The Minnesota Legal Market - UMN, WM, UST, HM, Iowa/Wisc Forum

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

MnBigLaw11- Thanks again for answering our questions!

Even if your firm doesn't handle it, what can you tell me about health law practice in MN? Is it growing, etc.? I'm thinking about a JD/MPH degree...

[Suzy_29]

I was wondering how international students from UMN or Wisconsin Madison do in the market. Is a lack of ties anywhere in the US problematic?

[UndecidedMN]

How are clerkships looked upon when hiring? Is it a positive or negative if one year after law school you worked as a clerk instead of working with a firm?

Also what do you think of applying for law review as a 3L? Obviously there would be no chance to move on as an editor. Is law review that important?

Thank you

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Federal clerkships are highly regarded. A cerkship with a state supreme court is also highly regarded. Clerkships at the lower state court levels are not as highly regarded but may be for smaller firms.

Law review is very well regarded. If you have an opportunity, you should always volunteer on law review, whether it is the generic law review or a specialized law review.

International students are typically treated the same as other US students from UMN and Wisconsin.

Health law is a very good specialization in Minneapolis. There is a large healthcare legal practice in Minnesota, as well as a large medical device practice.

[Suzy_29]

Federal clerkships are highly regarded. A cerkship with a state supreme court is also highly regarded. Clerkships at the lower state court levels are not as highly regarded but may be for smaller firms.

Law review is very well regarded. If you have an opportunity, you should always volunteer on law review, whether it is the generic law review or a specialized law review.

International students are typically treated the same as other US students from UMN and Wisconsin.

Health law is a very good specialization in Minneapolis. There is a large healthcare legal practice in Minnesota, as well as a large medical device practice.

Thanks for the response! I do have one more question, how important are ties? Is say a Canadian student without any ties in the US seen as a flight risk?

[anonhwk]

could you comment on UMN vs WM vs UST for future employment prospects? All of the info I can find on TLS seems outdated. UST seems to be making strides and I'd like to know an insider's opinion on where they might stand in 2016. I'd be going to one of these 3 schools and practicing in the Twin Cities market long term. I'm concerned about UMN because it costs more and the student body is more competitive, meaning getting a high class rank would be more challenging. I don't have a specific career interest but want to keep large MN firms as an option. Thoughts?

As someone who transferred from UST to a top 25 school, I would say do not go there unless offered a substantial scholarship. The difference in career opportunities I have now are night and day, and I have a really nice gig lined up that I wouldn't have gotten if I didn't transfer. I'm not suggesting that UST does not have great students or faculty, because they do. However, I thought careers services left something to be desired considering that their students are making a substantial investment in attending. If you want to be in a larger/midsize firm it will be a uphill battle. That said, if public interest is what you want then UST isn't a bad option if your debt is low. It's a tough job market anywhere, but taking out $150K at UST to make $60K at graduation is a foolish investment: --LinkRemoved--.

If WM throws you more money, I would go there. WM is right behind the U for a legal alumni base in Minnesota, so it might be easier to meaningfully network for a position post graduation compared to UST. While UST preaches networking, you have to remember that fellow alumni tend to look after their own, and at this point UST doesn't have many alumni in a position to hire students (i.e. large/midsize law partners, judges) while WM does. I noticed this during my 1L summer associateship for what its worth. Also, the Mentor Externship at UST, in my opinion, is largely a formality for most students. While you get to see your "mentor" in actual law practice during 1L, it doesn't necessarily lead to a job.

Personal anecdote: At an OCI interview with a large MSP firm this past fall (Dorsey/Faegre/Fredrickson), the partner interviewing me told me that in 5 years of doing OCI she had never interviewed at student from UST. While I'm sure this isn't the case all the time, it made me grateful that I decided to transfer law schools. Feel free to PM with any questions.

[NIUmelk]

Thank you for all of your valuable information!

I was wondering what U of MN's national reputation is like. I'm from Chicago, and I really don't mind where I end up. I have family in both the Midwest, Southwest, and West Coast. Would I have a good chance of landing a decent (80K<x) in any of these regions?

[ehshornet]

Thank you for all of your valuable information!

I was wondering what U of MN's national reputation is like. I'm from Chicago, and I really don't mind where I end up. I have family in both the Midwest, Southwest, and West Coast. Would I have a good chance of landing a decent (80K<x) in any of these regions?

I secured Chicago ($160k) having no prior connections. Another one of my classmates who is graduating with me (and who is not from Chicago) is doing the same. However, both of us are going into patent law with science undergraduate and advanced degrees.

Regarding UMN's network, I think it is pretty big. What is nice is that you have a huge undergrad alum base as well from the U of M (even if you did not go to the U of M for undergrad). I am from the east coast and went to a school out there on the east coast, and I networked and secured interviews with attorneys with U of M undergrad degrees but different law school degrees. Saying something like reaching out to a fellow golden gopher is all you need to do. Then you can recollect the attorney's experiences over lunch or coffee while living in the city or being on the East/West bank, etc.

For what it is worth, I had call back interviews my 1L, 2L and 3L years in CA (SF & LA), Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, and DC. Again, I had something to offer to the table (science background). Make sure you do as well. If you think you are going to be hard to market in the event you fall outside of the the top 25%, you might consider attending a lower ranked school in the market you actually could see yourself working in.

Just some food for thought. Feel free to PM if you have additional questions.

[Tanicius]

I secured Chicago ($160k) having no prior connections. Another one of my classmates who is graduating with me (and who is not from Chicago) is doing the same. However, both of us are going into patent law with science undergraduate and advanced degrees.

This can't be overemphasized enough. I have personally never heard of a student in the T-25 with a science background not getting a patent biglaw job if they wanted one. These types of students are competing on an entirely different playing field than everyone else. A science background student at almost any Tier 1 school stands a better chance of getting biglaw than a median non-science background student at a T-10.

[UndecidedMN]

Hello,

Just was wondering the best way to try and apply to biglaw firms as a 3L. As a late transfer I missed OCI and took a job as a clinic director for the summer. Thanks for any info. Grades are very good overall, probably top 20% (UMN) with some softs.

[mkemmitt]

Hi all,
I'm a 0L going to UWisc in the fall. I want to come back to the twin cities during my 1L summer to a mid or big firm. I know a lot of firms don't take on 1Ls, making the openings even more competitive. Do I need to be in the top 20% to even have a chance at firms like FBD or D&W? I have a good connection at Leonard as well.
Thanks for any and all input.

[Sammy841]

Hi all,
I'm a 0L going to UWisc in the fall. I want to come back to the twin cities during my 1L summer to a mid or big firm. I know a lot of firms don't take on 1Ls, making the openings even more competitive. Do I need to be in the top 20% to even have a chance at firms like FBD or D&W? I have a good connection at Leonard as well.
Thanks for any and all input.

My very limited experience w/this as a 1L who mass applied to the big MSP firms was that most firms have btw 1-3 1L summers and they use these slots almost exclusively for attracting kids from t-14 law schools. (Esp kids with ties to the area that will return as 2L's.) I'm at a t-10 and did call-backs w/4 firms. I got offers/rejections from all before I even got my first semester grades back. In other words, they seem to be looking for the law school name over grades. You may have a chance if you went to a prestigious undergrad, or if you can work your connections. Otherwise I wouldn't bother w/firms, but just try to get an internship in MSP to show your commitment to the area for OCI for 2L summer.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

It has been a while, so below are a few responses to the questions posed:

1L Recruiting
1L recruiting is very difficult in Minnesota, particularly if you aren’t from one of the T14 schools or a big-name coastal school that is just outside (USC/UCLA, BC/BU). Typically, 1L recruiting is used to gain favor with soon-to-be 2Ls who will likely have offers from top national firms, so the big Minnesota firms try to persuade them before 2L recruiting. As such, 1Ls from local schools rarely get 1L summer associate positions barring some kind of special program or diversity initiative.

3L Recruiting
3L recruiting cam be tough, but every year the large firms evaluate their needs and often decide they may need to replace a 2L summer associate who decided to clerk or go to another firm. You just need to demonstrate that you have improved your grades and that you developed some good experience over your 2L summer. To be honest, it is hit or miss with law firms. However, local companies will often do their recruiting through 3L OCI, so don’t overlook going inhouse.

Patent
Patent positions are very hard to fill, so if you have a hard science degree, you won’t need to be as high in the class as someone without one. I have heard that informational interviews are a great way to network a position at a large firm in the patent world, as it is a more insular community within the bar.
UST vs. WM
This debate has been going on for some time. As someone who regularly recommends and interviews law students, I see UST and WM as peer schools, although my large firm does seem to hire more UST students than WM students for summer associate positions. Note that this may not mean anything in particular and also note that by more, I only mean one or two summers more. Really, they aren’t all that different from a biglaw hiring perspective. This may be different for smaller more regional firms in the area.

Ties
Ties are very important in Minnesota. It is similar to some other midsized markets in that way. You aren’t getting a summer associate position in town without some sort of connection to the area, whether it be through family, undergraduate or graduate degrees (including law school). All candidates should always emphasize why they want to work in town on their resume, cover letter and be prepared from the question in interviews.

[chrisbru]

Hey there,

I am a 3L at a non-Minnesota T50 school. Top third, secondary journal and journal board, two summers at civil litigation firms between 5-20 attorneys, and will have two semesters of clinic (one misdemeanor criminal defense and one TBD) when I graduate. I have been focusing on my hometown secondary market, but my girlfriend has recently decided to apply to a doctoral program at U of M. If she gets in, that means 5 years in Minneapolis minimum, likely longer. I also have several friends in the area, but no family. My questions:

1) Are these sufficient ties? Girlfriend will likely turn into fiance assuming we can finagle being in the same city come August 2014.
2) How can I properly phrase my connection to and desire to be in the city, especially considering she won't know for sure if she is in until February?
3) What is the timeline for TC firms for hiring? I'd ideally like to be in civil litigation. I'm interested in any size firm, but would prefer to be in the 10-50 attorney range.
4) Are there any in-house type places that hire straight from law school? Although I'd prefer litigation, I was a finance major in undergrad and have a few years doing finance work for big corporations.

Basically, how do I get hired in Minnesota in the private market?

Thanks for all your advice, btw. I just found this thread, but will be going back through and reading through all of it.

[MinnesotaBigLaw11]

Hey there,

I am a 3L at a non-Minnesota T50 school. Top third, secondary journal and journal board, two summers at civil litigation firms between 5-20 attorneys, and will have two semesters of clinic (one misdemeanor criminal defense and one TBD) when I graduate. I have been focusing on my hometown secondary market, but my girlfriend has recently decided to apply to a doctoral program at U of M. If she gets in, that means 5 years in Minneapolis minimum, likely longer. I also have several friends in the area, but no family. My questions:

1) Are these sufficient ties? Girlfriend will likely turn into fiance assuming we can finagle being in the same city come August 2014.
2) How can I properly phrase my connection to and desire to be in the city, especially considering she won't know for sure if she is in until February?
3) What is the timeline for TC firms for hiring? I'd ideally like to be in civil litigation. I'm interested in any size firm, but would prefer to be in the 10-50 attorney range.
4) Are there any in-house type places that hire straight from law school? Although I'd prefer litigation, I was a finance major in undergrad and have a few years doing finance work for big corporations.

Basically, how do I get hired in Minnesota in the private market?

Thanks for all your advice, btw. I just found this thread, but will be going back through and reading through all of it.

There are a number of companies that hire law students right out of law school, but getting those positions can be difficult if you aren't going through a typical OCI program. You should research the area and the local companies (NALP may be helpful), learn who the right contacts are and start networking and applying for positions.

For law firms, you can use NALP and apply directly with a cover letter and resume to the appropriate hiring contact listed for the office. You should try networking if you can.

Ultimately, there is no magic method to finding a job in Minneapolis versus other markets. It is all about networking, who you know, how much experience and what type of experience you have.

[Jchance]

Not sure if anyone noticed, but most of Minnesota firms raised its starting salary to $120k.
Examples. Merchant & Gould $125k, Briggs & Morgan $120k, Shumaker & Sieffert $120k.

Source:
http://www.infirmation.com/shared/searc ... inneapolis
NALP Directory for 2014

[UVAIce]

A lot of those are firms trying to compete with the larger MN law firms for recruits. I think it's an attempt to try and snag up the better students in the Twin Cities legal market.

One thing I will say that is almost deceptive is that few of the MN firms are transparent about pay raises and bonuses. The thing that disappointed me the most about the MN legal market is not the starting salary, but the fact that the pay raises were such that at a lot of firms at 6th or 7th year associate doesn't make as much as an entry level associate in the major markets (or even a lot of the bigger secondary markets).

[midwestlawstudent]

Re starting salary, those firms were already at that level and that chart is from like 2007/pre recession. Most are still at $110,000 starting.

[Jchance]

Re starting salary, those firms were already at that level and that chart is from like 2007/pre recession. Most are still at $110,000 starting.

I see. I was browsing NALP Directory for 2014 and saw a few firms' salary at $120k+, which got me excited for a sec.

[UVAIce]

I do know that Briggs is at 120K.

[The Dark Shepard]

I actually was looking at this topic a few days ago before it got necro'd. Interesting.

[secadc11]

As a homegrown Minnesotan, tag/bump for this cycle... would love to see this thread revived.

[chrisbru]

As a homegrown Minnesotan, tag/bump for this cycle... would love to see this thread revived.

This thread, much like the Minnesota legal market, cannot be revived.

[valen]

As a homegrown Minnesotan, tag/bump for this cycle... would love to see this thread revived.

This thread, much like the Minnesota legal market, cannot be revived.

I've heard this from many people, but can you explain a little about why the MN market is so bad? Just over saturated with students? Not enough firms? No hiring?

[secadc11]

What about rumors of Hamline closing? Is this true/on the horizon? Could it improve the market?