Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

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Nogameisfair
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Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:23 pm

Just figured I would answer any questions on the curriculum, social life, clinics, or employment prospects.

To give some context, some tidbits about me:
1) I went to a large public undergrad,
2) I worked for a couple years in a U.S. Attorney's Office before LS,
3) I took the alternative curriculum (curriculum B) during first year,
4) I'm on a secondary journal,
5) I'm in one of the less popular clinics,
6) I'm nearly intoxicated on a weeknight....

So, I've had a mostly positive experience, but I'm definitely open to talking about any of Georgetown's issues (and we definitely have our share). Ask away.

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Kabuo
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Kabuo » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:28 pm

Do you have a job lined up?

Edited for a more substantial question. What are your thoughts on curriculum B? Did it come up much at OCI?

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:33 pm

Kabuo wrote:Do you have a job lined up?

Edited for a more substantial question. What are your thoughts on curriculum B? Did it come up much at OCI?


Well, I was one of those "I'll never go to a firm" people, but I'll be going to my large corporate law firm in NYC. I ended up really liking my summer experience and really hating the idea of applying to more jobs. It happens to a lot of people actually...

Edit: To answer your question, I loved the curriculum. It really challenged my conception of the law, and improved my ability to form persuasive arguments; although, this could simply be the result of any first year law experience. I think I did benefit from a more philosophical outlook. Probably most importantly, I didn't feel disadvantaged in terms of substantive legal knowledge when I interned for an circuit judge. I think the judge really appreciated my different perspective.

On the second question, the OCI (we call it EIW) interviewers did ask about it, particularly those unfamiliar with the school. I think it helped me in interviews. I was extremely successful in getting callbacks, and I credit at least a portion of this to my ability to have interesting conversations about my first year experience.

My warning about the alternative curriculum is that the professors tend to be extremely liberal. If you're a conservative who doesn't want to be bombarded with liberal thought, you might pick the standard curriculum. On the other hand, I had fun sparring with the liberals.

BilderMoss
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby BilderMoss » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:54 pm

Do you know many people with clerkships/BIGGOV? What grades do you think it took coming out of GULC in your year?

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:58 pm

BilderMoss wrote:Do you know many people with clerkships/BIGGOV? What grades do you think it took coming out of GULC in your year?


I know quite a few people with DOJ Honors offers. I've never talked to anyone about their grades, but I assume they were at least in the top 15%. I also know a few with other agency's honors programs. A bunch of people are in the running for Presidential Management Fellowships. Federal clerkships are also pretty common, despite the tough market. I'm not sure total numbers, but I'd imagine we are well represented.

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bk1
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:00 pm

Nogameisfair wrote:So, I've had a mostly positive experience, but I'm definitely open to talking about any of Georgetown's issues (and we definitely have our share). Ask away.


Want to weigh in on the issues you considered major?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:03 pm

Nogameisfair wrote:
BilderMoss wrote:Do you know many people with clerkships/BIGGOV? What grades do you think it took coming out of GULC in your year?


I know quite a few people with DOJ Honors offers. I've never talked to anyone about their grades, but I assume they were at least in the top 15%. I also know a few with other agency's honors programs. A bunch of people are in the running for Presidential Management Fellowships. Federal clerkships are also pretty common, despite the tough market. I'm not sure total numbers, but I'd imagine we are well represented.


Wow that's insane! What makes you think their grades are that high?

BeachandRun23
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby BeachandRun23 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:22 pm

What percentage of your class was competitive for biglaw/clerkships?

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:28 pm

BeachandRun23 wrote:What percentage of your class was competitive for biglaw/clerkships?


Well that's a difficult question because biglaw, as you know, is filled almost entirely through OCI (EIW), and clerkships come at various points. I'd say at OCI, top half was pretty easy to grab an offer, beyond that there were a few here and there. I'd say about a third of my friends are going to biglaw. In terms of clerkships, for COA I'd guess top 5% or better. Districts I think you need top-third to be in the running. The clerkship outlook seems to be improving somewhat, so I think we'll see more people grab clerkships after a year or two of working at a firm (that's my plan). Overall I think about half the class is in a tough spot (no biglaw/clerkship), but remember, my class (2011) was likely hit the hardest of all in the recession. Most of them are landing smaller gov't positions, firms, or in a few cases corporate stuff.

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:30 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Nogameisfair wrote:
BilderMoss wrote:Do you know many people with clerkships/BIGGOV? What grades do you think it took coming out of GULC in your year?


I know quite a few people with DOJ Honors offers. I've never talked to anyone about their grades, but I assume they were at least in the top 15%. I also know a few with other agency's honors programs. A bunch of people are in the running for Presidential Management Fellowships. Federal clerkships are also pretty common, despite the tough market. I'm not sure total numbers, but I'd imagine we are well represented.


Wow that's insane! What makes you think their grades are that high?


That's really just a shot in the dark. I know they are all smart, motivated people (of course that describes most people here so I could be wrong).

BeachandRun23
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby BeachandRun23 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:48 pm

Nogameisfair wrote:
BeachandRun23 wrote:What percentage of your class was competitive for biglaw/clerkships?


Well that's a difficult question because biglaw, as you know, is filled almost entirely through OCI (EIW), and clerkships come at various points. I'd say at OCI, top half was pretty easy to grab an offer, beyond that there were a few here and there. I'd say about a third of my friends are going to biglaw. In terms of clerkships, for COA I'd guess top 5% or better. Districts I think you need top-third to be in the running. The clerkship outlook seems to be improving somewhat, so I think we'll see more people grab clerkships after a year or two of working at a firm (that's my plan). Overall I think about half the class is in a tough spot (no biglaw/clerkship), but remember, my class (2011) was likely hit the hardest of all in the recession. Most of them are landing smaller gov't positions, firms, or in a few cases corporate stuff.


Thanks. Alot of people were saying GULC was slaughtered and only 20-25% of the class got biglaw. GULC seems to take alot of hate on here for whatever reason.

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:06 pm

BeachandRun23 wrote:
Nogameisfair wrote:
BeachandRun23 wrote:What percentage of your class was competitive for biglaw/clerkships?


Well that's a difficult question because biglaw, as you know, is filled almost entirely through OCI (EIW), and clerkships come at various points. I'd say at OCI, top half was pretty easy to grab an offer, beyond that there were a few here and there. I'd say about a third of my friends are going to biglaw. In terms of clerkships, for COA I'd guess top 5% or better. Districts I think you need top-third to be in the running. The clerkship outlook seems to be improving somewhat, so I think we'll see more people grab clerkships after a year or two of working at a firm (that's my plan). Overall I think about half the class is in a tough spot (no biglaw/clerkship), but remember, my class (2011) was likely hit the hardest of all in the recession. Most of them are landing smaller gov't positions, firms, or in a few cases corporate stuff.


Thanks. Alot of people were saying GULC was slaughtered and only 20-25% of the class got biglaw. GULC seems to take alot of hate on here for whatever reason.


I would find that really hard to believe based on my experience and that of friends, but then I don't have hard numbers of biglaw offers. I'd like to see the office of career services distribute some information to clear that up.

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spaceman82
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby spaceman82 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:10 pm

Do you feel that the large class size at GULC affected your experience there negatively at all, whether in terms of actual study or the support you received from the various offices?

How do you feel about the administration overall?

GULC gets hated on a lot here. Do you think the hatred is deserved? Do you think GULC is on its way out of the T14? Prestige-wise, how do you think GULC fares with PI organizations and people in the legal field in general, especially as compared to other schools in the bottom half of the T14 (if you have any point of reference for such a comparison)?

Curriculum B seems to be more reading-intense than Curriculum A. From what you've seen and heard, is it a much harder route to take because of this, or are the two curricula about the same in terms of difficulty?

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions!

johndhi
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby johndhi » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:19 am

Sec3 1L here. Do you mind saying which district you worked in, or at least, what you did at the USAO? Do you think that experience played a big role in landing a circuit internship? Was that a summer internship, and how do you think you got it? Any tips on doing well on the section 3 professors' exams? :) Feel free to answer anything by PM.

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:30 pm

spaceman82 wrote:Do you feel that the large class size at GULC affected your experience there negatively at all, whether in terms of actual study or the support you received from the various offices?


As I said above, I went to a large public undergrad, so the class size feels pretty small and intimate to me. For first year, your section (particularly the alternative section) is pretty much your law school world, so that's about the same size at any school. Our sections are around 110-120 people. A few weeks in you know most everyone. There are so many small seminar classes that it doesn't really matter. I had the chance to take a few great seminar classes, one with a former Breyer clerk. Those classes had about ten people. I think for me the big class size helped me because I felt more free to say and do things without feeling judged. I also had several groups of friends that didn't really know each-other, which I prefer. On the other hand, we do have a higher student to faculty ratio, and I'm sure the opportunities to interact with professors are slightly lower because of that.

I don't think it hurt me in terms of employment because I was mostly looking toward working in NYC. I think some people were hurt if they focused on one small market or entirely on DC. This was particularly true for my year because firms reduced their summer classes so dramatically that year (2009 OCI). I did have some significant advantages in terms of connections from my previous work.

spaceman82 wrote:How do you feel about the administration overall?


I'm not sure how I feel about the new Dean. Some of the other administrators are great, but on the whole I feel law school administrations are out of touch with their students. I'm not thrilled with career services, and that bit from Dean Fernando in the Times doesn't help matters. On the whole I think the school is well run.

spaceman82 wrote:GULC gets hated on a lot here. Do you think the hatred is deserved? Do you think GULC is on its way out of the T14? Prestige-wise, how do you think GULC fares with PI organizations and people in the legal field in general, especially as compared to other schools in the bottom half of the T14 (if you have any point of reference for such a comparison)?


I think the prestige of the name is there to stay. When talking to people in biglaw we definitely are up there with the other T14. The schools just below us in the rankings simply don't have that kind of selling power with firms, and I don't see them doing that any time soon. I think we're exceptionally strong with government employers. PI I'm not too sure about because I've never applied to anything like that or really talked to many PI folks about it. Our Office of Public Interest Careers (that may be the wrong name for it) seems to be really on the ball. I've spoken to them about government employment a few times. I prefer them to our OCS by far.

spaceman82 wrote:Curriculum B seems to be more reading-intense than Curriculum A. From what you've seen and heard, is it a much harder route to take because of this, or are the two curricula about the same in terms of difficulty?


I'm sure there is more reading, and I believe because of that the people are generally more intense law students. That said, they also were very friendly and anti-competitive in a lot of ways. There were very few of the gunners that I now see in classes with the rest of the school. We also didn't have any professors using the strict socratic method. All in all, I doubt it was significantly harder than any other first year experience.

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:58 pm

johndhi wrote:Sec3 1L here. Do you mind saying which district you worked in, or at least, what you did at the USAO? Do you think that experience played a big role in landing a circuit internship? Was that a summer internship, and how do you think you got it? Any tips on doing well on the section 3 professors' exams? :) Feel free to answer anything by PM.

Hey there fellow hippie law student! Actually my summer internship with the judge was entirely through connections at the USAO... I was a paralegal/investigator with an AUSA guy who clerked for the judge. I'll just say it was Second or Third Circuit, since those are the NY Area circuits. I don't want to get too specific, that way I can give straightforward opinions on here without fear of retribution or awkward moments.

I didn't do exceptionally well on all the Section 3 exams, although I did get an A in Bargain (6 credits) so that helped a ton. I made Dean's List my first year, and I was probably around top 20%. This advice generally applies to anyone's first year exams:

1) Don't let other people get into your head, not that they intentionally will, but seeing people study frantically is not good. I stayed away from campus as much as possible my first year.
2) Don't worry about information assigned but not used in class. Just get a really good mastery of the stuff the professor talks about. After a while I started reading after class. This was particularly effective in Bargain, because so much of that information is useless for the exam. I probably studied half the time that most of the class did, but scored much higher on the exams.
3) Hornbooks are mostly a waste of time, only use them if you are REALLY lost. This is particularly true for Section 3 since we didn't really use casebooks as much. They have some on reserve at the library so I wouldn't bother wasting the money on them unless you feel the placebo effect will reduce your stress.
4) Don't cram. I always stopped studying around 6pm the night before an exam. I watched a movie and even had a glass of beer or wine occasionally. My mentor from the USAO gave me this advice and it really worked great. I went into exams ready to work hard for 4 hours, not overly tired and stressed.

All that said, I'm pretty firmly in the school of thought that says law exams are largely random. You have to study hard to put yourself in contention for the A, after that it's a lot of chance. Crazy system to pick future clerks and biglaw types... Good luck!

If you want any more specific advice, you can PM me.

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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby sonervous88 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:12 pm

hi! i know its an overdone question but i was wondering if you could tell me what other schools you got into and why you chose georgetown? i am having a really difficult time picking a school so any insight would be really helpful. thank you!

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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Marionberry » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:15 pm

bk1 wrote:
Nogameisfair wrote:So, I've had a mostly positive experience, but I'm definitely open to talking about any of Georgetown's issues (and we definitely have our share). Ask away.


Want to weigh in on the issues you considered major?

kcdc
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby kcdc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:26 pm

I'm applying to 3 part-time programs in DC (guess which), and Georgetown is my first choice. My GPA is very low for GULC, so low that I wouldn't even think I had a shot, except for Georgetown's claim that they look for "interesting people" and that it's "not all about the numbers".

Do you find these claims to be true?

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:37 pm

sonervous88 wrote:hi! i know its an overdone question but i was wondering if you could tell me what other schools you got into and why you chose georgetown? i am having a really difficult time picking a school so any insight would be really helpful. thank you!


I applied to 22 schools, largely because i had two widely divergent LSAT scores. The schools that were in the running (ones I considered seriously) were Georgetown ($$), Vandy ($$$), Cornell ($$), UVA (Nada), GW ($$$$$); wait-listed at Michigan, Northwestern, and Duke. In the end, Georgetown made more sense because of their wide-range of programs. At the time I thought I was interested in international trade law. Although I found out quickly that this was a bad idea for a career, Georgetown has such a broad selection of classes and clinics that I don't regret going. I quickly found other things to focus on. I also liked the idea of being in a major east coast city, and the ability to take the train easily to interviews, friends, and family in NYC. FInally, I really wanted to make sure I didn't pay ticket anywhere, which was a big reason for not going to UVA (also I didn't want to live in Charlottesville for three years). It probably would have been safer for my career to go to UVA, but I don't know that I would have enjoyed it as much and my grades might have suffered because of it.

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Nogameisfair
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby Nogameisfair » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:44 pm

kcdc wrote:I'm applying to 3 part-time programs in DC (guess which), and Georgetown is my first choice. My GPA is very low for GULC, so low that I wouldn't even think I had a shot, except for Georgetown's claim that they look for "interesting people" and that it's "not all about the numbers".

Do you find these claims to be true?


Don't all schools say that they don't focus on the numbers and that they are looking for "bright, original, snowflake like personalities, blah blah holistic approach blah"? I assume that Georgetown is about like the rest, if you have the numbers you get in, if you don't you probably wont. That said, all the scores reported to the ABA are the median or quartiles (not averages). Since Georgetown's class is so large ant the bottom 25% of both LSAT and GPA go unreported, it leaves them a lot of space to let in splitters, whereas a smaller school doesn't have that flexibility. I think if you show Dean Cornblatt that GULC is your top pick then you'll have a good shot with a high LSAT.

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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:48 pm

kcdc wrote:I'm applying to 3 part-time programs in DC (guess which), and Georgetown is my first choice. My GPA is very low for GULC, so low that I wouldn't even think I had a shot, except for Georgetown's claim that they look for "interesting people" and that it's "not all about the numbers".

Do you find these claims to be true?



I go to GULC and my UGPA is fucking terrible.

How bad are we talking here>

kcdc
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby kcdc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:52 pm

Nogameisfair wrote:
kcdc wrote:I'm applying to 3 part-time programs in DC (guess which), and Georgetown is my first choice. My GPA is very low for GULC, so low that I wouldn't even think I had a shot, except for Georgetown's claim that they look for "interesting people" and that it's "not all about the numbers".

Do you find these claims to be true?


Don't all schools say that they don't focus on the numbers and that they are looking for "bright, original, snowflake like personalities, blah blah holistic approach blah"? I assume that Georgetown is about like the rest, if you have the numbers you get in, if you don't you probably wont. That said, all the scores reported to the ABA are the median or quartiles (not averages). Since Georgetown's class is so large, the bottom 25% of both LSAT and GPA go unreported, it leaves them a lot of space to let in splitters, whereas a smaller school doesn't have that flexibility. I think if you show Dean Cornblatt that GULC is your top pick then you'll have a good shot with a high LSAT.


Well they do, I suppose, but with Georgetown I really believe it (likely wishful thinking). Do you find your classmates to be of above-average intrigue?

My LSAT is above the 75th for the PT program, but not above the median for FT. Guess I'll just keep my fingers crossed...

Thanks!

kcdc
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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby kcdc » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:56 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
kcdc wrote:I'm applying to 3 part-time programs in DC (guess which), and Georgetown is my first choice. My GPA is very low for GULC, so low that I wouldn't even think I had a shot, except for Georgetown's claim that they look for "interesting people" and that it's "not all about the numbers".

Do you find these claims to be true?



I go to GULC and my UGPA is fucking terrible.

How bad are we talking here>


3.1, 168 LSAT, applied ED to PT program last week. Engineering major, solid undergrad extracurricular experience (won student leadership award senior year), very solid work experience since graduation 2 years ago. Compelling personal statement with insinuations that I've overcome a lot of adversity.

Half of me is embarrassed for even applying, the other half thinks I have a decent shot. I can't stop arguing with myself.

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Re: Georgetown 3L twiddling thumbs 'til graduation: questions?

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:58 pm

kcdc wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
kcdc wrote:I'm applying to 3 part-time programs in DC (guess which), and Georgetown is my first choice. My GPA is very low for GULC, so low that I wouldn't even think I had a shot, except for Georgetown's claim that they look for "interesting people" and that it's "not all about the numbers".

Do you find these claims to be true?



I go to GULC and my UGPA is fucking terrible.

How bad are we talking here>


3.1, 168 LSAT, applied ED to PT program last week. Engineering major, solid undergrad extracurricular experience (won student leadership award senior year), very solid work experience since graduation 2 years ago. Compelling personal statement with insinuations that I've overcame a lot of adversity.

Half of me is embarrassed for even applying, the other half thinks I have a decent shot. I can't stop arguing with myself.



I think you have absolutely have a real shot, definitely should not be embarrassed for applying.


Good luck!




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