The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

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MinnesotaBigLaw11
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MinnesotaBigLaw11 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:32 pm

vlienj24 wrote:Not sure if this has been asked yet, but do Minnesota firm's ever hire 3L's for entry level positions? If so what type of numbers would a person need to have from Wisconsin? Thanks!



We hire very few 3Ls and it is usually only under unique circumstances, typically when there is high turnover at the junior associate level or a major project comes in that will require more junior associates than the particular group planned on hiring. Numbers should be high, although you will have a very different competition subgroup during 3L recruiting. I couldn't tell you what you should be shooting for because 3L hiring has been down since 2008. A big factor will be where you worked and what experience you gained during your 2L summer.

Another option you should look into is clerking. Firms will often hire clerks who are working for a federal court or the Minnesota Supreme Court. If you can pull one of these clerkships, you should be able to obtain a few interviews while you are clerking.

Good luck!

sconnielaw13
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby sconnielaw13 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:11 am

MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
vlienj24 wrote:Not sure if this has been asked yet, but do Minnesota firm's ever hire 3L's for entry level positions? If so what type of numbers would a person need to have from Wisconsin? Thanks!



We hire very few 3Ls and it is usually only under unique circumstances, typically when there is high turnover at the junior associate level or a major project comes in that will require more junior associates than the particular group planned on hiring. Numbers should be high, although you will have a very different competition subgroup during 3L recruiting. I couldn't tell you what you should be shooting for because 3L hiring has been down since 2008. A big factor will be where you worked and what experience you gained during your 2L summer.

Another option you should look into is clerking. Firms will often hire clerks who are working for a federal court or the Minnesota Supreme Court. If you can pull one of these clerkships, you should be able to obtain a few interviews while you are clerking.

Good luck!


Thanks!

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Pathika
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Pathika » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:03 pm

I'm a 1L summer starter at UMich and, although I only took two classes in the summer, I have a 4.0. I applied for 1L jobs to all the major Minnesota firms, and my cover letter says I want to work practice there because my wife is from there and still has family there. I've had one firm, so far, explicitly tell me that they were not interested because my ties weren't strong enough. I'm inclined to believe them because I don't imagine my GPA is an issue nor is prior work experience... Any idea if this is just specific to this one firm (i.e. some firms literally require 1st person ties), or if this is something I can overcome?

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Tanicius
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Tanicius » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:01 pm

Just keep it simple and say you want to work in Minneapolis because of your significant other. If they get anymore specific, say you're married and your wife wants to live there and that her family's from there.

MinnesotaBigLaw11
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MinnesotaBigLaw11 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:50 pm

Tanicius wrote:Just keep it simple and say you want to work in Minneapolis because of your significant other. If they get anymore specific, say you're married and your wife wants to live there and that her family's from there.


I agree with this. You should really just emphasize your reasons and be honest. This is as good a reason as any I've heard.

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Nova
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Nova » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:00 pm

MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Just keep it simple and say you want to work in Minneapolis because of your significant other. If they get anymore specific, say you're married and your wife wants to live there and that her family's from there.


I agree with this. You should really just emphasize your reasons and be honest. This is as good a reason as any I've heard.


General advice for UMN grads whose grades disqualify them from biglaw?

How can I tell which small law firms are successful ones I would want to work for?

Should I just go down the phone book?!

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Tanicius
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Tanicius » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:03 pm

Nova wrote:
MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Just keep it simple and say you want to work in Minneapolis because of your significant other. If they get anymore specific, say you're married and your wife wants to live there and that her family's from there.


I agree with this. You should really just emphasize your reasons and be honest. This is as good a reason as any I've heard.


General advice for UMN grads whose grades disqualify them from biglaw?

How can I tell which small law firms are successful ones I would want to work for?

Should I just go down the phone book?!



Talk to people, dude. If you're from Minnesota and know any lawyers, put the word out that you're looking for work and see if they have any recommendations for small firms.

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UVAIce
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby UVAIce » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:06 pm

Nova wrote:
MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Just keep it simple and say you want to work in Minneapolis because of your significant other. If they get anymore specific, say you're married and your wife wants to live there and that her family's from there.


I agree with this. You should really just emphasize your reasons and be honest. This is as good a reason as any I've heard.


General advice for UMN grads whose grades disqualify them from biglaw?

How can I tell which small law firms are successful ones I would want to work for?

Should I just go down the phone book?!


What the poster above said and network!!! There are so many little receptions and little shin digs in the Cities that you should be able to gather a lot of information on smaller firms. Also, check out the Law Moose top 100 firms in Minnesota and start cruising firms' websites.

Do you have any idea what kind of law you want to practice?

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UVAIce
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby UVAIce » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:10 pm

Pathika wrote:I'm a 1L summer starter at UMich and, although I only took two classes in the summer, I have a 4.0. I applied for 1L jobs to all the major Minnesota firms, and my cover letter says I want to work practice there because my wife is from there and still has family there. I've had one firm, so far, explicitly tell me that they were not interested because my ties weren't strong enough. I'm inclined to believe them because I don't imagine my GPA is an issue nor is prior work experience... Any idea if this is just specific to this one firm (i.e. some firms literally require 1st person ties), or if this is something I can overcome?


I think some firms are a little pickier with ties when it comes to 1L SA positions. They want a high probability of a 1L candidate coming back for their second summer and matriculating at the firm. What they don't want is to pay a T-14 grad ~$20K for a summer and never hear from them again. Just brainstorm ways that you would express your desire to start a family in Minnesota with your wife, who is a Minnesotan.

Also, I think you'll have no problem come 2L if you really want to work in the Twin Cities.

That being said, I am just a 1L so take my advice with an immense grain of salt.

Also, PM me if you want to talk about 1L positions in Minnesota.

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Nova
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Nova » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:19 pm

UVAIce wrote: What the poster above said and network!!! There are so many little receptions and little shin digs in the Cities that you should be able to gather a lot of information on smaller firms. Also, check out the Law Moose top 100 firms in Minnesota and start cruising firms' websites.

Do you have any idea what kind of law you want to practice?


Thanks UVAIce, Ill look at that. Thanks Tanicius.

Im a 1L btw. Currently looking for summer work, but Im trying to keep the big picture in mind :?

I would love be a PD/ADA. For private sector work, criminal defense would be at the top of my list.

redline380
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby redline380 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:16 pm

thanks for responding to my pm. i'll ask this question on here since others may be interested. how does the employment look for outstate minnesota? i am from minnesota, but not the cities and i wont be going to umn. my undergrad was another one of the larger state universities. assuming biglaw isn't in the works for me, where else could i work? i like minnesota and want to stay here. i'd have no problem working in duluth, rochester, st. cloud, hell even brainerd or bemidji. pay is not a huge motivating factor for me. let's just assume private employment for this question.

playhurling
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby playhurling » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:47 pm

MinnesotaBigLaw11 (or anyone else w/ this knowledge), could you comment on UMN vs WM vs UST for future employment prospects? All of the info I can find on TLS seems outdated. UST seems to be making strides and I'd like to know an insider's opinion on where they might stand in 2016. I'd be going to one of these 3 schools and practicing in the Twin Cities market long term. I'm concerned about UMN because it costs more and the student body is more competitive, meaning getting a high class rank would be more challenging. I don't have a specific career interest but want to keep large MN firms as an option. Thoughts?

MinnesotaBigLaw11
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MinnesotaBigLaw11 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:33 pm

Playhurling,

You should visit each of the campuses to get a feel. As you know, UMN is the best of the three options you listed. Also, if you are an in-state resident, the tuition should not be significantly more than the others. However, UST and WM may provide you with a scholarship to persuade you to attend one of those schools. If you can keep your law school debt under a reasonable amount, Minnesota is still a good option. However, if your debt load is going to be high, UMN is going to be a difficult degree to pay off in the event you end up in the bottom half of the class (remember, 50% chance of this happening, give or take, regardless of how successful you've been up to this point). If you can keep your debt down, Minnesota is the best option. Consider living in a cheap apartment, etc. to make it more affordable.

UST and WM are also decent options, although you are going to have to do very well at either school if you want to work at one of the larger firms in Minneapolis. I would say they are about equal in terms of reputation and placement at big firms in the cities. Most years my firm hires two or three from St. Thomas and one or two from WM, but the numbers can fluctuate any given year and I've heard other firms sometimes have the opposite hiring preferences. This is why I really consider them equal rather than St. Thomas as the better school. As a student looking at employment prospects, they are probably pretty equal. If I were looking at one of these schools in comparison to Minnesota, I would expect a significant scholarship. These are decent options, but at the end of the day, you may not end up practicing law out of these schools if you don't end up in the top half of the class. So you should only attend these schools if you can graduate with little to no law school debt.

Other options for you to consider are the other Big Ten schools in the area. Most firms will look at Iowa and Wisconsin graduates, both of which can be cheaper options that Minnesota given their locations in more rural parts of the country.

Good luck.

playhurling
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby playhurling » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:16 pm

Thanks for the advice!

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grahamkellis
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby grahamkellis » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:10 pm

I am going to feel really dumb if this has been covered already, does anyone know which school (UST or WM) offers the best chance to transfer to UMN? I understand that you will probably have to be top 10-15%. I wasn't sure if there was any advantage for either school. Thanks! And Thanks for fielding prior questions, this has helped a lot!

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:26 am

MinnesotaBigLaw11,

First, thank you for answering questions on TLS!

I was wondering how Minneapolis/STP firms look at dual degrees? Will law firms look at me as a potential hire regardless of whether they want to utilize my "health policy" background, the scenario being I had such a background? I heard that sometimes dual degrees will actually limit your employment potential. I may go for a dual degree in a field of interest, but I do not want it to make me a one trick pony to interviewers.

Also, how do firms look at older students? Not 40 or something, but late 20's/early 30's? A friend and I will be in this position come graduation and it's not like we have 10 years of spectacular employment record under our belt. For me, there is only one year between graduating undergrad and going to law school, so they may not "know" I'm a little older, but my friend is another story.

Thanks for the feedback. We really appreciate your time here!

UndecidedMN
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby UndecidedMN » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:23 pm

I transferred from WM to the U. It was an exceptionally large transfer class, about 50 people. This is because of the job market. I would not go to UST right now because of the scandal. It may sort itself out next year, but it was really dumb and ruined some credibility. I heard last year transferring was easy because they had a low incoming class. It may be harder next year, but figure 155+ LSAT top 25% minimum to transfer. Regardless, transferring is easier than actually applying.

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Tanicius
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Tanicius » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:36 pm

UndecidedMN wrote:I transferred from WM to the U. It was an exceptionally large transfer class, about 50 people. This is because of the job market. I would not go to UST right now because of the scandal. It may sort itself out next year, but it was really dumb and ruined some credibility. I heard last year transferring was easy because they had a low incoming class. It may be harder next year, but figure 155+ LSAT top 25% minimum to transfer. Regardless, transferring is easier than actually applying.


Scandal? Do tell.

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minnbills
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby minnbills » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:19 pm

They misreported employment stats

UndecidedMN
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby UndecidedMN » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:24 pm

Here is the article:

http://www.startribune.com/local/144748985.html?refer=y

Basically they were lieing about their employment stats and other things to U.S. News & World Report Law School Rankings to increase their ranking. In the end, they lost their ranking. UST has been pushing to be the "#2" law school in MN, better than WM. They have been making some strides, their building is absolutely beautiful and they can offer joint degree programs such as JD/MBA that WM cannot because it is a standalone college of law. However, if you don't make it to UM, the smaller law firms are much more populated right not by WM grads. You need to take that into consideration.

UndecidedMN
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby UndecidedMN » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:54 pm

One other thing about transferring, if you want to go biglaw, it is a problem because you really can't get any OCI interviews and lose out on 2L summer associate positions.

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minnbills
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby minnbills » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:16 pm

UndecidedMN wrote:One other thing about transferring, if you want to go biglaw, it is a problem because you really can't get any OCI interviews and lose out on 2L summer associate positions.


Really? Transfers don't get OCI?

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:47 am

OCI is available for UMN transfers according to the law school site. http://www.law.umn.edu/prospective/admi ... qs.html#59 ...as are opportunities for journal, etc.

And while I am a 0L, I can't imagine transferring is easier than applying the traditional route. How is one full year of 1L torture classes easier than a few months of study to bring up the LSAT? I can never figure how people think transferring is "easier." Not to be antagonistic, :)

UndecidedMN
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby UndecidedMN » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:44 am

1) Transfers do get the opportunity to participate in OCI as soon as they accept their school offer. However, trying to get an interview from some firm participating in OCI for UMN while not having any grades from that school is very hard. Also by the time you accept that UMN transfer offer (unless you do it early), most likely you will miss the submission deadlines for those firms. I know this from experience. Trust me, if you transfer it will be EXTREMELY difficult to get an interview for your 1L/2L summer.

2) Transferring is easier and harder to get into UMN. First, the median LSAT score was 167 for the incoming class. I think 25/75 GPA was 3.37 - 3.96. From what I understand, UMN has a lot of one really good and one ok. In other words, 170 LSAT, 3.37 GPA or 3.95 GPA undergrad, 162 LSAT. These things matter much less when you transfer. I am not saying they let anyone in, but your grades and class rank from your other school matter much more. Here is the dirty little secret about transferring, law schools do not have to report to US News and World Report the LSAT and GPA of their transfers. Also another big factor, it is very rare (like 1 out of 1000 previously, although the new "normal" of today's admission may change this) for transfers to get scholarships. A transfer almost always pays the full ride. I have talked to several transfers this year, none of them got scholarships and in fact many left significant scholarships to come to UMN.

3) Lastly, your grades do not transfer. Only your credits transfer. So if you are top 10% at WM and this gets you into UMN, you lose your grades. You get lumped into the 2L class and basically your grades their only count to your class rank. This can be a good or bad thing, but usually a bad thing. If you are transferring, you are most likely transferring to a better school with better students. Your grades, especially in curved classes could easily be lower than from where you left. Top 10% class rank at WM does not mean you will be top 10% at UMN. Most likely it doesn't because you are now facing a top 20 Tier 1 law school class versus a top 100-120 Tier 2/3 law school class. Just simple math means you will probably not do as well. Maintaining your class rank from one school to another is quite an achievement. Figure this, I think it has been said that biglaw looks at top 10% UST/WM and top 25% UMN. Why do you think this is?

MinnesotaBigLaw11
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MinnesotaBigLaw11 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:28 pm

I've been gone for a while, so below are some catch-up responses:

Older Students:
I can only speak to my firm really, but we do not discriminate against older students. You may hear stories that some firms favor young summer associates (read: under 35) because they will be less reluctant to do document review in their early years. I've had young associates and old associates work for me, and the truth of the matter is, if someone doesn't want to do the project assigned, they won't be around for very long regardless of their age. I personally don't care how old you are as long as you're smart and willing to work. You can usually tell who is eager and who is not within the first ten to fifteen minutes of working with a new associate.

Non-BigLaw Employment:
The twin cities may not be Chicago or some large coastal market, but we have some very good companies to work for. If you don't end up in biglaw, you can make the move in-house, either as an attorney or as a compliance specialist. There are many employers in the cities that hire law graduates every year. I don't think anyone should limit their employment focus to merely large law firms. [FYI: I've said this before, but there are really no firms in Minnesota that would be considered "BigLaw", so when I read people who use that term, I read it to mean the larger two or three firms in the state.]

Regarding US News:
We don't typically talk about the US News rankings of law schools. You'll notice very quickly after you graduate that lawyers care much less about law school rankings than law students. My understanding of the UST situation with US News was not that UST lied, but that there was a clerical error that UST corrected. US News, per their policy, removed the school from the rankings for that current year. It wasn't really a scandal as someone previously posted, but an odd policy by the magazine. Regardless, UST and WM are typically ranked in the third tier and that is how we see them (note that this is true for WM even in the years that WM falls to the fourth tier). Neither is really held to be better than the other, even when one is ranked significantly higher, like UST was a year or two ago, or WM a few years before that.

Regarding Transfers:
From a biglaw hiring perspective, we do not discriminate against transfer students. Different schools have different systems in place, so you'll want to make sure that transfer students are treated fairly by the law school you attend. Most law firms will treat transfer students exactly what they are: law students who did very well in their first year. This is what we are looking for. If you do attend a school that appears to favor non-transfers, you'll want to take the initiative to get your resume in front of the hiring personnel. Do not rely on career services.




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