NYU 3L relaxing...

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
spondee
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby spondee » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:09 pm

Did you paid sticker all three years? It sounds like you had great grades...

Anything you would change if you had to do law school over again?

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby twistedwrister » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:56 pm

spondee wrote:Did you paid sticker all three years? It sounds like you had great grades...

Anything you would change if you had to do law school over again?


I got small scholarships for 2L and 3L.

Spend more time with friends. Get to know a few of the heavy-hitting profs a bit better.

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby twistedwrister » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:30 am

Bump to say good luck to everyone participating in EIW over the next few days. BTW - where is EIW this year?

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clintonius
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby clintonius » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:50 am

Thanks! It's at the Double Tree. In Times Square :/

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby twistedwrister » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:40 am

Back from bar tripping, taking ?

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ahduth
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby ahduth » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:47 am

In the context of clerkship applications you emphasize recommendations from big name professors. Were your best relationships formed with professors during your 2L year, and were they formed during seminars or independently? I'm having a hard time imagining myself becoming best friends with Arthur Miller during office hours, but I appreciate the need for rec letters in a variety of contexts.

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:28 am

ahduth wrote:In the context of clerkship applications you emphasize recommendations from big name professors. Were your best relationships formed with professors during your 2L year, and were they formed during seminars or independently? I'm having a hard time imagining myself becoming best friends with Arthur Miller during office hours, but I appreciate the need for rec letters in a variety of contexts.


I formed relationships with profs in several different ways. I did well in Lawyering and kept in touch with the prof, who eventually became one of my recommenders. I also took multiple classes, both seminars and doctrinal courses, with a few professors I really liked. This allowed them to get to know me and my work in a variety of different contexts. Additionally, I wrote and published several articles during law school. When I began editing each article, I asked profs for advice on how to improve the piece. After reading my work, the profs knew I was a strong writer.

Of course, there are many other ways to build relationships with profs. You could do independent study, work as a research assistant, etc. I should also mention that I did all of the above (kept in touch with a few profs, took several classes with the same profs, asked profs for feedback on my articles) for reasons other than securing a good rec. I did it because I liked the profs, enjoyed the classes they taught, and wanted to produce the best articles possible. I wasn't just "using" them for a rec. Therefore, when I asked these profs for a recommendation, they went above and beyond to help me out.

Finally, I think a glowing rec from a prof who knows the judge will generally trump a good, but not great, rec from a big name prof who doesn't know the judge. In other words, big name profs are great, but only to the extent that they will write you a great rec.

slmc12
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby slmc12 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:13 am

I hope this isn't too personal - you earlier spoke to how you had a public interest background and I assume you entered law school with the intent to pursue that type of work. What made you end up deciding to go for a firm? Was it only your relationship with the partner? Also, did you get involved in any of the public interest activities at the school, such as through student groups or in other ways?

Second question, were you tied into the life of the Centers at all, such as attending public speaking events and so on? I'm pretty interested in volunteering/getting an internship with one of them but I don't know if they have substantive roles (such as conducting research) available for law students or if I'd just be filing papers all day - 'internship' has such a broad set of possible meanings.

Thanks so much for answering questions!

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby twistedwrister » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:03 pm

slmc12 wrote:I hope this isn't too personal - you earlier spoke to how you had a public interest background and I assume you entered law school with the intent to pursue that type of work. What made you end up deciding to go for a firm? Was it only your relationship with the partner? Also, did you get involved in any of the public interest activities at the school, such as through student groups or in other ways?

Second question, were you tied into the life of the Centers at all, such as attending public speaking events and so on? I'm pretty interested in volunteering/getting an internship with one of them but I don't know if they have substantive roles (such as conducting research) available for law students or if I'd just be filing papers all day - 'internship' has such a broad set of possible meanings.

Thanks so much for answering questions!


Yes, I do have a PI-ish background. Without disclosing too much, I'll be working in a practice group that fosters my humanitarian side, at least most of the time. I got involved in several PI organizations and enjoyed them all. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about the Centers.

twistedwrister
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby twistedwrister » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:35 pm

twistedwrister wrote:Bump to say that NYU continues to attract top profs. Bob Bauer (White House Counsel) will be teaching as an adjunct, and Adam Cox from Chicago is joining the faculty.

http://law.nyu.edu/index.htm


Judge Douglas Ginsburg (D.C. Cir.) is also joining the faculty and will be teaching Admin law to 1Ls. http://law.nyu.edu/news/DOUGLAS_GINSBURG

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:40 pm

Figured I would also make myself available for questions to give a different perspective regarding my personal experience at NYU Law.

A little about myself: I graduated NYU Law 2009, and I have been unemployed since. I'm originally from California, and I am licensed in CA. I attended NYU with the goal of triumphantly returning home to California to be a public interest lawyer equipped with the prestigious NYU Law degree. It turns out that employers don't really care too much about "NYU Law" (thus far), and I am still unemployed today.

The steadfastly published statistics from NYU claiming 95% of their JD students enter into the legal field with their "first or second choice of a job" is really just a LIE that the school explains away as "mere puffery" when pressed about the issue. I literally haven't met a student who actually landed their "first or second choice of employer." The reputation of the school as a great stopping point for public interest lawyers is not really warranted given my experience. I saw many public interest students become BigLaw attorneys, but I never heard of the opposite. Many of my friends who came into the school with public interest values soon found themselves in the Big Law system doing "gofer" work for old white dudes representing corporate interests while undermining the working class. Half of those now in Big Law were convinced that the work could be "humanitarian" (probably given the close relationship between NYU and BigLaw), and the other half just saw it as a necessary evil that they hoped to only do for a year or two to help pay off their enormous debts, and to have gainful employment in a tough economy.

If you want to be a public interest lawyer from NYU Law plan on staying on the East coast, and only work in public interest positions. There is a rampant "holier than thou" attitude within the public interest community, and those from BigLaw will have an uphill battle in trying to transition from the "for profit" sector (i.e. the opposite side of the law). Furthermore, public interest is every bit as competitive as the private sector, and probably moreso given that the government is more broke than the private sector after the Bailout. Furthermore, charitable support for public interest has severely diminished since the recession onset.

Re: professors. They are all "rock stars," meaning they are all prolifically published and therefore respected in academia. However the teaching is hit-or-miss as a result of the hiring process' focusing exclusively on the resulting prestige for NYU, rather than focusing on promoting education. Adam Cox is a great new professor at the school who enjoys teaching and engaging students in the material. Barry Adler on the other hand is more of a well-respected writer. There is less diversity among the professors than there is in the student body and that is really saying something (Can Latinos still be found in NY?).

Re: career services. Not too helpful sadly, but they seem nice. Most of the time they will read your cover letter and/or resume to make sure it looks like every other students'. They will also send you a huge list of internet links (most of them outdated) that offer the same generic job locating tips that can be found on ehow, etc. They will tell you about the importance of "networking," or as they will explain it to you, introducing yourself to strangers with the goal of getting jobs but with the added caveat that you are not allowed to ask about jobs (i.e. the only damn thing you care about). I'm not really sure why any "career services" exist, other than to give motivational speeches. There is a fundamental disconnect at play here between the employed career counselors and the unemployed students/alumni.

My favorite part about the whole law school experience though is the fact that they did not even get my name right on my $200K law degree. Perfect. I prefer to think of my time at NYU Law as more of an expensive lesson in absurdity and farcical comedy.

My advice to law students (prospective or current), save your money and focus on doing what you love. Don't look to law school for security and employment because neither is guaranteed. You can count on the debt however. I wish the school wasn't so dismissive and that I was more steadfast about my request to withdraw from school after my 1L.

So with that in mind, I am also open to any questions about NYU Law. I promise to keep my answers short and honest.

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thecilent
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby thecilent » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:45 pm

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:Figured I would also make myself available for questions to give a different perspective regarding my personal experience at NYU Law.

A little about myself: I graduated NYU Law 2009, and I have been unemployed since. I'm originally from California, and I am licensed in CA. I attended NYU with the goal of triumphantly returning home to California to be a public interest lawyer equipped with the prestigious NYU Law degree. It turns out that employers don't really care too much about "NYU Law" (thus far), and I am still unemployed today.

The steadfastly published statistics from NYU claiming 95% of their JD students enter into the legal field with their "first or second choice of a job" is really just a LIE that the school explains away as "mere puffery" when pressed about the issue. I literally haven't met a student who actually landed their "first or second choice of employer." The reputation of the school as a great stopping point for public interest lawyers is not really warranted given my experience. I saw many public interest students become BigLaw attorneys, but I never heard of the opposite. Many of my friends who came into the school with public interest values soon found themselves in the Big Law system doing "gofer" work for old white dudes representing corporate interests while undermining the working class. Half of those now in Big Law were convinced that the work could be "humanitarian" (probably given the close relationship between NYU and BigLaw), and the other half just saw it as a necessary evil that they hoped to only do for a year or two to help pay off their enormous debts, and to have gainful employment in a tough economy.

If you want to be a public interest lawyer from NYU Law plan on staying on the East coast, and only work in public interest positions. There is a rampant "holier than thou" attitude within the public interest community, and those from BigLaw will have an uphill battle in trying to transition from the "for profit" sector (i.e. the opposite side of the law). Furthermore, public interest is every bit as competitive as the private sector, and probably moreso given that the government is more broke than the private sector after the Bailout. Furthermore, charitable support for public interest has severely diminished since the recession onset.

Re: professors. They are all "rock stars," meaning they are all prolifically published and therefore respected in academia. However the teaching is hit-or-miss as a result of the hiring process' focusing exclusively on the resulting prestige for NYU, rather than focusing on promoting education. Adam Cox is a great new professor at the school who enjoys teaching and engaging students in the material. Barry Adler on the other hand is more of a well-respected writer. There is less diversity among the professors than there is in the student body and that is really saying something (Can Latinos still be found in NY?).

Re: career services. Not too helpful sadly, but they seem nice. Most of the time they will read your cover letter and/or resume to make sure it looks like every other students'. They will also send you a huge list of internet links (most of them outdated) that offer the same generic job locating tips that can be found on ehow, etc. They will tell you about the importance of "networking," or as they will explain it to you, introducing yourself to strangers with the goal of getting jobs but with the added caveat that you are not allowed to ask about jobs (i.e. the only damn thing you care about). I'm not really sure why any "career services" exist, other than to give motivational speeches. There is a fundamental disconnect at play here between the employed career counselors and the unemployed students/alumni.

My favorite part about the whole law school experience though is the fact that they did not even get my name right on my $200K law degree. Perfect. I prefer to think of my time at NYU Law as more of an expensive lesson in absurdity and farcical comedy.

My advice to law students (prospective or current), save your money and focus on doing what you love. Don't look to law school for security and employment because neither is guaranteed. You can count on the debt however. I wish the school wasn't so dismissive and that I was more steadfast about my request to withdraw from school after my 1L.

So with that in mind, I am also open to any questions about NYU Law. I promise to keep my answers short and honest.

Grades?

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:00 pm

BarelyKeepingUp wrote: I literally haven't met a student who actually landed their "first or second choice of employer."

Flame or you didn't try and meet people during your time there.

luthersloan
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby luthersloan » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:09 pm

Honestly, I never really understood what they meant by that, first or second choice employer. I mean, it does seem pretty unlikely that 95% of NYU students end up at the first or second choice firm or particular PI org, the nature of legal hiring being what it is. I always assumed that it referred to classes of employers, like 95% of people who wanted to work in PI got that, or 95% of people who wanted to work for firms got that. It is certainly not 95% of people who wanted to work for Watchtel got it.

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:24 pm

3.0, but this is definitely towards the bottom of the class given grade inflation.

I met plenty of people, but from my experience most students here didn't really socialize outside of class unless we are talking coffee and torts discussion in Golding. I was more into drinking, seeing live music, and trying to get laid (so sue me). I met many people however from Brooklyn Law and Cardozo from work, life, etc., and many other students will tell you that NYU Law students mostly have their heads in the books or in their journal work. I know the NYU reputation is a much cooler JFK Jr meets Gossip Girl thing, but it really was not as social as I expected. Hence, I hung out with Brooklyn Law students more often.

I'm not sure what NYU hopes to communicate with the whole 95% get their first or second choice job, but I do know the common interpretation would not be that 95% either get a BigLaw job or a public interest position as their first or second choice of a job. At least that is not how I read it.

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:32 pm

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:3.0, but this is definitely towards the bottom of the class given grade inflation.

I met plenty of people, but from my experience most students here didn't really socialize outside of class unless we are talking coffee and torts discussion in Golding. I was more into drinking, seeing live music, and trying to get laid (so sue me). I met many people however from Brooklyn Law and Cardozo from work, life, etc., and many other students will tell you that NYU Law students mostly have their heads in the books or in their journal work. I know the NYU reputation is a much cooler JFK Jr meets Gossip Girl thing, but it really was not as social as I expected. Hence, I hung out with Brooklyn Law students more often.

This has not been my experience at all, but from observations and speaking to 2Ls and 3Ls. Obviously people study hard, but that doesn't mean they don't go out and have a good time as well.

My next question: since you've been unemployed for a few years, what have you been doing?
Last edited by birdlaw117 on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:43 pm

I have been UNemployed for a couple years now, but I did have a job for three months at a public interest organization that NYU sponsored with a "Launch Grant" that paid about $1600/month (definitely not complaining about that). After reading an NYTimes article about law school transparency though, it became apparent that the school used the grant and the temp employment position to bolster their rankings for US News, probably crediting me as employed full-time in my "first or second choice of job." Other than the temp position, I have been volunteering with a friend's criminal defense practice helping when there is extra work, and doing pro-bono stuff (obviously sending resumes, etc.).

Any questions about the school?

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:48 pm

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:I have been UNemployed for a couple years now, but I did have a job for three months at a public interest organization that NYU sponsored with a "Launch Grant" that paid about $1600/month (definitely not complaining about that). After reading an NYTimes article about law school transparency though, it became apparent that the school used the grant and the temp employment position to bolster their rankings for US News, probably crediting me as employed full-time in my "first or second choice of job." Other than the temp position, I have been volunteering with a friend's criminal defense practice helping when there is extra work, and doing pro-bono stuff (obviously sending resumes, etc.).

Any questions about the school?

Sorry, typo. So you've just been looking for a job for 2 years and didn't settle into anything? Can you not get any legal job or are you just not applying to some that you don't want to do?

Also, favorite places around NYU to hang out? (Since you mostly did that rather than study)

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:03 pm

If you know of some opportunity, then by all means.... I know it is a little hard to believe something when it is rarely discussed openly.

For hang out spots around NYU, just depends on what you are into. I made the Peculier Pub my usual spot while I was there. Mercury Lounge and Cake Shop for shows. Go to the Comedy Cellar as often as possible (and get the free admission from their website).

TMDF
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby TMDF » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:07 pm

x

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:If you know of some opportunity, then by all means.... I know it is a little hard to believe something when it is rarely discussed openly.

For hang out spots around NYU, just depends on what you are into. I made the Peculier Pub my usual spot while I was there. Mercury Lounge and Cake Shop for shows. Go to the Comedy Cellar as often as possible (and get the free admission from their website).
Last edited by TMDF on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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birdlaw117
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:11 pm

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:If you know of some opportunity, then by all means.... I know it is a little hard to believe something when it is rarely discussed openly.

It was a question about whether you cannot find ANY legal employment, or the legal employment you're WILLING to work. No need to get confrontational about it. I feel like that is a legitimate question about your situation.

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:23 pm

Sorry if I came off as confrontational, but I only really wanted to talk about the school. I am willing to do anything really at this point if it can pay the rent and keep the lights on (including non-legal work).

2L Summer BigFirm. BigMistake unless you really want to work for that Big Firm. Public sector attorneys advised me at the time that it would be good training for great pay. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the work, but I found the work dull and contradictory of my values. That said, I really wish I would not have withdrew my candidacy after the Summer so that I could have at least received one of those cool severance packages after the economy collapsed.

Enough about me, any prospective or current students need to hear anything particular about the school?

slmc12
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby slmc12 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:08 pm

BarelyKeepingUp wrote:Sorry if I came off as confrontational, but I only really wanted to talk about the school. I am willing to do anything really at this point if it can pay the rent and keep the lights on (including non-legal work).

2L Summer BigFirm. BigMistake unless you really want to work for that Big Firm. Public sector attorneys advised me at the time that it would be good training for great pay. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the work, but I found the work dull and contradictory of my values. That said, I really wish I would not have withdrew my candidacy after the Summer so that I could have at least received one of those cool severance packages after the economy collapsed.

Enough about me, any prospective or current students need to hear anything particular about the school?


Did you participate in any public interest student groups or other extracurriculars that you enjoyed?

Were you able to work as an RA for a cool professor, or as an intern for a cool public interest organization, or do a clinic you liked? (and if so, can you tell us more about it?)

What were your favorite classes/professors and why?

Just curious, how many hours/week on average did you study?

BarelyKeepingUp
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby BarelyKeepingUp » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:11 pm

I didn't do as much extra-curricular (at school) as I probably should have done. At the time I was more worried about keeping up with the reading to make the grade. I worked for Andrew Cuomo at the AG's office during my 2L year in impact litigation, and I worked with the NLG as a legal observer acting as a watchdog monitoring protests. I also volunteered with the Bronx Defenders: awesome organization with awesome people, but really hard to get a permanent job. I briefly tried working with a professor as a RA, but the work was mostly cite checking and researching (that I avoided by not doing journal work) and was in corporations work that I didn't really dig (luckily I dig any and all work these days).

If I could do it again, I would probably try harder to make time for the Unemployment Action Center (no irony intended) as they got to work on client matters, and the Prisoners' Rights group educating inmates about legal rights, research, etc.

My favorite classes were the small seminars that allowed a true back-and-forth the way the Socratic method was intended. Derek Bell's Constitutional Issues class was awesome because it allowed students to act as the advocates for pending Supreme Court cases, and we would actually learn the law as an attorney handling such a case. Not sure if Bell is still teaching now though. Adam Cox is a great professor for immigration law, Kenji Yoshino for Con Law, Schulhofer for Crim Pro; all really great lecturers and really approachable. You could tell they still cared about the material, and didn't try to intimidate students in order to protect their egos.

On average I studied about 2-3 hours for every class meeting, reading and outlining; more during finals crunch. So about 20-25 hours a week studying generally, and I probably wouldn't do any better at law school if I had to do it again, or studied more. Still not sure how to prepare for law school exams, but I now understand I should have taken more practice tests throughout the semester and focused more on the bigger picture.

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spaceman82
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Re: NYU 3L relaxing...

Postby spaceman82 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:26 pm

If I could do it again, I would probably try harder to make time for the Unemployment Action Center (no irony intended) as they got to work on client matters, and the Prisoners' Rights group educating inmates about legal rights, research, etc.


Is this because you found those organizations to be interesting or because you think added involvement would have helped you with PI employment?


Do you think being on a journal would have helped at all with PI employment?

Do you think it was the grades or the 2L summer that hurt your job prospects more?

Any other advice on what to do or not to do at NYU for someone looking to get a job in PI?




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