Northwestern 1L/2L/3L/Grads Taking Questions and Challenges

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:43 pm

D-hops wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:
D-hops wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Of course it matters! This is TLS! I want to see a new tier "MVNP."


You can have a dean that worries about USNews Rankings. I'll take a Dean that worries about getting me a jerb.

That was DVZ's focus, wasn't it? The whole Plan 2008 stuff? It seemed like part of the problem was he focused too much on employers and our reputation suffered.


He focused on a plan that would get students jobs - which is the point of a professional school. How is that a bad thing again?

That's a great thing. Yet his tenure is looked upon unfavorably. So what went wrong?

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bjsesq
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:45 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:That's a great thing. Yet his tenure is looked upon unfavorably. So what went wrong?


Who looks upon his tenure unfavorably? Certain faculty who air their grievances out to blogs?

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D-hops
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby D-hops » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:49 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:
D-hops wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Of course it matters! This is TLS! I want to see a new tier "MVNP."


You can have a dean that worries about USNews Rankings. I'll take a Dean that worries about getting me a jerb.

That was DVZ's focus, wasn't it? The whole Plan 2008 stuff? It seemed like part of the problem was he focused too much on employers and our reputation suffered.


This is not true. From the quick research I was able to do I get

Judge Reputation Score
2010 = 4.1
2009 = 4.0
2008 = 4.1
2007 = 4.0
2006 = 4.1

Practitioner Reputation Score
2010 = 4.3
2009 = 4.3
2008 = 4.3
2007 = 4.4
2006 = 4.1

There has been really no appreciable difference between pre-Plan 2008 and the present. And there is likely nothing a Dean can do to increase reputation score except maybe over a 5-10 year period, even then it is tenuous.

splitmuch
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby splitmuch » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:51 pm

bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:That's a great thing. Yet his tenure is looked upon unfavorably. So what went wrong?


Who looks upon his tenure unfavorably? Certain faculty who air their grievances out to blogs?



Essentially. I mean this is the only negative thing I've seen http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... allen.html

Is that whate youre referring to or is there another episode as well?

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:52 pm

bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:That's a great thing. Yet his tenure is looked upon unfavorably. So what went wrong?


Who looks upon his tenure unfavorably? Certain faculty who air their grievances out to blogs?


Legal academia in general? The dude was here for what, 20 years? Why is our reputation lower than Mich, UVA, Duke, GULC despite better employment figures?

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D-hops
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby D-hops » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:00 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:That's a great thing. Yet his tenure is looked upon unfavorably. So what went wrong?


Who looks upon his tenure unfavorably? Certain faculty who air their grievances out to blogs?


Legal academia in general? The dude was here for what, 20 years? Why is our reputation lower than Mich, UVA, Duke, GULC despite better employment figures?


Maybe because that is the way it has always been...

I am just curious as to if (and if so why) you think DVZ's time would have been better served to try and increase the reputation score on rankings that matter only as an advertisement to prospective students as to the quality of the school (reputations scores that seem fairly ensconced in the first place), rather than try to get the students that are paying a shitload of money to attend school a job. I think DVZ's priorities were in the right place, personally.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:03 pm

D-hops wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:That's a great thing. Yet his tenure is looked upon unfavorably. So what went wrong?


Who looks upon his tenure unfavorably? Certain faculty who air their grievances out to blogs?


Legal academia in general? The dude was here for what, 20 years? Why is our reputation lower than Mich, UVA, Duke, GULC despite better employment figures?


Maybe because that is the way it has always been...

I am just curious as to if (and if so why) you think DVZ's time would have been better served to try and increase the reputation score on rankings that matter only as an advertisement to prospective students as to the quality of the school (reputations scores that seem fairly ensconced in the first place), rather than try to get the students that are paying a shitload of money to attend school a job. I think DVZ's priorities were in the right place, personally.


I tend to agree with you, and I really had no inclination that DVZ was anything less than a stellar dean until two things happened: 1) he left under seemingly odd circumstances, and 2) Allen through him under the bus.

But as far as reputation scores, I think it would be in our school's best interest to be more competitive with UVA and Mich in the non-biglaw fields of employment.

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bjsesq
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:05 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:1) he left under seemingly odd circumstances, and 2) Allen through him under the bus.

But as far as reputation scores, I think it would be in our school's best interest to be more competitive with UVA and Mich in the non-biglaw fields of employment.


1. Being the Dean of the New School wasn't all that odd to me. I shtere something else you are referring to?

2. The Allen thing made me think less of Allen, not DVZ.

I agree with your last claim, insofar as increasing employment in any aspect is great for any school's rep.

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D-hops
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby D-hops » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:07 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:
D-hops wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Who looks upon his tenure unfavorably? Certain faculty who air their grievances out to blogs?


Legal academia in general? The dude was here for what, 20 years? Why is our reputation lower than Mich, UVA, Duke, GULC despite better employment figures?


Maybe because that is the way it has always been...

I am just curious as to if (and if so why) you think DVZ's time would have been better served to try and increase the reputation score on rankings that matter only as an advertisement to prospective students as to the quality of the school (reputations scores that seem fairly ensconced in the first place), rather than try to get the students that are paying a shitload of money to attend school a job. I think DVZ's priorities were in the right place, personally.


I tend to agree with you, and I really had no inclination that DVZ was anything less than a stellar dean until two things happened: 1) he left under seemingly odd circumstances, and 2) Allen through him under the bus.

But as far as reputation scores, I think it would be in our school's best interest to be more competitive with UVA and Mich in the non-biglaw fields of employment.


Odd circumstances that include: getting a better job as the president of a university? lolwut?

Allen is a self-important professor who thinks his way is the only right way. There is a reason he is not a Dean.

How exactly do you increase a reputation score?

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:07 pm

bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:1) he left under seemingly odd circumstances, and 2) Allen through him under the bus.

But as far as reputation scores, I think it would be in our school's best interest to be more competitive with UVA and Mich in the non-biglaw fields of employment.


1. Being the Dean of the New School wasn't all that odd to me. I shtere something else you are referring to?

2. The Allen thing made me think less of Allen, not DVZ.

I agree with your last claim, insofar as increasing employment in any aspect is great for any school's rep.

Maybe I'm giving the Allen interview too much credit, but it really opened my eyes and made me think "hm maybe the students like this guy but all the profs hate him?" Either he was very divisive as a dean or Allen is blatantly making shit up.

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bjsesq
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:1) he left under seemingly odd circumstances, and 2) Allen through him under the bus.

But as far as reputation scores, I think it would be in our school's best interest to be more competitive with UVA and Mich in the non-biglaw fields of employment.


1. Being the Dean of the New School wasn't all that odd to me. I shtere something else you are referring to?

2. The Allen thing made me think less of Allen, not DVZ.

I agree with your last claim, insofar as increasing employment in any aspect is great for any school's rep.

Maybe I'm giving the Allen interview too much credit, but it really opened my eyes and made me think "hm maybe the students like this guy but all the profs hate him?" Either he was very divisive as a dean or Allen is blatantly making shit up.


But really, how many law professors are over the top egotistical, aspy maniacs? It's hard to stroke all those egos.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Maybe I just thought it was weird how they sprung it on us, though I don't know the normal protocol for deans leaving and notifying students. Also (and again this might be my ignorance/naivete) I guess I'm surprised that a legal scholar taking non-legal appointment is viewed as a step up. And the New School isn't even a top college.

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D-hops
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby D-hops » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:11 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Maybe I just thought it was weird how they sprung it on us, though I don't know the normal protocol for deans leaving and notifying students. Also (and again this might be my ignorance/naivete) I guess I'm surprised that a legal scholar taking non-legal appointment is viewed as a step up. And the New School isn't even a top college.


He got passed over for the President of Northwestern when they decided to hire Shapiro. Word was after that he was looking to bail because he wanted to move up in the academic community and had the credentials to do so. A president of a university is far more prestigious than the dean of a law school. Except maybe the Dean of Harvard, even then, I'm not sure.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:12 pm

D-hops wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Maybe I just thought it was weird how they sprung it on us, though I don't know the normal protocol for deans leaving and notifying students. Also (and again this might be my ignorance/naivete) I guess I'm surprised that a legal scholar taking non-legal appointment is viewed as a step up. And the New School isn't even a top college.


He got passed over for the President of Northwestern when they decided to hire Shapiro. Word was after that he was looking to bail because he wanted to move up in the academic community and had the credentials to do so. A president of a university is far more prestigious than the dean of a law school. Except maybe the Dean of Harvard, even then, I'm not sure.

Ah, good insight.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Holly Golightly » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:22 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Why am I telling this guy these things?


Because he asked for help and you're not a douche? Right?

Wow it seems you're right. News to me.

LOL

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:23 pm

I liked in Follies when Nino changed "no wonder he was run off by angry faculty" to "no wonder he was run off by Ron Allen."

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bjsesq
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:23 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:I liked in Follies when Nino changed "no wonder he was run off by angry faculty" to "no wonder he was run off by Ron Allen."


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

AHYUP

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Holly Golightly » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:30 pm

SHOCKING that Ron Allen would be a self-important douche. He spent a good half hour 1st semester telling me and other 1Ls all the reasons he hates DVZ. After he told us that he decided to teach civ pro because the other profs aren't good enough and he felt the 1Ls needed him.

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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Bumi » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:36 pm

bjsesq wrote:Not really. I'm smarting over the loss of Epstein more than I am the loss of the last Dean.


I knew the website looked different somehow.

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bjsesq
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:41 pm

Bumi wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Not really. I'm smarting over the loss of Epstein more than I am the loss of the last Dean.


I knew the website looked different somehow.


Brilliant scholar, but more importantly, a brilliant educator. Some of these Professors would do well to remember that. One has been mentioned recently.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:44 pm

Not everyone was as gaga for her as you were.

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bjsesq
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby bjsesq » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:45 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Not everyone was as gaga for her as you were.


She was difficult to appraoch outside of the classroom. But did she or did she not make con law as digestible as possible, or not?

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D-hops
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby D-hops » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:46 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Not everyone was as gaga for her as you were.


Didn't she win the 1L teaching award?

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:47 pm

bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Not everyone was as gaga for her as you were.


She was difficult to appraoch outside of the classroom. But did she or did she not make con law as digestible as possible, or not?

A friend of both of ours believes she didn't challenge anyone in class. I also noticed that when someone had a question that would have taken her away from the typical political script, she would deflect or ignore it. She didn't want to analyze the actual reasoning in cases to the same extent as other (ahem, JD) law profs.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Northwestern Students Taking Questions and Challenges

Postby Holly Golightly » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:47 pm

bjsesq wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Not everyone was as gaga for her as you were.


She was difficult to appraoch outside of the classroom. But did she or did she not make con law as digestible as possible, or not?

Whatever, I know all about the 12th Amendment. So suck it.

And who are these suck-ups approaching their profs after class?




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