The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[El Dangeroso]

Numbers just get you a spot in the game, my friend, and don't mean anything after that.

And obviously I'm a student. But do I have an interest in getting quality students to come to my school? Well ya. Appeal to ego? Sure, it's effective buddy-boy. Logic is for the LSAT and Property class.

At least you openly admit you are full of shit.

I am just kind of bored. But, I honestly do believe you should have to perform and meet a certain cut off in order to keep your scholarship. Yes, Iowa's stipulation is very high, but if an individual is comfortable with assuming that risk, and they understand the difficulty in attaining a nearly top-third rank, then there is nothing predatory in setting that stipulation. I'm not naive enough to think that every incoming law student takes the stipulation under consideration...but everyone should to be a responsible consumer and realize the difficulty in this endeavor before accepting a scholarship. That's a normative statement...but so be it. But the other guy is probably right...this person has surely made his decision by now.

[bjsesq]

Numbers just get you a spot in the game, my friend, and don't mean anything after that.

And obviously I'm a student. But do I have an interest in getting quality students to come to my school? Well ya. Appeal to ego? Sure, it's effective buddy-boy. Logic is for the LSAT and Property class.

At least you openly admit you are full of shit.

I am just kind of bored. But, I honestly do believe you should have to perform and meet a certain cut off in order to keep your scholarship. Yes, Iowa's stipulation is very high, but if an individual is comfortable with assuming that risk, and they understand the difficulty in attaining a nearly top-third rank, then there is nothing predatory in setting that stipulation. I'm not naive enough to think that every incoming law student takes the stipulation under consideration...but everyone should to be a responsible consumer and realize the difficulty in this endeavor before accepting a scholarship. That's a normative statement...but so be it. But the other guy is probably right...this person has surely made his decision by now.

Were Iowa's stipulation not so ridiculous, I would probably be at your school now. I went to a school that had no stipulations on the money, and I was better off. Assuming equal placement, I would have placed high enough to keep it anyway, but there is something to be said about the lack of good faith a school shows when it trusts you enough to throw a ton of cash at you, but not enough to let you keep getting it without some hoops.

As far as your assumptions that make Iowa's policy non-predatory: what sort of prospective law student, who has likely succeeded their entire academic career, can truly appreciate the difficulties of placing in the top 1/3? How can a person truly gauge that chance? I don't think Iowa acknowledges that shortcoming, rather, I think they depend on it. Less scholarship payout=more money for the school to attract more students with higher data points for the US News. It seems dishonest. It's truly unfortunate too, because Iowa is a damn good school, imo.

[El Dangeroso]

Numbers just get you a spot in the game, my friend, and don't mean anything after that.

And obviously I'm a student. But do I have an interest in getting quality students to come to my school? Well ya. Appeal to ego? Sure, it's effective buddy-boy. Logic is for the LSAT and Property class.

At least you openly admit you are full of shit.

I am just kind of bored. But, I honestly do believe you should have to perform and meet a certain cut off in order to keep your scholarship. Yes, Iowa's stipulation is very high, but if an individual is comfortable with assuming that risk, and they understand the difficulty in attaining a nearly top-third rank, then there is nothing predatory in setting that stipulation. I'm not naive enough to think that every incoming law student takes the stipulation under consideration...but everyone should to be a responsible consumer and realize the difficulty in this endeavor before accepting a scholarship. That's a normative statement...but so be it. But the other guy is probably right...this person has surely made his decision by now.

Were Iowa's stipulation not so ridiculous, I would probably be at your school now. I went to a school that had no stipulations on the money, and I was better off. Assuming equal placement, I would have placed high enough to keep it anyway, but there is something to be said about the lack of good faith a school shows when it trusts you enough to throw a ton of cash at you, but not enough to let you keep getting it without some hoops.

As far as your assumptions that make Iowa's policy non-predatory: what sort of prospective law student, who has likely succeeded their entire academic career, can truly appreciate the difficulties of placing in the top 1/3? How can a person truly gauge that chance? I don't think Iowa acknowledges that shortcoming, rather, I think they depend on it. Less scholarship payout=more money for the school to attract more students with higher data points for the US News. It seems dishonest. It's truly unfortunate too, because Iowa is a damn good school, imo.

I apologize for completely moving the subject away from the Minnie market.

You have a fair point. And I admit that not every incoming student is going to appropriately consider the difficulty in attaining a top third rank, especially because it is an entirely unfamiliar academic terrain, and it is hard to gauge future performance like you said. But, there is also something to be said about being an educated consumer. It's not like admissions officers aren't available to talk to students and can relay the facts that I highlighted above (25% lost it first year, then an addition 25%). I was fortunate to know a few people in the school ahead of me so I could ask them about the difficulty in attaining such a rank. So again, yes its hard to judge, and eventually you are taking a risk with imperfect information. But you take a risk going to any school.

But ultimately if an incoming student is just so cocksure and brazen in their ability to outperform 2/3rds of a class of smart kids, and doesn't stop and consider the possibility that they aren't hot shit, then I don't feel bad about them losing their money. Whether Iowa depends on people like this, I can't say. They could surely be more upfront about this issue. But show me a law school that doesn't act deceptively. People need to understand what they are getting themselves into. Obviously you took everything under consideration and made a different choice.

[midwestlawstudent]

Cool, guys. Anyway, I hope the OP will still answer our questions.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

I have limited, but existing, ties to MN. What's the best way to demonstrate that I really want to be there to practice? (I really do). Besides just saying that, I'm not really sure how to get it across.

The first step is to make sure it is clear that you have ties to Minnesota on your resume. Otherwise, the firms will never know (especially if you're going through OCI). Once you get the interview, just be ready for the "Why Minnesota" question.

How do MN firms look at journals that are not law review? Favorably?

Very favorably. A generic law review is obviously better, but any journal is looked upon favorably, as does moot court if you want to do litigation.

At OCI, is it best to specify a practice area? Or typically since MN firms are a bit smaller, is it best to be open to more areas? I am interested in transactional more than litigation, but don't want to pigeon-hole myself out of a job.

If you are looking at Robins or another lit heavy firm, then you'll want to specify why you want to do lit. At the bigger full-service firms, it is good to say you want a summer experience where you will have opportunities to touch on a variety of practice areas. The exception would be if you want to do IP, which there is great demand for in MN (if you have a hard science background).

Lastly, do you know anything about Winthrop and what type of candidate they look for? Grades, etc.

Winthrop is similar to many other midsized firms. They are fairly conservative, but from a T14 you should be fine if you're in the top 1/3, maybe top 1/2.

Keep in mind, getting a position can be fairly subjective. It isn't all about the numbers, as someone else said. You'll want to interview with as many firms as possible just in case you have a bad interview somewhere or you end up not connecting with the interviewer.

[rickgrimes69]

How do MN firms look at journals that are not law review? Favorably?

Very favorably. A generic law review is obviously better, but any journal is looked upon favorably, as does moot court if you want to do litigation.

Is there truth to the statement that firms only care about moot court if you compete well?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

How do MN firms look at journals that are not law review? Favorably?

Very favorably. A generic law review is obviously better, but any journal is looked upon favorably, as does moot court if you want to do litigation.

Is there truth to the statement that firms only care about moot court if you compete well?

We only care that you gained some experience doing moot court. The better you do, the more favorable we'll look upon your experience, but no one is going to judge you based on your performance before we've had a chance to actually train you.

[MNbound]

This was posted in the U of M application page but its very applicable here as well.

http://www.startribune.com/featuredColu ... 00916.html

[umnumnumn]

my girlfriend is top 10% and LR at UMN. do you think she will have her pick from among the big firms in MPLS?

[UndecidedMN]

Hello,

I am currently accepted as a transfer student at U of M. I am currently a student at William Mitchell on a scholarship. Is it worth it to transfer? The money will be about the same between the two (maybe 10K more at U).. Is there a greater prestige at the U? I will probably be in the twin cities metro area looking for a job, however I may look beyond it. My grades are very good, top 15%. Just wondering the pros and cons and need to decide if it is really worth it to transfer.

Thanks in advance, I really am having a tough time with this.

[rickgrimes69]

Hello,

I am currently accepted as a transfer student at U of M. I am currently a student at William Mitchell on a scholarship. Is it worth it to transfer? The money will be about the same between the two (maybe 10K more at U).. Is there a greater prestige at the U? I will probably be in the twin cities metro area looking for a job, however I may look beyond it. My grades are very good, top 15%. Just wondering the pros and cons and need to decide if it is really worth it to transfer.

Thanks in advance, I really am having a tough time with this.

If cost is equal, it's a no brainer - UM is the Twin Cities' bread and butter. You still probably can't take it far outside the Tri-state area but it'll certainly get you farther than WM.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

umnumnumn - She should be fine. She'll get interviews, so I would suggest she start practicing and preparing for questions. Most schools have mock interview programs or you could help her out. LR at UMinn is decent to get you a good firm job at one of the top Minn firms.

UndecidedMN - I would transfer, but keep cost in mind. Realistically, you'll be in state and only pay tuition for two years. Minnesota is a significantly better school than WM, which is probably the third best school in the region and has a reputation in biglaw to match (great if you want to do small law though; small firms are filled with WM grads from the 90s). I would definitely make the move. In doing so, your first goal should be to see if you can still write on a journal and to meet with career services regarding OCI and how it works for transfer students.

[stephencolbert]

[quote="MinnesotaBigLaw11"]umnumnumn - She should be fine. She'll get interviews, so I would suggest she start practicing and preparing for questions. Most schools have mock interview programs or you could help her out. LR at UMinn is decent to get you a good firm job at one of the top Minn firms.

Biglaw - thanks for taking questions. How about LR w/median grades at Minny?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

umnumnumn - She should be fine. She'll get interviews, so I would suggest she start practicing and preparing for questions. Most schools have mock interview programs or you could help her out. LR at UMinn is decent to get you a good firm job at one of the top Minn firms.

Biglaw - thanks for taking questions. How about LR w/median grades at Minny?

It gets harder the lower your grades are. You want to be in the top 20% for one of the top four or five firms. But there are plenty of midlaw and inhouse places an LR editor should be able to get interviews regardless of grades being near the median. It can be tough but the market is turning around. The last few years I would have said to really start networking and rely on that. I still think that is good advice but OCI may still be useful if you at least have LR.

[FourOnTheFloor]

How about those at UMN who didn't make law review but are on a secondary journal with grades in the top 25%?

[dusk2k2]

If you have law review and median grades, you won't get biglaw unless you are a URM or you had a biglaw job during your 1L summer. Sure, you should still apply, but you will 99% not get the job in this economy.

Top 25% without law review has a shot at biglaw, but its no guarantee. If you have a science background, you'll be fine. If no science background, you better mass mail like crazy to every market you have any sort of ties in and hustle to get every interview possible. DO NOT JUST RELY ON OCI OR YOU WILL GET BURNED!

[cahwc12]

Can you elaborate on science background?

I qualify for and plan to take the patent bar next spring before 1L, but my degree officially is in political science. I also don't have a concentration in any specific hard science program (scattered across biology, chemistry, physics). Would this put me at an advantage, disadvantage, or would it not really matter so long as I qualify for the patent bar?

[omg clay aiken !]

what's market rate for minneapolis biglaw?

[dougroberts]

what's market rate for minneapolis biglaw?

Between $100,000 to $120,000 + bonuses. Most of the biggest MN law firms pay $110,000, though I think one or two pay $120,000 (Winthrop?). Nearly all of the midsize firms (70-100 lawyers) pay $100,000.

Patent lawyers are paid higher at some firms then the above.

[Nova]

what's market rate for minneapolis biglaw?

Between $100,000 to $120,000 + bonuses. Most of the biggest MN law firms pay $110,000, though I think one or two pay $120,000 (Winthrop?). Nearly all of the midsize firms (70-100 lawyers) pay $100,000.

Patent lawyers are paid higher at some firms then the above.

Would happen to know about how many SAs are available in Mpls each year?

How about how many entry level jobs at 100,000+ are available in Mpls each year?

What is the breakdown on who gets these entry level jobs? Locals who went to T14s? A good amount of UMN kids? a few from the WM/StT/H?

(these questions are open to anyone with insight, not just DR)

[dru617]

what's market rate for minneapolis biglaw?

Most of the biggest MN law firms pay $110,000, though I think one or two pay $120,000 (Winthrop?).

And Briggs.

[omg clay aiken !]

do winthrop and/or briggs pay clerkship bonuses?

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Would happen to know about how many SAs are available in Mpls each year?

I wouldn't in total. You can review NALP Directory to see how many each particular firm had last year, but it is very difficult to see the amount of positions at smaller firms and government/corporate positions.

How about how many entry level jobs at 100,000+ are available in Mpls each year?

There are probably around 10-15 law firms that are paying entry level associates between $110-120k per year. I don't have a good handle on what the in-house corporate positions pay, but usually they don't pay as much as law firms. Government positions rarely pay salaries in this high in MN.

What is the breakdown on who gets these entry level jobs? Locals who went to T14s? A good amount of UMN kids? a few from the WM/StT/H?

At the top two or three firms, a majority of the summers will be from UMinn, but you'll have a handful of T-14s, a few from the big name coastal schools USC/UCLA/BC/BU/GW, two or three from UST, and typically the top one or two students from Hamline or Mitchell.

Note that this isn't the case for all law firms, but it is typical for the top firms.

do winthrop and/or briggs pay clerkship bonuses?
I believe Briggs pays a clerkship bonus.

what's market rate for minneapolis biglaw?
There really aren't any biglaw firms in Minneapolis. The largest five firms aren't considered biglaw by most in the industry, and they pay significantly under market compared to their coastal counterparts. Please don't expect market pay (160k) in MN. You'll be disappointed. That being said, firms in MN start at around 110-120k per year and typically increase a few thousand dollars a year as an associate progresses. Bonuses depend on performance and hours billed, as well as class year.

I qualify for and plan to take the patent bar next spring before 1L, but my degree officially is in political science. I also don't have a concentration in any specific hard science program (scattered across biology, chemistry, physics). Would this put me at an advantage, disadvantage, or would it not really matter so long as I qualify for the patent bar?

I don't believe you can take the Patent bar with a Poli Sci degree, but you should do some research on that. I may be wrong.

[cahwc12]

According to this, there are several alternative means to qualify for the patent bar, two of which I will qualify for under (1 and 4). I'm just slightly worried that my lack of an actual science degree will be a turn off.

In regards to hiring new patent lawyers, do firms favor specialization or would a breadth of upper level science courses look better?

Second, unless i'm looking at things incorrectly, according to this cost of living calculator, $110,000/yr starting salary in Minneapolis is worth more than $160,000/yr in Manhattan ($177,450). Does this seem to hold true at all?

Also thank you very much for doing this Q&A! So much of this information is invaluable!

[Pathika]

I have limited, but existing, ties to MN. What's the best way to demonstrate that I really want to be there to practice? (I really do). Besides just saying that, I'm not really sure how to get it across.

The first step is to make sure it is clear that you have ties to Minnesota on your resume. Otherwise, the firms will never know (especially if you're going through OCI). Once you get the interview, just be ready for the "Why Minnesota" question.

I've read through all of the posts and I have not seen where my specific question was addressed, and it relates to the red text above...

I go to a Midwest T14, but have never lived in MSP, but have visited, etc... I like the area and my wife was born in/raised there, though she went out of state for college and hasn't been back since she started college. Obviously, I can't put this on my resume, but would a solid cover letter outlining the fact that my wife is from MSP and we would like to settle down there be enough to grab the attention of any firms, specifically those that do not interview on-campus?