Emory 2L Taking Q's Forum

[forty-two]

Another q: Atlanta's got a huge crime rate--among the top 3 worst cities in the US last I checked. Is this a problem or an interference in any way? Whether or not I'd want to practice in Atlanta depends on whether or not I *know* Atlanta to be safe, at least in the neighborhoods I'd live in. I'm assuming Emory law itself is safe, but what about the area right outside?

And would you say the 20%+ who end in the NE got there because of connections, or is it quite possible to land in the NE and practice there without connections?

(1) The area around Emory is safe. It's a nice, suburban neighborhood (a few miles away from the actual city). Also, the school itself is super safe. People typically just leave their computers and things in the library when they take dinner breaks or whatever, and I've never heard of anything going missing.

(2) I'm just a 1L with little to no interest in the NE, so I don't really feel qualified to answer your second question. I've heard that NY is doable with good grades, but that's about the extent of my knowledge.

[treeey86]

If you have great grades and want NE biglaw, having a strong connection will only matter for the Boston market (which is known to only hire those with connections). NYC firms just assume everyone wants to be in NYC and will take you if you have great grades.

If you have weaker or weak grades ( median or below) then you will need a connection. I dont think this rule is unique to Emory. Pretty much every strong regional school is like this. Great grades from a strong well-known regional school will get you out of the region regardless of connections. Anything less will make you competitive for the school's region and those places you have a connection.

[FGCUguy123]

I just recently got in at Emory and I must say, this current job market scares the living crap out of me. I have this overarching fear that if I do not operate within Emory's top 30%, I will not get a job that could possibly pay back my tuition (I have a $10,000/yr scholarship). I have no problem staying in Atlanta. In fact, I think Atlanta would be a great place to live. Taking this into consideration, do you think my fear is out-reached, or is my trepidation legitimate? What are the chances of a job (staying, of course, above the median)? And, further, are people actually getting decent Atlanta jobs coming out of Emory?

I would greatly appreciate some feedback.

[treeey86]

Emory is a T20-25 school year in and out. Its employment numbers are good. Being above median you will get a legal job. Beyond that no one can comment on your situation. Getting a job depends on your interest ( do you want to clerk, go to a firm, state gvt work, etc?), personality ( are you the right fit for the organization), grades, legal work experience, previous work experience, ability to connect with an interviewer, etc. US News publishes Emory's employment stats. So does Emory on its website. There is no doubt in my mind that students above median get legal jobs that allow them to pay off their law school debt. students below the Top 30% can get, and have gotten, big law jobs out of Emory. The question you should be asking yourself is whether a legal career is for you. If so, then Emory is a fine choice of school, Atlanta is a big enough legal market, and if you hustle in school and in your professional career you will be fine. Pretty much everything I have written applies to any school in the T20-30 range.

[MrAnon]

What if the entire class hustles? Won't 50% of the class finish below median? What happens to them?

[gobucks101]

Another 2L here but going ADA route if any questions. Also it is 70 degrees and sunny today. Atlanta wins. As for crime, nothing to worry about around Emory. I blame Clayton County (airport region) for our crime rates

[gobucks101]

What if the entire class hustles? Won't 50% of the class finish below median? What happens to them?

100% of the class heads into law school thinking they will be top 10% and 90% get disappointed. That is just a fact of law school. Class of 2009 still had 93% of students set 9 months after graduation with almost 70% in law firms. Of those in the law firms less than 5% were in solo firms and 20% were in 2-10 attorney firms with avg. 55k salary so bottom of class is still managing. Remember that the classses of 2009-2012 were really rocked by the economy so things should pick up for incoming classes. Class of 2008 had 95% report as set and that is where I imagine it will be for you guys albeit lower salaries. You know whether you are going to get big law 1st semester of 2nd year. That gives you a year and a half to network and bust your ass and find a small to midsize firm. We constantly have firms post on simplicity looking for extra help during the school year and that is a great way in.

[MrAnon]

Here is another student perspective. http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/emory-la ... need-jobs/

To My Fellow Emory Law Students,

This has gotten absolutely ridiculous. When we first entered Emory Law School, jobs were plentiful and career services could sit around and do nothing. Things are much different now. In 2008, the market collapse stunned the legal job market. Those $160,000+ jobs went from plentiful to a rare commodity, yet our tuition continues to rise and our loans accrue.

What has career services done? Nothing. Remember this item [http://abovethelaw.com/2009/07/emory-la ... mic-storm/] on Abovethelaw from exactly a year ago? Apparently, they’ve been a little too calm in this storm. Nevertheless, they still operate under their prior m.o. (sit in the office, do nothing but play solitaire, and expect jobs to walk into their office). Whenever students complain about the lack of OCI jobs (that will be discussed in another paragraph below), their response always references the down economy. When we ask for advice, we are told “Network.” Upon further inquiry about networking tips, we are told, “Talk to people.” They haven’t even attempted the extremes at Duke or SMU Law; options exist, but they don’t want to do the work.

Our tuition finances this ridiculous office? We have a decent sized staff that I estimate to be 7-8 employees. What do they do to help? Nothing. Then becomes even clearer when you look to our past two OCI cycles:

Spring 2010:
* 4 Total Jobs
– 1 Military
– 1 Public Interest
– 1 Job in Georgia (yes, the entire state)
– 1 Job in Alabama

Fall 2010:
* 1 Total Job (not a misprint)

So let’s assume we have 8 full-time employees in career services. For Spring 2010, each employee brought ½ job to OCI. This Fall, they brought 1/8 a job a piece. In any other business setting, this department would be disbanded or purged from the payroll. Apparently at Emory Law School, this is business as usual. Nothing to see here folks, move along. If Professor Pratt (one person, not eight), can operate the entire field placement program (with at least 30 students a semester), I would expect a full-time staff to be able to replicate her output (at a minimum).

I think a student-run career service office could do better than this full-time staff. Maybe SBA should operate career services? Rather than pay a full-time staff, offer incentives for students to find jobs for fellow students? It would at a minimum be a much more efficient use of our money. Most people here got jobs from friends or friends of friends (maybe all the “networking” paid off; Thanks Career Services J).

Career services has no contact with mid or small firms in Atlanta (hell, they barely have contacts at BigLaw). Even our public interest jobs are lacking, and if it weren’t for EPIC, we would probably have no presence in this field.

It’s time for a change, we need to let our voices be heard. The pathetic thing is that they don’t even know our names. I’ve run into my career advisor in the hall, and when I say hi, she looks puzzled and asks me how I’m doing (while her brain tries to figure out who the hell I am). Who knows, it might be due to the rampant turnover they have each month. I don’t know how many career advisors we’ve had, but I know I get a ton of emails each time a new one is hired. Hmmm, could that be poor management from the top (*cough* “Dean” Hutchinson *cough*)?

They hide in their offices and appear once a semester with donuts. We don’t need donuts, we need jobs.

Sincerely,
The Unemployed Legal Eagle

[MrAnon]

Here is some information about employment statistics. http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/quote-of ... -interest/


t is not in anyone’s interest — especially that of prospective students — to have less than accurate data being put out by law schools. It’s creating a crisis of confidence in the law school sector that is unnecessary and we think could be easily fixed.

Specifically, employment after graduation is relevant data that prospective students and other consumers should be entitled to. Many graduate business schools are meticulous about collecting such data, even having it audited. The entire law school sector is perceived to be less than candid because it does not pursue a similar, disciplined approach to data collection and reporting.

– U.S. News editor Brian Kelly, in a letter recently sent to law school deans. As explained by U.S. News rankings czar Bob Morse in a post at Morse Code, U.S. News “agrees with the efforts of Law School Transparency to improve employment information from law schools and make the data more widely available.” (Read more at the WSJ Law Blog and ABA Journal.)

[gobucks101]

Yea I remember reading that over the summer. I certainly sympathize with the writer, though I wish they had gone about it in a more mature and discrete fashion. OCI isn't great, but Emory does a decent job of providing interviews in major cities. For example, the 2009 Emory in New York Interview Program had 21 employers, mostly major firms. The Emory in Washington D.C. Program had 7 employers (3 big firms, 4 govt. programs). There is also the Chicago and the New England Program. For those interested in public service there were dozens of employers at the Georgia Public Sector Fair. I got several summer offers from the surrounding DA's there and am very happy. Given how many of these interview programs we have in pretty much every major legal U.S. city I am not surprised that firms didn't send people to OCI to interview more people. Career services should step it up no doubt but people need to buck up
http://www.law.emory.edu/career-service ... iting.html

edit- that part about public interest field is BS. We have an amazing field placement program with pretty much every DA and public defender offices in the metro counties and I credit taking advantage of that for getting me my upcoming summer work. In all but one of my interviews one of the interviewers was an Emory alum and that is because that was only one interviewer. Follow-up interviews include two Emory alumni. Also I saw someone earlier posted about the Tiger program. I have two friends who are in that so if you forward me you questions I can get some responses from them in a few days
In regards to the bimodal model shown earlier it should be noted on that class of 2009 stats that at the minimum 76% of the students who went to law firms started at 70k. If you are one of those and stay in ATL COL translates to 84k in NYC

[FGCUguy123]

Yea I remember reading that over the summer. I certainly sympathize with the writer, though I wish they had gone about it in a more mature and discrete fashion. OCI isn't great, but Emory does a decent job of providing interviews in major cities. For example, the 2009 Emory in New York Interview Program had 21 employers, mostly major firms. The Emory in Washington D.C. Program had 7 employers (3 big firms, 4 govt. programs). There is also the Chicago and the New England Program. For those interested in public service there were dozens of employers at the Georgia Public Sector Fair. I got several summer offers from the surrounding DA's there and am very happy. Given how many of these interview programs we have in pretty much every major legal U.S. city I am not surprised that firms didn't send people to OCI to interview more people. Career services should step it up no doubt but people need to buck up
http://www.law.emory.edu/career-service ... iting.html

edit- that part about public interest field is BS. We have an amazing field placement program with pretty much every DA and public defender offices in the metro counties and I credit taking advantage of that for getting me my upcoming summer work. In all but one of my interviews one of the interviewers was an Emory alum and that is because that was only one interviewer. Follow-up interviews include two Emory alumni. Also I saw someone earlier posted about the Tiger program. I have two friends who are in that so if you forward me you questions I can get some responses from them in a few days
In regards to the bimodal model shown earlier it should be noted on that class of 2009 stats that at the minimum 76% of the students who went to law firms started at 70k. If you are one of those and stay in ATL COL translates to 84k in NYC

So you would agree with the statement that The Unemployed Legal Eagle is exaggerating the status of job placement for Emory students?

[gobucks101]

So you would agree with the statement that The Unemployed Legal Eagle is exaggerating the status of job placement for Emory students?

I don't want to go criticizing my classmates and I think that Legal Eagle has legit gripes about the career services office. Having said that, I think things are not as dire as the email would leave you to believe and jobs are there if you take a proactive approach and take advantage of the various Emory interview programs. The same advice carries for any school in the 20-25 ranking

[kaspar]

Yea I remember reading that over the summer. I certainly sympathize with the writer, though I wish they had gone about it in a more mature and discrete fashion. OCI isn't great, but Emory does a decent job of providing interviews in major cities. For example, the 2009 Emory in New York Interview Program had 21 employers, mostly major firms. The Emory in Washington D.C. Program had 7 employers (3 big firms, 4 govt. programs). There is also the Chicago and the New England Program. For those interested in public service there were dozens of employers at the Georgia Public Sector Fair. I got several summer offers from the surrounding DA's there and am very happy. Given how many of these interview programs we have in pretty much every major legal U.S. city I am not surprised that firms didn't send people to OCI to interview more people. Career services should step it up no doubt but people need to buck up
http://www.law.emory.edu/career-service ... iting.html

edit- that part about public interest field is BS. We have an amazing field placement program with pretty much every DA and public defender offices in the metro counties and I credit taking advantage of that for getting me my upcoming summer work. In all but one of my interviews one of the interviewers was an Emory alum and that is because that was only one interviewer. Follow-up interviews include two Emory alumni. Also I saw someone earlier posted about the Tiger program. I have two friends who are in that so if you forward me you questions I can get some responses from them in a few days
In regards to the bimodal model shown earlier it should be noted on that class of 2009 stats that at the minimum 76% of the students who went to law firms started at 70k. If you are one of those and stay in ATL COL translates to 84k in NYC

So you would agree with the statement that The Unemployed Legal Eagle is exaggerating the status of job placement for Emory students?

What you need to understand is that those numbers, which are probably the most damning part of that rant, are 3L OCI numbers. 3L OCI is notoriously underwhelming at just about every school. The VAST majority of NALP employers do their recruiting for 2L summer, so the only employers that are hiring 3L's are those that underanticipated the number of new associates they would need (and so extended fewer offers to 2L's than necessary). Because this is the way NALP recruiting works, the VAST majority of students who will work for NALP firms have those offers in hand long before 3L OCI.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, he has some legitimate gripes about OCS. But (1) just about every school out there has a less-than-effective career services operation, simply because the legal market is not great, and (2) his use of 3L OCI numbers to rag on Emory is rather misleading. 4 employers or whatever it was sounds horrible, but compare it to 3L OCI at other schools and I think you'll see it's not as bad as it sounds. 2L OCI is really the measure you should be looking at.

[MrAnon]

So, because its bad everywhere, Emory is a comparatively okay choice?

Pretty sure 2L OCI didn't work out for him.

[gobucks101]

So, because its bad everywhere, Emory is a comparatively okay choice?

Pretty sure 2L OCI didn't work out for him.

I think it is a matter of expectations. Understand that you have to be top 1/3 at a school like Emory if your goal is big law. That means 66.6% of the class ain't gonna get that. You also have to be a likable person. Interviewers only care so much about grades they want to make sure that you can talk sports, news, be a human being etc. and that you aren't a douche. Considering our endowment, I think Emory is a fantastic choice for someone with above median numbers who wouldn't get any $ from 17-20.

[kaspar]

So, because its bad everywhere, Emory is a comparatively okay choice?

Pretty sure 2L OCI didn't work out for him.

I suppose you could put it that way. My point is, that rant from ATL has been bandied around TLS as the #1 reason to avoid Emory. But if you look at 3L OCI at comparable schools, T20-T30, it's about the same everywhere. So to use it as damning evidence of Emory's failings is sort of disingenuous. Does 3L OCI at Emory suck? Yes. Does 3L OCI at just about every other school not inside the T14, plus maybe Vandy/Texas/UCLA? Yes.

So, did 2L OCI work out for that guy? Obviously not. But he was in probably the worst year in the history of OCI, and I would wager he didn't have very good grades, otherwise he likely would not have been looking for a job at 3L OCI.

This is why you don't go to a school like Emory, or any similar school, and pay full freight, unless you are confident you can end up in the top part of the class (which you can't be), or are satisfied with IBR. It's just not a smart investment.

[MrAnon]

So the lesson is don't go to Emory unless you are satisfied that government repayment assistance is the right thing for you?

[gobucks101]

So the lesson is don't go to Emory unless you are satisfied that government repayment assistance is the right thing for you?

Again I don't know if there is a right statement for whether Emory is for you. LRAP is definitely a positive. I am going PI so I didn't have any worries but Emory's endowment assured debt wasn't a concern for me. If you are planning big law with zero interest in PI then there are so many variables that I can't give you a straight answer. If you're gunning for big law and thinking Emory at full sticker then I want to know where you are from before I give a good answer. If you are from Georgia, for Christ's sake go to Georgia. If you are from North Dakota and the next best option is Illinois but you hate the cold then maybe Emory is the best option. If we are comparing scholarships then I want to know where the schools are, what market the person wants to end up in, and probably a few other variables. There is no easy answer and that is what makes this decision so hard. All I can say is if you want to know things about Emory or the ATL I can give you more specific advice but there is no one answer for all.

[kaspar]

So the lesson is don't go to Emory unless you are satisfied that government repayment assistance is the right thing for you?

I don't think that's what I said. And I'm getting the feeling you're being purposefully obtuse in order to further some agenda against Emory, or similar schools, or something. And it's sort of weird.

Anyway, what I said was...the way I see it, there are three situations in which school XXX makes sense. (1) You are on a substantial scholarship. Close to 50% or more, or have family help/trust fund/etc. (2) You are not interested in biglaw, and want PI work or other low-paying work for which IBR will cover your loans. (3) You will grade in the top 1/3 or so of the class.

Obviously, #3 is difficult, if not impossible, to predict. So if you're going to school XXX, you really should think about whether it's worth it to pay full tuition if you're gunning for biglaw. Because the numbers show that around 2/3 of people who go to school XXX will not get a biglaw job, or one paying enough to comfortably live and service loans.

If needing to grade in the top 1/3 is a gamble you're willing to take, then so be it. I just think one should know what the odds/stakes are before taking gambles.

School XXX = any school below the Top 16 or 17 or so. This applies equally to Emory, WUSTL, BC, etc etc etc. Which is why the vitriol against Emory in comparison to other, similarly ranked schools never really made a lot of sense to me.

[MrAnon]

I think the "vitriol" is about equal to the number of boosters who show up claiming those schools are national, place tons of kids in NYC, etc.

[gobucks101]

I think the "vitriol" is about equal to the number of boosters who show up claiming those schools are national, place tons of kids in NYC, etc.

23% of class of 2009 is in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. I think this can be a a good thread for people seriously interested in Emory and who have legit questions about the school, Atlanta, apartments etc. Don't be that guy and derail it into another T-14 or bust thread. Nobody likes that guy.

FYI- 72 degrees and sunny in ATL right now. Weekend forecast is 77 degrees and sunny. It is 34 degrees in South Bend and 44 degrees in Boston.

[FGCUguy123]

I think the "vitriol" is about equal to the number of boosters who show up claiming those schools are national, place tons of kids in NYC, etc.

23% of class of 2009 is in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. I think this can be a a good thread for people seriously interested in Emory and who have legit questions about the school, Atlanta, apartments etc. Don't be that guy and derail it into another T-14 or bust thread. Nobody likes that guy.

FYI- 72 degrees and sunny in ATL right now. Weekend forecast is 77 degrees and sunny. It is 34 degrees in South Bend and 44 degrees in Boston.

Great advice. Emory is a wonderful school. This should be a thread about various aspects of life at Emory. Law school is a gamble. You need to figure out a way to tip the scales in your favor. That means marketing yourself. That being said, and to keep this thread from becoming derailed by anti-Emory nonsense...what's the deal with campus crossings? I know it was mentioned on the thread earlier but, I would like to know, is it a good place to live? Also, what about the area around campus? Where do law students typically like to hang out?

[forty-two]

Great advice. Emory is a wonderful school. This should be a thread about various aspects of life at Emory. Law school is a gamble. You need to figure out a way to tip the scales in your favor. That means marketing yourself. That being said, and to keep this thread from becoming derailed by anti-Emory nonsense...what's the deal with campus crossings? I know it was mentioned on the thread earlier but, I would like to know, is it a good place to live? Also, what about the area around campus? Where do law students typically like to hang out?

Campus Crossings is a new building, and a ton of law/grad students live there. There were a bunch of problems with the building and management last year (the first year it was open), but everyone I've talked to who lives there this year seems to like it, so I guess the management got most of the kinks worked out. People like it because it's close, easy, and near an Emory bus stop so the people who live there don't need to pay for parking passes. It's one of the more expensive places to live, but it comes furnished and I think a lot of the utilities are included. A lot of people also live in Post Briarcliff, which is a very nice apartment complex that doesn't allow undergrads, so it's a lot quieter than some of the other complexes near campus. I also know some people who share houses in and around Virginia Highlands, which is where a lot of Emory students hang out. Basically, there are a lot of relatively cheap housing options near campus, and you'll most likely find some law and grad students at all of them.

[MrAnon]

Why is the weather in Boston relevant to this thread? If people want weather they should consider school in Miami.

[Omerta]

Why is the weather in Boston relevant to this thread? If people want weather they should consider school in Miami.

Yeah, except Miami (as a city and law school) sucks and you're hoping for top 5% so you can get W&C or welcome to 1-800-ABOGADO.

I'm a 1L at Emory right now. How much value does mock trial have? I have zero interest in doing moot court. Right now, I'm well inside the grade onto LR band (in the top 1%). I'm going to do the write on anyway, but (1) if disaster hits this semester, what are the odds of top 10% plus good write on making LR? (2) is it worth trying out for mock trial in my situation?