The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

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MidwestJosh
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:45 am

Ljsmith2 wrote:This is aimed at the original poster. What do you think this falls OCI will be like for targeting MN firms? Interested coming from a T14.


Several firms have had much larger (even double sized, in some cases) summer associate classes this past summer than the summer before. If that trend is any indication, they'll probably expand recruitment a bit this year.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:48 am

MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
As for WM and Hamline, like I said, they are great schools, but the largest firms in Minnesota go deeper into the class at Minnesota and UST. I don't think it really matters all that much, to be honest. You need to do well at any of the Minnesota schools to get a position in biglaw. The most important thing for biglaw in Minnesota is grades, not school.


I have to disagree on this. The numbers disagree as well. There are far more Mitchell students and grads in the Summer Associate classes of Minneapolis than there are UST grads. And in reality, that's not that surprising. UST is only a decade old, with little alumni base and significantly easier admissions standards than Mitchell.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:50 am

MNbound wrote:@emske

I recieved a 100% scholarship at william mitchell this cycle. When I asked them at a law school fair how their full scholarships worked, they said that they looked for numbers at and above a 165 and a 3.50. However, I would try to leverage your scholarship with hamline, its worth a shot. Even if they say no, it's not like they would take away your 75% scholarsip.

I'm a 0L like yourself so I don't really know if my advice is the best, but I'm pretty sure everyone regards hamline as the worst of the 4 law schools in MN. I think the repuatation and alumni network of william mitchell far exceeds hamline and they also have a number of named scholarships you might be able to snag in your later years that would reduce the other 25%.


TITCR

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:30 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
As for WM and Hamline, like I said, they are great schools, but the largest firms in Minnesota go deeper into the class at Minnesota and UST. I don't think it really matters all that much, to be honest. You need to do well at any of the Minnesota schools to get a position in biglaw. The most important thing for biglaw in Minnesota is grades, not school.


I have to disagree on this. The numbers disagree as well. There are far more Mitchell students and grads in the Summer Associate classes of Minneapolis than there are UST grads. And in reality, that's not that surprising. UST is only a decade old, with little alumni base and significantly easier admissions standards than Mitchell.


But, isn't the class size ay WM much larger than UST? Also, UST has been a full-service university for a long time, so the law school can work off the brand name of the school, while WM is just a law school.

ETA: WM class size is 310, UST is 170. So, assume employers go as low as top 1/3 at UST (57 students) and top 20% at WM (61 students), you'd still have a larger representation of WM than UST.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ThomasMN » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:08 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
MinnesotaBigLaw11 wrote:
As for WM and Hamline, like I said, they are great schools, but the largest firms in Minnesota go deeper into the class at Minnesota and UST. I don't think it really matters all that much, to be honest. You need to do well at any of the Minnesota schools to get a position in biglaw. The most important thing for biglaw in Minnesota is grades, not school.


I have to disagree on this. The numbers disagree as well. There are far more Mitchell students and grads in the Summer Associate classes of Minneapolis than there are UST grads. And in reality, that's not that surprising. UST is only a decade old, with little alumni base and significantly easier admissions standards than Mitchell.


Huh? I really have little stake in this row, but all indications point to the fact that both schools have practically the same quality of student body in terms of LSAT and GPA - if you discount WM's part-time program. The fact is that both schools have very similar student bodies. This is mostly a question of alumni base. UST has more of a presence in the state as a whole and William and Mitchell is better established in the legal community.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:19 am

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
But, isn't the class size ay WM much larger than UST? Also, UST has been a full-service university for a long time, so the law school can work off the brand name of the school, while WM is just a law school.

ETA: WM class size is 310, UST is 170. So, assume employers go as low as top 1/3 at UST (57 students) and top 20% at WM (61 students), you'd still have a larger representation of WM than UST.


If we're talking big law, they're only talking to the top 5-10% at any of UST, Hamline or Mitchell. While we're talking big law and clerkships alone, I'll suggest that you call recruiters at each of the biggest firms in Minneapolis, and clerk's offices, and ask them the number of Mitchell grads they've hired in the last 5 years v. the number of UST grads they've hired in the last 5 years. You will be stunned. If we're talking smaller firms, business gigs, etc, you have to realize that most of those jobs come by way of networking - and it is substantially easier to network at Mitchell than it is at UST - largely b/c of that network and the history of the school.
Last edited by MidwestJosh on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:22 am

ThomasMN wrote:
Huh? I really have little stake in this row, but all indications point to the fact that both schools have practically the same quality of student body in terms of LSAT and GPA - if you discount WM's part-time program. The fact is that both schools have very similar student bodies. This is mostly a question of alumni base. UST has more of a presence in the state as a whole and William and Mitchell is better established in the legal community.


People need to put it out of their mind that the school name is going to get them a legal job. Outside big law, which I just described above, it's about networking. The bottom line is that Mitchell grads are being placed at a higher rate than UST grads. If you don't believe me, go to UST.

And there are qualitative differences in their class profiles. Despite pumping out ungodly amounts of money to try and buy their class, UST is still not caught up to matching Mitchell's profile.

By the way, UST is one of the only schools in the country still mass emailing and accepting applications in June/July. Take it for what's it's worth.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:10 pm

MidwestJosh wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:
Huh? I really have little stake in this row, but all indications point to the fact that both schools have practically the same quality of student body in terms of LSAT and GPA - if you discount WM's part-time program. The fact is that both schools have very similar student bodies. This is mostly a question of alumni base. UST has more of a presence in the state as a whole and William and Mitchell is better established in the legal community.


People need to put it out of their mind that the school name is going to get them a legal job. Outside big law, which I just described above, it's about networking. The bottom line is that Mitchell grads are being placed at a higher rate than UST grads. If you don't believe me, go to UST.

And there are qualitative differences in their class profiles. Despite pumping out ungodly amounts of money to try and buy their class, UST is still not caught up to matching Mitchell's profile.

By the way, UST is one of the only schools in the country still mass emailing and accepting applications in June/July. Take it for what's it's worth.


You make little to no sense. I have no dog in this fight as I don't go to either UST or WM.

But, you keep stating the number of WM graduates being hired is stupid. Of course there are more WM graduated being hired than UST graduates; WM is nearly twice the size of UST. Just because more exist doesn't mean that those from WM have a better shot at jobs... it simply means there are more WM grads looking than UST grads.

As far as non-big law jobs, you said it yourself, it is all about networking. On the whole, the entire University of St. Thomas has many more grads in the workforce than does WM. So, networking may go in the favor of USt, not WM. Sure, there are more lawyers that went to WM, but given the overall quality of students from both schools being pretty equal, I'd imagine that a hiring attorney that went to WM would look at a UST and WM grad equally, so I'm not sure the WM degree is held in more regard than a UST degree.

Not to mention, most people in the place to even be hiring attorneys most likely went to law school prior to UST's existence as a law school, so it's not as if they chose WM (or any other school) over UST.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Tanicius » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:40 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:As far as non-big law jobs, you said it yourself, it is all about networking. On the whole, the entire University of St. Thomas has many more grads in the workforce than does WM. So, networking may go in the favor of USt, not WM. Sure, there are more lawyers that went to WM, but given the overall quality of students from both schools being pretty equal, I'd imagine that a hiring attorney that went to WM would look at a UST and WM grad equally, so I'm not sure the WM degree is held in more regard than a UST degree.


The people hiring you are, far and away, mostly law grads.

Not to mention, most people in the place to even be hiring attorneys most likely went to law school prior to UST's existence as a law school, so it's not as if they chose WM (or any other school) over UST.


I don't find this compelling.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:28 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
You make little to no sense. I have no dog in this fight as I don't go to either UST or WM.

But, you keep stating the number of WM graduates being hired is stupid. Of course there are more WM graduated being hired than UST graduates; WM is nearly twice the size of UST. Just because more exist doesn't mean that those from WM have a better shot at jobs... it simply means there are more WM grads looking than UST grads.

As far as non-big law jobs, you said it yourself, it is all about networking. On the whole, the entire University of St. Thomas has many more grads in the workforce than does WM. So, networking may go in the favor of USt, not WM. Sure, there are more lawyers that went to WM, but given the overall quality of students from both schools being pretty equal, I'd imagine that a hiring attorney that went to WM would look at a UST and WM grad equally, so I'm not sure the WM degree is held in more regard than a UST degree.

Not to mention, most people in the place to even be hiring attorneys most likely went to law school prior to UST's existence as a law school, so it's not as if they chose WM (or any other school) over UST.


Let me put it this way - even accounting for the ratio difference, UST grads are not being hired at even close to the level that Mitchell is. I never said Mitchell grads are being hired in throngs (or, as you put it, "in stupid numbers"). What I am saying is that Mitchell crushes UST in the Twin Cities market if you're simply speaking relative to each other. That is simply a fact; I am not hypothesizing.

I've made these phone calls to these firms, had dozens of lunches, networking events, etc; I went through an exhaustive law school application and selection process, was flown to Florida to speak at the Law School Admission Council Forum, work at the national level for Kaplan Pre-Law programming, am in court day in and day out with these attorneys under the student practice rule, and am 35 days from a JD from University of MInnesota (read: not WM, not UST). Take my opinion for what its worth. Or don't; and go do the research I've done and see for yourself.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:57 pm

MidwestJosh wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
You make little to no sense. I have no dog in this fight as I don't go to either UST or WM.

But, you keep stating the number of WM graduates being hired is stupid. Of course there are more WM graduated being hired than UST graduates; WM is nearly twice the size of UST. Just because more exist doesn't mean that those from WM have a better shot at jobs... it simply means there are more WM grads looking than UST grads.

As far as non-big law jobs, you said it yourself, it is all about networking. On the whole, the entire University of St. Thomas has many more grads in the workforce than does WM. So, networking may go in the favor of USt, not WM. Sure, there are more lawyers that went to WM, but given the overall quality of students from both schools being pretty equal, I'd imagine that a hiring attorney that went to WM would look at a UST and WM grad equally, so I'm not sure the WM degree is held in more regard than a UST degree.

Not to mention, most people in the place to even be hiring attorneys most likely went to law school prior to UST's existence as a law school, so it's not as if they chose WM (or any other school) over UST.


Let me put it this way - even accounting for the ratio difference, UST grads are not being hired at even close to the level that Mitchell is. I never said Mitchell grads are being hired in throngs (or, as you put it, "in stupid numbers"). What I am saying is that Mitchell crushes UST in the Twin Cities market if you're simply speaking relative to each other. That is simply a fact; I am not hypothesizing.

I've made these phone calls to these firms, had dozens of lunches, networking events, etc; I went through an exhaustive law school application and selection process, was flown to Florida to speak at the Law School Admission Council Forum, work at the national level for Kaplan Pre-Law programming, am in court day in and day out with these attorneys under the student practice rule, and am 35 days from a JD from University of MInnesota (read: not WM, not UST). Take my opinion for what its worth. Or don't; and go do the research I've done and see for yourself.


Better question is: Why, if you got to UM, would you even care about what UST and WM grads are doing?

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:17 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Better question is: Why, if you got to UM, would you even care about what UST and WM grads are doing?


Well, I work in this legal market, and I have friends and former students in law schools across the country. I care about what's happening with them and I stay in touch. Also - I did my research for my own application purposes and continue to advise prelaw students as they go through theirs'.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ThomasMN » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:48 pm

MidwestJosh wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:
Huh? I really have little stake in this row, but all indications point to the fact that both schools have practically the same quality of student body in terms of LSAT and GPA - if you discount WM's part-time program. The fact is that both schools have very similar student bodies. This is mostly a question of alumni base. UST has more of a presence in the state as a whole and William and Mitchell is better established in the legal community.


People need to put it out of their mind that the school name is going to get them a legal job. Outside big law, which I just described above, it's about networking. The bottom line is that Mitchell grads are being placed at a higher rate than UST grads. If you don't believe me, go to UST.

And there are qualitative differences in their class profiles. Despite pumping out ungodly amounts of money to try and buy their class, UST is still not caught up to matching Mitchell's profile.

By the way, UST is one of the only schools in the country still mass emailing and accepting applications in June/July. Take it for what's it's worth.


What I'm trying to point out is that the student profile for both schools is practically the same. Entering class profiles by way of each school's website:

UST Law: Median GPA 3.30 3.07/3.54 Median LSAT 156 153/161
WM (FT) : Median GPA 3.39 3.16/3.62 Median LSAT 155 150/159

I'm not trying to say one school is stronger than the other. What I AM pointing out is that both schools have an equally "weak" student profile. I see little evidence that points to Mitchell having a much stronger student body or vice versa. I do know that UST has a problem bringing in liberal students - they have a reputation for being conservative. I wouldn't recommend either school to anyone.

Also, from what is publicly available it seems as if both schools are in a dead heat in terms of employment failure. Neither school is anything close to a safe bet. What I don't seem to understand is your overwhelming desire to be "right" in this argument. I think that touting either UST or Mitchell over each other has the real possibility of leading potential students astray in believing that the victor in this duel is a good bet. The reality of the situation is that the "winner" here simply gets to crown itself the champion of the Minnesota TTTs. This all makes me a little depressed for Hamline grads.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:44 pm

ThomasMN wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:
Huh? I really have little stake in this row, but all indications point to the fact that both schools have practically the same quality of student body in terms of LSAT and GPA - if you discount WM's part-time program. The fact is that both schools have very similar student bodies. This is mostly a question of alumni base. UST has more of a presence in the state as a whole and William and Mitchell is better established in the legal community.


People need to put it out of their mind that the school name is going to get them a legal job. Outside big law, which I just described above, it's about networking. The bottom line is that Mitchell grads are being placed at a higher rate than UST grads. If you don't believe me, go to UST.

And there are qualitative differences in their class profiles. Despite pumping out ungodly amounts of money to try and buy their class, UST is still not caught up to matching Mitchell's profile.

By the way, UST is one of the only schools in the country still mass emailing and accepting applications in June/July. Take it for what's it's worth.


What I'm trying to point out is that the student profile for both schools is practically the same. Entering class profiles by way of each school's website:

UST Law: Median GPA 3.30 3.07/3.54 Median LSAT 156 153/161
WM (FT) : Median GPA 3.39 3.16/3.62 Median LSAT 155 150/159

I'm not trying to say one school is stronger than the other. What I AM pointing out is that both schools have an equally "weak" student profile. I see little evidence that points to Mitchell having a much stronger student body or vice versa. I do know that UST has a problem bringing in liberal students - they have a reputation for being conservative. I wouldn't recommend either school to anyone.

Also, from what is publicly available it seems as if both schools are in a dead heat in terms of employment failure. Neither school is anything close to a safe bet. What I don't seem to understand is your overwhelming desire to be "right" in this argument. I think that touting either UST or Mitchell over each other has the real possibility of leading potential students astray in believing that the victor in this duel is a good bet. The reality of the situation is that the "winner" here simply gets to crown itself the champion of the Minnesota TTTs. This all makes me a little depressed for Hamline grads.


The factor that your missing is actual knowledge of the Minnesota legal community. Pick up the phone and make the calls to recruiters. Look through the profiles of attorneys on firm websites, call prosecutors, public defenders, small law firms; have lunches, talk to current students at all four schools, visit classes. I have no desire to be right aside from the fact that I am right, and as an admissions consultant it is extremely frustrating that this site is a bunch of people who have no idea what they're talking about trying so adamantly to make assertions.

Further, your clear disrespect of schools outside the more highly ranked ones is also a signal of your predisposition on this issue. That, combined with your lack of any real knowledge on the matter aside from your own loosely constructed inferences is all the more reason why it is frustrating to sit back and watch you peddle your "advice" to prospective students. I've repeatedly called this site an echo-chamber of ignorance for precisely this reason.

If you'd like the names of current students and/or graduates at ANY of the four local schools to get started on gathering experiences of those who actually know this information, feel free to PM me and I can get you started. But stop arriving at conclusions with little more than passive speculation.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ThomasMN » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:10 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:
Huh? I really have little stake in this row, but all indications point to the fact that both schools have practically the same quality of student body in terms of LSAT and GPA - if you discount WM's part-time program. The fact is that both schools have very similar student bodies. This is mostly a question of alumni base. UST has more of a presence in the state as a whole and William and Mitchell is better established in the legal community.


People need to put it out of their mind that the school name is going to get them a legal job. Outside big law, which I just described above, it's about networking. The bottom line is that Mitchell grads are being placed at a higher rate than UST grads. If you don't believe me, go to UST.

And there are qualitative differences in their class profiles. Despite pumping out ungodly amounts of money to try and buy their class, UST is still not caught up to matching Mitchell's profile.

By the way, UST is one of the only schools in the country still mass emailing and accepting applications in June/July. Take it for what's it's worth.


What I'm trying to point out is that the student profile for both schools is practically the same. Entering class profiles by way of each school's website:

UST Law: Median GPA 3.30 3.07/3.54 Median LSAT 156 153/161
WM (FT) : Median GPA 3.39 3.16/3.62 Median LSAT 155 150/159

I'm not trying to say one school is stronger than the other. What I AM pointing out is that both schools have an equally "weak" student profile. I see little evidence that points to Mitchell having a much stronger student body or vice versa. I do know that UST has a problem bringing in liberal students - they have a reputation for being conservative. I wouldn't recommend either school to anyone.

Also, from what is publicly available it seems as if both schools are in a dead heat in terms of employment failure. Neither school is anything close to a safe bet. What I don't seem to understand is your overwhelming desire to be "right" in this argument. I think that touting either UST or Mitchell over each other has the real possibility of leading potential students astray in believing that the victor in this duel is a good bet. The reality of the situation is that the "winner" here simply gets to crown itself the champion of the Minnesota TTTs. This all makes me a little depressed for Hamline grads.


The factor that your missing is actual knowledge of the Minnesota legal community. Pick up the phone and make the calls to recruiters. Look through the profiles of attorneys on firm websites, call prosecutors, public defenders, small law firms; have lunches, talk to current students at all four schools, visit classes. I have no desire to be right aside from the fact that I am right, and as an admissions consultant it is extremely frustrating that this site is a bunch of people who have no idea what they're talking about trying so adamantly to make assertions.

Further, your clear disrespect of schools outside the more highly ranked ones is also a signal of your predisposition on this issue. That, combined with your lack of any real knowledge on the matter aside from your own loosely constructed inferences is all the more reason why it is frustrating to sit back and watch you peddle your "advice" to prospective students. I've repeatedly called this site an echo-chamber of ignorance for precisely this reason.


I know current students and graduates from all 4 law schools in Minnesota. Not one of them has had a glowing thing to say about going to law school in Minnesota. Admittedly, the WM students I know are a little more cavalier about their chances, but I know a lot of 3Ls at Mitchell with good grades (top 20% of their class) that really don't have anything great lined up. I have talked to all of the attorneys at the firm that I work at and every one of them is unhappy with their choice and their lot in the current legal market. How many years have you been practicing? Personally, I will take the advice of dozens of practicing attorneys at firms from the top to the bottom of the Twin Cities area over your "trust me, it's not that bad" line.

Would you really say that $150K for a William Mitchell is worth it? UST? Hamline? A full ride at WM over paying sticker at the U, debatable. That and you're an admissions consultant! How biased can you be?! I really hope you aren't charging an arm and a leg to students in the Twin Cities area.

But seriously, I know that you won't change your mind, which is fine with me. I was honestly not attempting to be disrespectful to any of the schools or attorneys in the Twin Cities area. I know that most of my friends from UST (undergrad) would or did pick WM over UST Law. I still wouldn't recommend either school to anyone at full-price.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:35 am

ThomasMN wrote:I know current students and graduates from all 4 law schools in Minnesota. Not one of them has had a glowing thing to say about going to law school in Minnesota. Admittedly, the WM students I know are a little more cavalier about their chances, but I know a lot of 3Ls at Mitchell with good grades (top 20% of their class) that really don't have anything great lined up. I have talked to all of the attorneys at the firm that I work at and every one of them is unhappy with their choice and their lot in the current legal market. How many years have you been practicing? Personally, I will take the advice of dozens of practicing attorneys at firms from the top to the bottom of the Twin Cities area over your "trust me, it's not that bad" line.

Would you really say that $150K for a William Mitchell is worth it? UST? Hamline? A full ride at WM over paying sticker at the U, debatable. That and you're an admissions consultant! How biased can you be?! I really hope you aren't charging an arm and a leg to students in the Twin Cities area.

But seriously, I know that you won't change your mind, which is fine with me. I was honestly not attempting to be disrespectful to any of the schools or attorneys in the Twin Cities area. I know that most of my friends from UST (undergrad) would or did pick WM over UST Law. I still wouldn't recommend either school to anyone at full-price.


I'm not about to sit and defend my credentials any further, especially now that you're going on the personal attack. I've spent far too much time on this forum today and we clearly have different perspectives. My best friend, for example goes to Mitchell and has a big law job lined up at Briggs and Morgan. Another friend went to Mitchell, graduated last year and is at Dorsey (http://www.dorsey.com/weinbeck_michael/). I could continue here with personal anecdotes, talk about the 650+ students I've worked with, and the lawyers, recruiters and judges who've agree with me. But I'm going to leave forum readers with this: Quit making decisions based off of this forum. Get out there and do some substantive research. The judge who dismissed the lawsuit against NYLS today slammed students for being clueless. Eliciting advice from this forum is hardly a notch above clueless. Best of luck.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:46 am

Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby Tanicius » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:57 am

MidwestJosh wrote:I'm not about to sit and defend my credentials any further, especially now that you're going on the personal attack. I've spent far too much time on this forum today and we clearly have different perspectives. My best friend, for example goes to Mitchell and has a big law job lined up at Briggs and Morgan. Another friend went to Mitchell, graduated last year and is at Dorsey (http://www.dorsey.com/[name deleted]). I could continue here with personal anecdotes, talk about the 650+ students I've worked with, and the lawyers, recruiters and judges who've agree with me. But I'm going to leave forum readers with this: Quit making decisions based off of this forum. Get out there and do some substantive research. The judge who dismissed the lawsuit against NYLS today slammed students for being clueless. Eliciting advice from this forum is hardly a notch above clueless. Best of luck.



I'm generally of the position that WM is a much under-ranked school, but here you're stretching anecdotes way too far. The dude you linked to at Dorsey is pretty much a rock star. I remember reading his law review article back in my undergrad days when I interned at a legal clinic at Mitchell over a summer. Top grades, literally a decade of work experience, an externship with a US District Court's chief judge? Dude come on. (BTW, might want to erase his name on this public forum.)

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:25 am

Tanicius wrote:I'm generally of the position that WM is a much under-ranked school, but here you're stretching anecdotes way too far. The dude you linked to at Dorsey is pretty much a rock star. I remember reading his law review article back in my undergrad days when I interned at a legal clinic at Mitchell over a summer. Top grades, literally a decade of work experience, an externship with a US District Court's chief judge? Dude come on. (BTW, might want to erase his name on this public forum.)


There's no reason to erase his name. And of course it's anecdotal, but I've been abundantly clear that I'm basing my opinion on a lot more than anecdotes.

birdlaw117 wrote:Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.


Last I checked this thread was about MN schools in the MN legal market. That's what we were debating. So i'm not clear what you're driving at.

It's quite something how anyone who presents an alternative view to the pervasively negative and arrogant perspective that law school sucks unless it's t14 or free, or that all "TTT"s are the same, etc is constantly attacked on this site. What's worse is that I'm the only one bringing references and facts to the table. I've been using TLS for a long time, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it never changes.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MNbound » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:46 am

We can argue back and forth about which is better, WM or UST but I think its pretty obvious to anyone that any school, even a T1 school like UMN isn't worth 150K in debt. Even if you did get at 120k job right off the bad and stayed in biglaw, it would still take a really long time to pay off your debt. This thread is really only useful if you got multiple full ride or close to full ride offers from WM and UST (which was true in my case) and then its kind of a wash. Assuming you have a full ride and graduate near the top of the class at either one of them and do some networking, your probably going to get at least a 50-60k small firm job with much less debt, which I think is a favorable outcome to big debt and Biglaw.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:04 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.


Last I checked this thread was about MN schools in the MN legal market. That's what we were debating. So i'm not clear what you're driving at.

It's quite something how anyone who presents an alternative view to the pervasively negative and arrogant perspective that law school sucks unless it's t14 or free, or that all "TTT"s are the same, etc is constantly attacked on this site. What's worse is that I'm the only one bringing references and facts to the table. I've been using TLS for a long time, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it never changes.

First off, I think we have a different definition of debating. You're arguing. Which is not productive.

And don't say you're the only one bringing facts to the table. That's both untrue and shows that you aren't willing to have a real discussion and you just want to spew some bullshit. Also, your "facts" are pretty much all anecdotal, which are wholly unverifiable on an anonymous forum. And I know your response is going to be that you linked to a particular person (which is really douchey), but all that says is you can go to a firm website and find a grad. Obviously that's going to be the case.

So again, thanks for fucking this up. I'm not going to participate in a "debate" with you beyond this because that would be counter-productive.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:25 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.


Last I checked this thread was about MN schools in the MN legal market. That's what we were debating. So i'm not clear what you're driving at.

It's quite something how anyone who presents an alternative view to the pervasively negative and arrogant perspective that law school sucks unless it's t14 or free, or that all "TTT"s are the same, etc is constantly attacked on this site. What's worse is that I'm the only one bringing references and facts to the table. I've been using TLS for a long time, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it never changes.

First off, I think we have a different definition of debating. You're arguing. Which is not productive.

And don't say you're the only one bringing facts to the table. That's both untrue and shows that you aren't willing to have a real discussion and you just want to spew some bullshit. Also, your "facts" are pretty much all anecdotal, which are wholly unverifiable on an anonymous forum. And I know your response is going to be that you linked to a particular person (which is really douchey), but all that says is you can go to a firm website and find a grad. Obviously that's going to be the case.

So again, thanks for fucking this up. I'm not going to participate in a "debate" with you beyond this because that would be counter-productive
.


180.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:26 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Well, this thread turned into a shit-show. Thanks for fucking up a useful thread for others.


Last I checked this thread was about MN schools in the MN legal market. That's what we were debating. So i'm not clear what you're driving at.

It's quite something how anyone who presents an alternative view to the pervasively negative and arrogant perspective that law school sucks unless it's t14 or free, or that all "TTT"s are the same, etc is constantly attacked on this site. What's worse is that I'm the only one bringing references and facts to the table. I've been using TLS for a long time, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it never changes.

First off, I think we have a different definition of debating. You're arguing. Which is not productive.

And don't say you're the only one bringing facts to the table. That's both untrue and shows that you aren't willing to have a real discussion and you just want to spew some bullshit. Also, your "facts" are pretty much all anecdotal, which are wholly unverifiable on an anonymous forum. And I know your response is going to be that you linked to a particular person (which is really douchey), but all that says is you can go to a firm website and find a grad. Obviously that's going to be the case.

So again, thanks for fucking this up. I'm not going to participate in a "debate" with you beyond this because that would be counter-productive
.


I think when I posted this, I was actually thinking more about this thread, which has actually been a shit show: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180756

And your hostility is a bit much, for the record.

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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:51 pm

MidwestJosh wrote:And your hostility is a bit much, for the record.

Cool bro. I'll make a note of it. Now can we please let this get back to being a productive thread?

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MidwestJosh
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Re: The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc

Postby MidwestJosh » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:05 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:And your hostility is a bit much, for the record.

Cool bro. I'll make a note of it. Now can we please let this get back to being a productive thread?


haha.

Considering part of the discussion is regarding whether WM or UST gives you better chances in the MN market, it is entirely appropriate to be raising opinions of which school does so. So what are you getting at in terms of "productive"? Or was that simply a passive aggressive slight? (which would be fitting in MN, I suppose).

In any event, I really have to agree with an above poster about how unfortunate it is that Hamline isn't even part of the discussion anymore. Once upon a time, Hamline Law had a solid reputation in this market.




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