Northwestern 1L/2L/3L/Grads Taking Questions and Challenges

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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IAFG
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby IAFG » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:39 pm

Being a lawyer isn't like being a notary. A consulting company isn't going to just bop in your office and ask you a legal question, then have you go back about your consulting work. If they need a lawyer, they bring in a lawyer. It might serve the signaling and stuff to get you hired, but the job isn't going to be a lawyer-consultant hybrid.

splitmuch
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby splitmuch » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:06 pm

googlesearch wrote: I can't say big law is exactly an aim of mine, but I see they place the most in business & industry in T14... Can someone explain exactly what that means? What's an example of a job in bus&ind?

It may be exactly what I'm looking for!


Ironic username is ironic.

Bumi
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Bumi » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:27 pm

googlesearch wrote:I want to practice law, that's why I'm going to go to law school. I was looking for information relevant to me that would be good to write in a PS/Addendum geared specifically toward NU.

Bus & ind needs lawyers, that's why people with JDs get hired. Especially finance. Just because I don't want big law, doesn't mean I don't want to practice.


Wait, are you under the impression that Northwestern grads go right into in-house roles at huge financial companies after they graduate? Because they don't. If you want to work in-house for a huge financial company, you need to go through biglaw. If you want to work for a huge financial company doing something vaguely law related, you don't need to go to law school for that. I swear to god, we're not trying to be mean to you. Most of us. We're trying to help you because you seem to be unfamiliar with how these career paths work.

The people who you're seeing in the business and industry stats aren't going in-house at Blackrock. BCG picks up JDs, but not to practice law.

Why don't you want biglaw, exactly? Plenty of people don't, but I have yet to meet a single person who is simultaneously allergic to biglaw, interested in being a lawyer, and interested in finance and trading.

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Samara
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Samara » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:46 am

I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.

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Blumpbeef
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Blumpbeef » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:58 am

Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.


I was going to say the same thing about the conversation we had Monday night. "Everyone does ok, everyone has jobs that they're happy with. "

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bdubs » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:04 am

Blumpbeef wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.


I was going to say the same thing about the conversation we had Monday night. "Everyone does ok, everyone has jobs that they're happy with. "


One place where former CSO dude, Bill, was actually good. He told 2014 that ~2/3 of us would get jobs at big firms, so everyone needed to think about alternatives in case that didn't work out. Perhaps that is why he moved to DePaul.

Everyone then proceeded to hype up govt, non-profit, and small/mid law. I'm guessing things probably aren't that different, you guys are just cynics like the rest of us.

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IAFG
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:22 am

Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.

Well, both things can be true at the same time. The back up plans that no one is terribly happy about resorting to are also hiring people for prestige whore-y reasons. And jobs are hardly perfectly correlated with grades. I am not saying that Northwestern is a golden ticket, or that anyone should relax about 1L grades, but it seems like the percentage of people who have an okay outcome by graduation (meaning clerkship, fellowship, LRAP-eligable or job paying sufficiently to service loans) is substantial.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:39 am

Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.
Does it make me a terrible person to hope that some people are taking it at face value? Less competition for the good jobs!

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Samara
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Samara » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:56 am

IAFG wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.

Well, both things can be true at the same time. The back up plans that no one is terribly happy about resorting to are also hiring people for prestige whore-y reasons. And jobs are hardly perfectly correlated with grades. I am not saying that Northwestern is a golden ticket, or that anyone should relax about 1L grades, but it seems like the percentage of people who have an okay outcome by graduation (meaning clerkship, fellowship, LRAP-eligable or job paying sufficiently to service loans) is substantial.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying that coming to Northwestern doesn't give me a big leg up. And I don't think the job outlook is totally bleak. However, it's silly to say stuff like this that almost completely discounts the hard work that people do to get those okay outcomes. If you want an okay outcome, much less a great outcome, you have to put in a lot of work somewhere along the line, whether it's 1L grades, law review, student groups, volunteering, networking, or whatever. The administrator's statement implies that all those things will have virtually no impact on your job search.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bdubs » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:16 am

Samara wrote: However, it's silly to say stuff like this that almost completely discounts the hard work that people do to get those okay outcomes. If you want an okay outcome, much less a great outcome, you have to put in a lot of work somewhere along the line, whether it's 1L grades, law review, student groups, volunteering, networking, or whatever.


This is not the way a curve works. Journal is also a function of grades. If they told the whole class to kill themselves studying and everyone did it, the results would still be the same. Of course work ends up mattering because there are inevitably people who won't put in the work.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby homestyle28 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:20 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphvrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.
Does it make me a terrible person to hope that some people are taking it at face value? Less competition for the good jobs!

Yes.

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Samara
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Samara » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:23 am

bdubs wrote:
Samara wrote: However, it's silly to say stuff like this that almost completely discounts the hard work that people do to get those okay outcomes. If you want an okay outcome, much less a great outcome, you have to put in a lot of work somewhere along the line, whether it's 1L grades, law review, student groups, volunteering, networking, or whatever.


This is not the way a curve works. Journal is also a function of grades. If they told the whole class to kill themselves studying and everyone did it, the results would still be the same. Of course work ends up mattering because there are inevitably people who won't put in the work.

I am under the impression that LR isn't 100% grade-on, which means that you have to put in at least some work in the write-on competition and that some people get on with lower grades with a lot of work. Is that incorrect?

I'm not sure how the rest of your post contradicts what I said.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bdubs » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:34 am

Samara wrote:
bdubs wrote:
Samara wrote: However, it's silly to say stuff like this that almost completely discounts the hard work that people do to get those okay outcomes. If you want an okay outcome, much less a great outcome, you have to put in a lot of work somewhere along the line, whether it's 1L grades, law review, student groups, volunteering, networking, or whatever.


This is not the way a curve works. Journal is also a function of grades. If they told the whole class to kill themselves studying and everyone did it, the results would still be the same. Of course work ends up mattering because there are inevitably people who won't put in the work.

I am under the impression that LR isn't 100% grade-on, which means that you have to put in at least some work in the write-on competition and that some people get on with lower grades with a lot of work. Is that incorrect?

I'm not sure how the rest of your post contradicts what I said.


The administration doesn't want to encourage stress over grades because people will do it anyway. There is always going to be a top of the class and always going to be a bottom of the class.

LR is not 100% grade on, but it's highly correlated with grades for 2/3 of the spots. The amount of effort put into the writing competition above a basic amount has little effect on whether you make LR (at least it seems that way).

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:58 am

homestyle28 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphvrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.
Does it make me a terrible person to hope that some people are taking it at face value? Less competition for the good jobs!

Yes.
:(
I don't want anyone to starve or end up as a barista...just let me have first choice.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bk1 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:58 am

Samara wrote:I'm not sure how the rest of your post contradicts what I said.


The point is that hard work does not necessarily correlate with good outcomes (whether it be grades or something else).

This is my opinion (and others will differ), but I suggest just ignoring the dumb things the administration/CSO say for the most part. Pretty much everything useful I could learn I got from other students and from TLS. Paying attention to every single dumb thing that random admins, CSOs, D-rod, etc say will inevitably drive you nuts.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby homestyle28 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:12 am

rinkrat19 wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphvrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.
Does it make me a terrible person to hope that some people are taking it at face value? Less competition for the good jobs!

Yes.
:(
I don't want anyone to starve or end up as a barista...just let me have first choice.


Understandable. But just embrace the fact that law school will make you a terrible person. That's what I've done :twisted:

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:21 am

bk1 wrote:I suggest just ignoring the dumb things the administration/CSO say for the most part.


Ahyup

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Samara
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Samara » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:34 am

Fair enough. I guess I'm looking for a little more realism and recognition of the importance of the choices we make (especially wrt OCI/job search) and a little fewer pollyannaisms.

(I should also clarify, it seems like working smarter is a lot more valuable than working harder. Coming to NU doesn't make working smarter a foregone conclusion.)

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IAFG
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:38 am

Samara wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Samara wrote:I'm getting sick of the sunshine and rainbows the administration keeps pushing on us about the legal job market. Yesterday we were told (I'm paraphrasing): Don't stress about 1L grades and such. 99% of the doors that will open for you in your legal career will open because of a decision you made before even stepping foot on campus, the decision to come to Northwestern.

MAF. Or maybe firms are moving to the bingo cage method of legal hiring and no one told me.

Well, both things can be true at the same time. The back up plans that no one is terribly happy about resorting to are also hiring people for prestige whore-y reasons. And jobs are hardly perfectly correlated with grades. I am not saying that Northwestern is a golden ticket, or that anyone should relax about 1L grades, but it seems like the percentage of people who have an okay outcome by graduation (meaning clerkship, fellowship, LRAP-eligable or job paying sufficiently to service loans) is substantial.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying that coming to Northwestern doesn't give me a big leg up. And I don't think the job outlook is totally bleak. However, it's silly to say stuff like this that almost completely discounts the hard work that people do to get those okay outcomes. If you want an okay outcome, much less a great outcome, you have to put in a lot of work somewhere along the line, whether it's 1L grades, law review, student groups, volunteering, networking, or whatever. The administrator's statement implies that all those things will have virtually no impact on your job search.

What I am trying to say is, the problem isn't the statement, it's the inferences you're drawing from it.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:49 am

Samara wrote:Fair enough. I guess I'm looking for a little more realism and recognition of the importance of the choices we make (especially wrt OCI/job search) and a little fewer pollyannaisms.

(I should also clarify, it seems like working smarter is a lot more valuable than working harder. Coming to NU doesn't make working smarter a foregone conclusion.)


There are people in the administration more than willing to be realists with you. You'll find them as you go.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby IAFG » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:51 am

Samara wrote:Fair enough. I guess I'm looking for a little more realism and recognition of the importance of the choices we make (especially wrt OCI/job search) and a little fewer pollyannaisms.

(I should also clarify, it seems like working smarter is a lot more valuable than working harder. Coming to NU doesn't make working smarter a foregone conclusion.)

As I see it, there is a significant problem with people over-stressing and panicking through 1L, and a small or even nonexistent problem of people thinking they've arrived and don't need to work hard (JDMBAs aside, particularly since they're probably right in thinking they don't really need to work hard). I don't know what purpose would be served in reminding people to panic and stress more.

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Samara
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Samara » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:52 am

bjsesq wrote:
Samara wrote:Fair enough. I guess I'm looking for a little more realism and recognition of the importance of the choices we make (especially wrt OCI/job search) and a little fewer pollyannaisms.

(I should also clarify, it seems like working smarter is a lot more valuable than working harder. Coming to NU doesn't make working smarter a foregone conclusion.)


There are people in the administration more than willing to be realists with you. You'll find them as you go.

Good. I liked Bill a lot when I met him last spring, and on first impression the new OCS people seem solid. We'll see when I actually get to talk to them.

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homestyle28
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby homestyle28 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:09 pm

Samara wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
Samara wrote:Fair enough. I guess I'm looking for a little more realism and recognition of the importance of the choices we make (especially wrt OCI/job search) and a little fewer pollyannaisms.

(I should also clarify, it seems like working smarter is a lot more valuable than working harder. Coming to NU doesn't make working smarter a foregone conclusion.)


There are people in the administration more than willing to be realists with you. You'll find them as you go.

Good. I liked Bill a lot when I met him last spring, and on first impression the new OCS people seem solid. We'll see when I actually get to talk to them.


Dave is solid, IMO...maybe not bleak enough, but I've never thought him as overly pie-in-the-sky. He's also really helpful in improving your resume/cover letters, etc.

09042014
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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby 09042014 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:23 pm

Like others are saying, no matter how hard 1Ls work, there is a top and a bottom.Trying to make you all cut throat gunners just isn't the culture here.

80% of you will end up fine. Gunning 1L, won't make that number any higher. Gunning OCI will.

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Re: Northwestern 3Ls Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby crumpetsandtea » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:56 pm

IAFG wrote:
Samara wrote:Fair enough. I guess I'm looking for a little more realism and recognition of the importance of the choices we make (especially wrt OCI/job search) and a little fewer pollyannaisms.

(I should also clarify, it seems like working smarter is a lot more valuable than working harder. Coming to NU doesn't make working smarter a foregone conclusion.)

As I see it, there is a significant problem with people over-stressing and panicking through 1L, and a small or even nonexistent problem of people thinking they've arrived and don't need to work hard (JDMBAs aside, particularly since they're probably right in thinking they don't really need to work hard). I don't know what purpose would be served in reminding people to panic and stress more.

Was going to say basically this + what DF just said.

I honestly think it's good that they're playing it down right now. What's the point of us stressing right now about OCI? We can't even talk to OCS about it until November. It's impossible to tell what firms we should gun for (or if we are even in a position to do well in OCI) without any sort of grades. It's been two and a half weeks, they're not going to come in on the first day and go "Look guys, y'all better kick some fucking ass because the job market is terrible and you aren't going to be able to waltz through OCI. NO ONE IS SAFE. YOU NEED TO BE TOP 1/3 OF THE CLASS OR YOU'RE FUCKED." Can you imagine the complete paranoia and cutthroat atmosphere that would create? They're trying to take the stress OFF of job searching because our focus should be ON studying, getting accustomed to reading cases, and learning how to take a law school exam. Once grades come back and we can assess our situation, we can start worrying about what jobs we can get.




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