NYU 3L relaxing...

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4910
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby 4910 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:27 pm

[quote="BarelyKeepingUp"]3.0, but this is definitely towards the bottom of the class given grade inflation.

well this seems to answer everything. also the fact that you seem to have fucked up royally with your employment strategy even though you needed to step up your game to land a job in CA.

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:19 am

With public interest jobs, although they can be really competitive, they are competitive in a different way than BigFirm jobs or clerkships. I have never been asked about grades or journal work for the PI jobs I have applied to. With public interest, they mostly want demonstrated commitment to the public (i.e. show me your good deeds), and ties to the community. If you came into law school wanting to do public interest, stick with that. NYU Law is where good intentions go to die, don't let this happen (even for a 2L summer).

UAC is the best org at the school because you get to handle client matters before an ALJ, and this is closest you to being an actual attorney in school. PI loves direct client representation above all else (grades and journal included). You can also get direct client representation experience by applying to clinics, but they are pretty competitive (and I've never been competitive with my peers). Prisoner's rights will give you client contact as well, but not before judges.

Journals and grades will help you immensely with the more "prestigious" PI jobs reserved exclusively for Ivy leaguers and SCOTUS clerks, but if you only want to help people (not concerned with prestige), you would be better off focusing your time on actually helping people.

Definitely 2L Summer hurt more because I now have to explain how I am different than the sea of JDs who actually wanted BigFirm jobs, only to lose out on those after the recession. For 2L summer, approach the organization you ideally want to work for after school, and aim to impress and build ties all summer with the hiring people.

If you want to work out West, I would suggest trying to transfer. NYU definitely does not have much of a network out here these days, with only a small handful getting any job out here. All of my CA friends who I went to school with couldn't find jobs to come back home, including many trying to go the safe route with BigLaw. Community ties are a big deal for PI jobs, and NY is pretty much the opposite of CA. For my case, I came to NYU and tried BigLaw for summer, and for that I think I am seen as some sort of outsider now in the CA PI community. Finding a PI gig in CA from NYU is akin to landing the elusive international law jobs (that I'm sure also attracted many to NYU).

If you want to work in public defense, not only should you not work with prosecution, but also avoid the Atty General and/or working with domestic violence issues. It sounds ridiculous, but you would be surprised at how narrow-minded people in public defense can be. They don't want to risk letting someone in their office who might have sympathized with a victim, or been apart of a civil prosecution against corrupt corporate officials. Again, "holier than thou" complex can get pretty tough.

Also, if the LRAP sounds too good to be true, it's because it is. You need to get a full-time paid position as an attorney with a PI group to get into the program. Also, eligibility expires after 10 years. As pure as my intentions are, and as much debt as I have, I am S.O.L. for the time being. It does not matter if I do 40 hrs/wk of pro-bono work helping the most at-risk populations. Makes for really awkward conversations with Sallie Mae collectors.

Hope this helps. I don't want the next generation of students repeating my mistakes, although I suppose many already started out down the path if you're paying tuition at NYU Law now. Have you people seen the employment figures for entry-level attorneys (not NYU numbers)? I would recommend checking out the job listings to see how many entry-level gigs you can find for attorneys. Also, realize you are much worse off with a JD trying to enter into a non-legal field, or even going for legal assistant jobs. They see you as a flight-risk, though I don't know where you could possibly fly with this crap economy.

You can tell I have nothing better to do.


Cool message 4910. You feel better about yourself now?

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:39 am

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:Hope this helps. I don't want the next generation of students repeating my mistakes, although I suppose many already started out down the path if you're paying tuition at NYU Law now. Have you people seen the employment figures for entry-level attorneys (not NYU numbers)? I would recommend checking out the job listings to see how many entry-level gigs you can find for attorneys. Also, realize you are much worse off with a JD trying to enter into a non-legal field, or even going for legal assistant jobs. They see you as a flight-risk, though I don't know where you could possibly fly with this crap economy.

Seems to me that people attending NYU should be more interested in NYU's placement than throwing in everyone with a JD...

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:12 am

The point remains, NYU lies about their employment figures with the help of the ABA. Look at the figures from NYU: http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

Now ask yourself, where do I fit in those numbers (being from the class of 2009 and unemployed since 2009)? If the graph is right, I should be within the 3% who were unfortunate enough to merely receive their 3rd choice of job. I assure you, being unemployed two years out of one of the 'best" law schools in the country was not my 3rd choice of employment.

If NYU were more interested in accuracy and transparency for their students, they would be less combative and more cooperative when the issue is raised. Check out http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ if you honestly want to know more about the deceptive and corrupt practices surrounding law school data reporting.

luthersloan
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby luthersloan » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:32 am

The way it is reported really implied that it does not include the unemployed students at all, for that you would need to look at their employed at grad and employed at 9 month numbers. I am not sure what they were for your year, I am guessing only a few percent unemployed in each category though. Of course, that includes waitstaff.

4910
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby 4910 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:40 am

so how do you survive right now?

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spaceman82
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby spaceman82 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:41 am

Thank you for going into so much detail in reply to my questions. I really appreciate it - and appreciate you offering a different perspective on law school here.

4910
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby 4910 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:49 am

yeah i did not mean to be harsh. i am aware that everyone, including me, likes to believe that they won't be THAT guy who strikes out, but you have given a good view through your experience. seems like there is very little room for mistakes in law school.

would it be better to not enroll at NYU and instead enroll in a masters in public policy program at a top school?

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:22 pm

luthersloan wrote:The way it is reported really implied that it does not include the unemployed students at all, for that you would need to look at their employed at grad and employed at 9 month numbers. I am not sure what they were for your year, I am guessing only a few percent unemployed in each category though. Of course, that includes waitstaff.

This.

NYU doesn't report 100% employment, therefore excluding unemployed students in those pie charts implies they are only showing you the employed students' positions, locations, etc. Just because you're bad at interpreting data doesn't mean NYU is lying. Similarly, just because you're bad at finding employment doesn't mean NYU is a bad place to go to find decent employment.

slmc12
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby slmc12 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:40 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
luthersloan wrote:The way it is reported really implied that it does not include the unemployed students at all, for that you would need to look at their employed at grad and employed at 9 month numbers. I am not sure what they were for your year, I am guessing only a few percent unemployed in each category though. Of course, that includes waitstaff.

This.

NYU doesn't report 100% employment, therefore excluding unemployed students in those pie charts implies they are only showing you the employed students' positions, locations, etc. Just because you're bad at interpreting data doesn't mean NYU is lying. Similarly, just because you're bad at finding employment doesn't mean NYU is a bad place to go to find decent employment.


Your hostility is understandable since it's scary to spend so much money on something that could work out terribly - as it did for a lot of grads at the peak of the economic crisis and still does for some. But although I'm a 1L at NYU and am basically committed to law school at this point, I still appreciate the poster's input and his willingness to share his experience with us, even if we're hoping to avoid a similar outcome.

BarelyKeepingUp, when you were studying the material did you feel like you understood the cases? After taking exams for the first semester did you think they were related to what you studied or were kind of a curveball? Did you change your test preparation strategies for later semesters, and if so, did you ever settle on a formula that sort of worked for you?

Why didn't you go after a public interest job for your 2L summer as well?

Thanks in advance.

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$1.99
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby $1.99 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:53 pm

[quote/] NYU doesn't report 100% employment, therefore excluding unemployed students in those pie charts implies they are only showing you the employed students' positions, locations, etc. Just because you're bad at interpreting data doesn't mean NYU is lying. Similarly, just because you're bad at finding employment doesn't mean NYU is a bad place to go to find decent employment.[/quote]

woah woah woah calm down, just because someone said a negative thing about nyu does not mean you should take it personally. are you still mad you got rejected at columbia?

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:14 pm

I survive these days on the good will of family and friends, but I gotta say that is really wearing thin. They are as confused as I am why they are still supporting me with my fancy degrees and all.

And I don't know anything about other grad school prospects, but ...
http://www.lexisnexis.com/community/lex ... ekers.aspx\

I chose BigFirm 2L Summer because I thought it might provide security and give me options, being that PI's are not generally able to offer positions until much later given financial constraints. Like the Meatloaf song, I soon found that "I would do anything for ($$$), but I won't do that." (i.e. find justifications for death trusts, support sweetheart deals with unions, circumvent ADA requirements, etc.; two of these projects actually billed as "pro bono" hours). In all honesty though, I would take that BigFirm job now in a heartbeat (Maslow's hierarchy and all).

My personal experience with the case law, I definitely understood the cases from the beginning but I initially got bogged down in the facts and I was sometimes unclear how all the cases fit together in my first semester. I got better eventually and my grades improved (got the BigFirm summer offer after all). Gotta say though, I was continually impressed at how although my grades improved over all, I would often get my highest grades in classes I felt least prepared, and vice versa. I never participated much in the class discussion, and I never catered my views to that of the professor. I suspect both would have probably helped a lot. Luckily now, students have a better curve where the avg is a 3.3, and not a 3.0.


OK, I guess I should better explain how the misrepresentation works here. I know that I am included in the employed in their "first or second choice" of employment statistics. How? I was still unemployed around 9 months out of school, when I unexpectedly got a sweet offer of assistance from NYU OCS to offer a "launch grant" to fund 3 months at a PI org, provided I use the grant around a time that 'strangely' coincided with reporting deadlines to NALP and US News. I gladly accepted, and I am sincerely grateful for the opportunity. They sent me an ambiguous follow-up survey asking me if this was my first, second, or third choice of org; so I just went with the premise that they gave me and checked 2nd because it was technically my second choice of PI with regard to using the launch grant (having been rejected by my first choice, even as only a volunteer funded thru NYU). I did great work, and the Director of the org showered me with praise in an uncomfortable way. After the 3 month grant expired though, all of the good work did not effect the limited resources of the org, and they regrettably could not produce the funds to offer real-employment (private sector charity to PI has really dried up the last few years).

I do not appreciate how the school used the survey and interpreted this as "full-time" employment when they reported to NALP, US News, etc; but they would never consider it "employment" with regard to me getting into LRAP. They got the number out of me, and that is all that matters for recruiting new admits. I have several friends at T14 schools who are/were also part of the same routine.

The other bias in the stat not disclosed is the inherent problem in self-reporting. Obviously, those who do well with employment after graduation are happy to return the favor to NYU by proudly declaring their 6 figure income as coming from their first-or-second choice of employer. Also, it is akin to asking a room full of married couples if they are with their "first-or-second" choice of spouse. Hindsight bias.

Don't take my word for it; the NYTimes wrote an accurate article on how law schools have fun with numbers. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/busin ... wanted=all

Here is a blog about the rampant problems law education written by law professor Paul Campos. http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

I sincerely hope that all of you who want to become strong advocates for just causes will follow your dreams and everything works out for you making the world a better place (and you get paid too!). Good luck to the rest of you in it more for the paper chase. I am just trying to offer a fuller picture for the next generation, so that they are not blindsided like me by the elephant in the room.

I need work... idle hands...bwahahaha.

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:29 pm

Haha. auto-edit on the law school is scam blog. I like it. google if you want the info. I definitely do not get anything from this time-waste here other than a clearer conscience.

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:28 pm

$1.99 wrote:
NYU doesn't report 100% employment, therefore excluding unemployed students in those pie charts implies they are only showing you the employed students' positions, locations, etc. Just because you're bad at interpreting data doesn't mean NYU is lying. Similarly, just because you're bad at finding employment doesn't mean NYU is a bad place to go to find decent employment.


woah woah woah calm down, just because someone said a negative thing about nyu does not mean you should take it personally. are you still mad you got rejected at columbia?

:?:

I'm seriously not taking this personally. I do, however, believe that focusing on the story of someone finishing at the bottom of the class and says he spent most of his time hanging out with people at other schools rather than the NYU crowd (which seems to me that he didn't try to network enough, but that could be making too big of an assumption) is probably not going to give you an accurate picture of anything.

Yes, we are all aware of the risks of law school, no matter what school we're discussing. It is a large investment, and nothing is guaranteed.

BarelyKeepingUp's story should be a warning, but I don't think anyone has ever thought that going to NYU (or any other top school) was a golden ticket.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:28 am

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:Sorry if I came off as confrontational, but I only really wanted to talk about the school. I am willing to do anything really at this point if it can pay the rent and keep the lights on (including non-legal work).

2L Summer BigFirm. BigMistake unless you really want to work for that Big Firm. Public sector attorneys advised me at the time that it would be good training for great pay. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the work, but I found the work dull and contradictory of my values. That said, I really wish I would not have withdrew my candidacy after the Summer so that I could have at least received one of those cool severance packages after the economy collapsed.

Enough about me, any prospective or current students need to hear anything particular about the school?

probably beating a dead horse here, but why did you withdraw the BigLaw candidacy w/o a backup employment option?

also, what was your undergraduate major




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