and much is probably determined by how well you do first semester, which sets expectations for the rest of your time here. I know quite a few HLS students who are cruising through law school, for whatever reason. They're not affected by the phenomenon I've described above or they make a calculated decision to enjoy their social life during law school more and rest on their HLS credentials when they get out.

God, I hope you're right.

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gatorgirl4life
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby gatorgirl4life » Mon May 30, 2011 10:45 pm

this may be a bit too specific, but can anyone speak to how difficult (or hopefully easy?) it is to find work in south florida from HLS and what kind of grades you need for firms like greenberg traurig, carlton fields, etc? thanks for taking questions! =)

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Tanicius
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby Tanicius » Mon May 30, 2011 11:10 pm

gatorgirl4life wrote:this may be a bit too specific, but can anyone speak to how difficult (or hopefully easy?) it is to find work in south florida from HLS and what kind of grades you need for firms like greenberg traurig, carlton fields, etc? thanks for taking questions! =)



Well, I have to imagine you have as good as if not better a shot as you would at any law school, maybe excepting UF.

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Moxie
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby Moxie » Tue May 31, 2011 8:49 am

delusional wrote:
WhatWouldHolmesDo? wrote:There are many ways to approach grades and much is probably determined by how well you do first semester, which sets expectations for the rest of your time here. I know quite a few HLS students who are cruising through law school, for whatever reason. They're not affected by the phenomenon I've described above or they make a calculated decision to enjoy their social life during law school more and rest on their HLS credentials when they get out.

God, I hope you're right.


While I definitely notice this phenomenon in some of my HLS classmates, sometimes it's difficult to tell between non-chalant attitudes and genuine coasting. Some of my best friends seemed like they put social life ahead of all else during 1L, and yet their condensed studying got them amazing first semester grades.

Just saying that everyone who gets into a top-law-school is talented and ambitious, and many people work harder than it appears.

tuxedosquare
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby tuxedosquare » Tue May 31, 2011 6:48 pm

hi, thanks for taking questions guys! You guys have mentioned the social life in HLS a bit in passing. Can you speak more to that i.e. how friendly (or not) you've found people to be, what kind of social events go on? Is it clique-ish, especially within sections?

Also, WWHD, you mentioned that you just finished write-on competition. How'd that go?

Doublechecks and moxie, you're both working in law firms this summer right? Do you mind sharing how you obtained those jobs and how you're liking it so far?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions!

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue May 31, 2011 9:35 pm

tuxedosquare wrote:hi, thanks for taking questions guys! You guys have mentioned the social life in HLS a bit in passing. Can you speak more to that i.e. how friendly (or not) you've found people to be, what kind of social events go on? Is it clique-ish, especially within sections?

Also, WWHD, you mentioned that you just finished write-on competition. How'd that go?

Doublechecks and moxie, you're both working in law firms this summer right? Do you mind sharing how you obtained those jobs and how you're liking it so far?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions!


everyone in the class is really nice, though the sections do get clique-ish (you dont have that many inter-section events during 1L year that the school hosts), and then cliques form within sections as well. there are those that are very serious, and those who are the opposite, and everything in between -- so you'll find those you gravitate toward. generally everyone is nice, however.

now boston as a whole...i cant say the same. while not downright horrid, compared to TX lol, people up north tend to be a bit more...mm, "brusque" and "efficient"...to put it lightly lol. but ive enjoyed my time in the NE so far overall.

and as far as law firms go, i always planned on returning to TX from the get-go. i only targeted TX firms, and mass mailed all the houston ones in the NALP directory around Dec. 1 (when you're finally allowed to). got callbacks before (and over) winter break while home, and did those interviews. you have to hustle a bit, but i mean, outside of writing cover letters and updating my resume (and eventually preparing for those 4 hr interviews lol), not that much more work (though the timing isnt great as it gets close to finals).

however, TX is sort of a different story from NYC or DC. while 1L biglaw firm jobs certainly exist there (i have a number of friends in 1L firm jobs in both cities this summer), they arent as plentiful as they are in TX (though most applicants will have TX ties).

WhatWouldHolmesDo?
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby WhatWouldHolmesDo? » Tue May 31, 2011 10:22 pm

tuxedosquare wrote:hi, thanks for taking questions guys! You guys have mentioned the social life in HLS a bit in passing. Can you speak more to that i.e. how friendly (or not) you've found people to be, what kind of social events go on? Is it clique-ish, especially within sections?

Also, WWHD, you mentioned that you just finished write-on competition. How'd that go?

Doublechecks and moxie, you're both working in law firms this summer right? Do you mind sharing how you obtained those jobs and how you're liking it so far?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions!


I second most of that - cliques do form within sections, but people are generally really nice. That's one of the more surprising things you realize when you get here - the camaradarie within section is great. I'm a little more optimistic as to the number of opportunities for inter-section mingling than DoubleChecks. HL Central hosts a lot of school-wide events (most notably the weekly "bar review" event at a local bar) and there are also several exclusively 1L events throughout the year (like 1L formal). Each section has a social committee (I think - at least mine did) with a sizable budget with which to organize section events etc. You can take advantage of it to whatever degree you chose, but it is a fairly social environment. I wouldn't say HLS on the whole "works hard, plays hard," but we do play moderately.

As for the write-on competition, it was pretty brutal. You have just spent the last 4 weeks or so immersed in studying for and taking finals, and then you're asked to run another marathon with the odds against you. It takes a lot out of you. I actually found it more grueling than finals, as I know did many others. I pretty much spent every waking hour working, with short breaks every few hours, and got very little sleep. Not everyone does that - some manage a 9-5 schedule supposedly - but given that a lot of people are working that hard, you feel pressure to do so yourself. A lot of the battle is psychological - you have to motivate yourself to work hard for something that is not required, with the knowledge that you will probably not make it. And the competition is just hard; it takes a lot of critical thinking, efficiency, and endurance.

I'm telling myself that regardless of whether I make it or not, I'm happy I wrote the competition. That's true in the sense that I am happy I gave myself a shot and view finishing the competition at all as something of an accomplishment. But it will definitely be disappointing if I don't make it after putting so much work into it.

tuxedosquare
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby tuxedosquare » Tue May 31, 2011 11:12 pm

thanks for the quick responses! this all makes me really excited to start at harvard this fall! and good luck, wwhd! hope you make it onto law review!

so i have another question - i'm looking for apartments with two friends (one of whom will be a grad student at Harvard too). right now we're having a lot of trouble finding an apartment for august 1st in the harvard sq/porter sq area. do most people live in this area? i was wondering if we should give in a try and find something in central sq (i've noticed a few places) or suck it up and figure out where to stay during orientation and move in in sept? any advice you can give me would be great!

WhatWouldHolmesDo?
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby WhatWouldHolmesDo? » Tue May 31, 2011 11:28 pm

I think most people do live in the Harvard/Porter area. There is definitely a handful that live in Central and it's not that bad. Campus is still walkable (though it'll take around 20-30 minutes) and if you live close to the T, the harvard sq. stop is a 5 minute walk from the law school. I wouldn't do it, because I like the convenience of being a short walk from campus, but that is about personal preferences.

Honestly, I don't think you need give up on your search for an August 1st or 15th start date. There are a lot of apartments in this area and a lot of brokers. Don't limit yourself to craigslist if that's what you're doing. If you want to live in this area, just call brokers and keep at it. I'm sure something will come up. I found my place in late june of last year for an August 1st start date.

yongo
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby yongo » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:37 am

Hey, am I going to learn much more in a lecture? And how much do professors teach in seminars?--do the students usually bring enough stuff to make it extremely worthwhile, i.e. soak up as much knowledge as you would in a lecture?

Thanks! =)

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Moxie
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby Moxie » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:08 am

tuxedosquare wrote:hi, thanks for taking questions guys! You guys have mentioned the social life in HLS a bit in passing. Can you speak more to that i.e. how friendly (or not) you've found people to be, what kind of social events go on? Is it clique-ish, especially within sections?

Also, WWHD, you mentioned that you just finished write-on competition. How'd that go?

Doublechecks and moxie, you're both working in law firms this summer right? Do you mind sharing how you obtained those jobs and how you're liking it so far?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions!


Well I'm from the Northeast (unlike DoubleChecks), and I will second that people around here are "efficient". But people at the law school and in the Cambridge community are very friendly, and I've never had issues with any of my classmates. You hang out with the people you see most often (classes, section, extracurricular activities), so naturally there is some clique-iness but it's very easy to meet new people if you're willing to put yourself out there.

Ugh, write-on was not fun, thank god it's over. It will be worth it if we get on, but I seriously doubted I was going to make it through.

I talked my Career Services in late November, had them help me with my bid strategy (and cover letter/resume), and I sent out my materials to every Vault 100 firm in NY, as well as all diversity fellowships for 1L SAs. I also sent out mailings to as many firms I knew in Boston, but only in New York did I get replies.

Out of about 100 applications, I got roughly fifteen interview requests, and interviewed seven times. I got a few offers at V50 firms, and decided to take one for this summer (non-Diversity fellowships, but I'm sure being a URM helped).

carne.asada
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby carne.asada » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:41 am

thanks for taking questions!

What, if anything, do you wish you had known about Harvard before you made the decision to go? Would you still make the same decision again, given the choice?

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Moxie
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby Moxie » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:45 am

carne.asada wrote:thanks for taking questions!

What, if anything, do you wish you had known about Harvard before you made the decision to go? Would you still make the same decision again, given the choice?


Nothing really comes to mind that I wish I had known before. Obviously getting into HLS isn't the end, it's a means to build a successful career, but I've been fortunate to meet amazing classmates and get a great 1L job so I have almost no complaints.

Since I wanted HYS, and only got into HLS, I would make the same decision. I was fortunate enough to get some need-based grants, and HLS wasn't significantly more expensive than CLS (my other top choice). While I think my decision would've been harder if I had gotten a full-ride at a T10, I still think I would've ended up here, and the Harvard name is a huge boost on my resume.

lawschoolconflicted
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby lawschoolconflicted » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:16 pm

Thanks for taking questions! Could you talk about the gym at Harvard and whether students find time to work out (I know this is important for me). Also, is it shared with the undergrad, is it crowded, are there any cool classes offered, is it included in tuition? Thanks again!

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SubwaySandwich
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby SubwaySandwich » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:37 pm

Is there a Subway (sandwiches) nearby? :)

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haus
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby haus » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:57 pm

SubwaySandwich wrote:Is there a Subway (sandwiches) nearby? :)


Yes.

In addition to the Subway the area has many restaurants to choose from.

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adameus
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby adameus » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:30 pm

lawschoolconflicted wrote:Thanks for taking questions! Could you talk about the gym at Harvard and whether students find time to work out (I know this is important for me). Also, is it shared with the undergrad, is it crowded, are there any cool classes offered, is it included in tuition? Thanks again!


There is a gym right on the law school campus (Hemenway Gym). It is however open to the whole school, so there are a good # of undergrads and other grad school students there. It can be somewhat crowded at times, but there are like 4 or 5 other gyms around campus, so I never found it unbearable.

Yes the gym is included in tuition. The classes are also included in tuition. Hemenway has a good selection of daily classes including spinning, yoga, step classes, zumba, etc. I've been to the spin classes a few times and there are always bikes open, however I've also found them kind of easy compared with spinning classes I've done elsewhere. The MAC gym also has a good selection of daily classes and is less than a 10 minute walk from the law school campus.

Here is a link to the Spring/summer schedule of classes at Hemenway. (note: this is reduced from the normal # of classes during the school year).
--LinkRemoved--
Last edited by adameus on Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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adameus
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby adameus » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:37 pm

gatorgirl4life wrote:this may be a bit too specific, but can anyone speak to how difficult (or hopefully easy?) it is to find work in south florida from HLS and what kind of grades you need for firms like greenberg traurig, carlton fields, etc? thanks for taking questions! =)


Assuming you have ties to South Florida, I'd think you have a very good chance of getting into a South Florida firm. If you are interested in getting a South Florida firm job for 1L summer, I'd follow DoubleCheeks lead and as soon as Dec. 1 rolls around, start sending your resume and CL to all the the South Florida firms you would be interested in summering at. Also, let them know if you are going to be in SF during the Christmas break. That way they can invite you to the office for an interview. I'd say if you do this you'll have a solid chance at getting a 1L summer job and assuming the economy stays or slightly improves when OCI rolls around you should be a lock for a 2L summer job.

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adameus
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby adameus » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:46 pm

tuxedosquare wrote:thanks for the quick responses! this all makes me really excited to start at harvard this fall! and good luck, wwhd! hope you make it onto law review!

so i have another question - i'm looking for apartments with two friends (one of whom will be a grad student at Harvard too). right now we're having a lot of trouble finding an apartment for august 1st in the harvard sq/porter sq area. do most people live in this area? i was wondering if we should give in a try and find something in central sq (i've noticed a few places) or suck it up and figure out where to stay during orientation and move in in sept? any advice you can give me would be great!



Hey Tuxedo:

I honestly think the best place to live for the LS is near porter square (I feel I'm objective since I don't live near Porter). You can even save some significant coin if you live on the somerville side of Porter Square (although your walk will be further). It will be cheaper and quieter than Harvard Square, and it has a full size grocery store, which you cannot find in Harvard or Central Square (unless you are willing to pay whole food prices in Central).

The best way I found to look for apartments is padmapper.com Basically it takes Craigslist ads, along with listings from a few other rental websites and then maps it onto google maps. This way it's easy to look at apartments in exactly the geographic area you want. It also provides some nice filter, favourite, hide, etc. type functionality.

jjjjjjjj
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby jjjjjjjj » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:17 pm

chances grades come before Wednesday?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Rising Harvard 2L taking questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:56 pm

jjjjjjjj wrote:chances grades come before Wednesday?


lol no way, wed is already way earlier than id hoped. that being said, i dont mind you checking incessantly from here on out and letting us no if it does come in early :P




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