NYU 3L relaxing... Forum

[J.Straw from Wichita]

What are interviews like? I would assume they would be like any other job interview, except that grades, rank and LR tend to matter so much. Do these credentials generally speak for themselves? Or do you really need to sell other parts of yourself, like personal attributes and work experience? How stressful is EIW and OCI or whatever and how much do you need to prepare?

How is the classroom environment at NYU? Do professors tend to be hard asses, cold-call a lot, and generally try to make you feel stupid? Or is it a more nurturing/collegial environment with less judgment attached to classroom performance? Who were your favorite professors?

How long were your outlines?

Thanks.

[twistedwrister]

EIW/OCI interviews are short (maybe 20 minutes each), so it's important to make a good first impression. You don't have to "sell yourself" if your grades are good, but if your grades are mediocre, you need to find another way to be memorable. I never really talked about my "personal attributes" (e.g., I'm a hard worker, or I work well with people, etc.) because it seemed forced and phony. I talked a lot about my previous jobs, my life in general, etc. EIW is stressful, but a lot of that is due to the sheer number of interviews (20-25 over three days). On average, I spent about 15-30 minutes researching each firm and putting together a "cheat sheet" of relevant info. You don't want to ramble on about your interest in, say, antitrust, when the firm does no antitrust work.

Most profs at NYU tend to use the "soft" socratic method. They call on students, but if the student doesn't know the answer, they just move on. It's not about embarrasing people, but rather to keep the class discussion lively and ensure that quiet students get to participate as well. In most of the classes I've taken, class participation counts. The prof can bump you up or down a half-letter grade for participation (or lack thereof). In seminars, the profs expect even more participation. I love the profs here. One of my favorites is Burt Neuborne.

I usually had multiple outlines. One long one (100 pages or so) with a table of contents; one short one (10-20 pages) that summarized the long outline; and one super short attack outline that helped me keep track of all the issues.

[NYC_7911]

General wisdom seems to say it's a lousy idea to do any law-related reading (apart from popular reads) before starting LS. A friend of mine, who went to LS 15 years ago (non-practicing) recommended I read some of the nutshell series in order to have a broad "forest for the trees" understanding of torts, contracts, etc. I'd do it if I thought it would be helpful, but I also suspect that coming in with an unclouded head might be better. Thoughts?

[BaiAilian2013]

I hate you.

I guess I'm taking both questions and insults...kidding. I assume you still have a final to take?

Yea we have civ pro tomorrow, lol.

I know this is hard to answer on account of people having the decency not to discuss it, but to whatever extent you can speak to it, does everybody have a decent job? Do you have to be pretty unlucky to strike out at OCI and mass mail etc., or is that not abnormal? Is it beyond hellish if you strike out, or do people tend to maintain the mindset that they will get something eventually?

None of my 3L friends are still looking for a job, but a few struck out at EIW last year. Pretty much everybody finds something, but not everyone gets what they want. That's the biggest difference from boom times. One friend of mine was really disappointed he didn't get biglaw after 2L, but he worked hard and snagged an offer from a V100 firm this year. It's certainly a lot less stressful if you land a 2L SA position. Last year, the classes were smaller, but the offer rates were really high (near 100% at most firms). I'm sure you've seen the numbers, but something like 70% of NYU's 2L class last year got at least one offer from EIW. The other 30% had to find a job another way. Anyway, by most accounts, legal hiring is at least stable and likely improving, so the chances of finding absolutely no job are relatively low.

Thanks!!

[J.Straw from Wichita]

General wisdom seems to say it's a lousy idea to do any law-related reading (apart from popular reads) before starting LS. A friend of mine, who went to LS 15 years ago (non-practicing) recommended I read some of the nutshell series in order to have a broad "forest for the trees" understanding of torts, contracts, etc. I'd do it if I thought it would be helpful, but I also suspect that coming in with an unclouded head might be better. Thoughts?

Also curious about 0L reading. I hear repeatedly that doing substantive 0L reading is pointless, but I would like to get a grasp on the very general concepts and also to start getting used to reading dense/boring legal material & just lube up my brain so it's easier to adjust once classes and assignments start. Does OP or anyone else have suggestions for reading material that would work well for these purposes? What "nutshell series" would you recommend?

[jfb]

Have a job lined up? Any major debt? Happy you went to NYU?

Job - yep. Clerking (D. Ct. in 2011, CoA in 2012), then NYC biglaw.
Debt - no. Worked for several years before law school, largely paid my own way.
Happy - yes. Met some good friends, built relationships with bigwig profs, and the job thing has turned out well.

Thanks for taking ?s. Do you believe that you would be happy with your choice of NYU even if you had major debt upon graduation??

[TLSNYC]

First off, thanks so much for offering to take some questions!

What kind of grades from NYU would it realistically take to be competitive for Federal D. Ct & CoA clerkships? Top 10%? 15? Or 5?

You clearly have had a successful law school experience, given the opportunities being presented to you, so I am wondering how much work this required in terms of let's say, hours a day your 1L? Did you typically have free time during the weekdays or only on weeknights, etc. In short, is a social life possible 1L?

[twistedwrister]

General wisdom seems to say it's a lousy idea to do any law-related reading (apart from popular reads) before starting LS. A friend of mine, who went to LS 15 years ago (non-practicing) recommended I read some of the nutshell series in order to have a broad "forest for the trees" understanding of torts, contracts, etc. I'd do it if I thought it would be helpful, but I also suspect that coming in with an unclouded head might be better. Thoughts?

Also curious about 0L reading. I hear repeatedly that doing substantive 0L reading is pointless, but I would like to get a grasp on the very general concepts and also to start getting used to reading dense/boring legal material & just lube up my brain so it's easier to adjust once classes and assignments start. Does OP or anyone else have suggestions for reading material that would work well for these purposes? What "nutshell series" would you recommend?

0L reading is a contentious issue. I didn't do any at all, and it turned out well for me (top 2% or so). But I also never used hornbooks/E&E's/any other supplements once I got to school. I really think it's a toss-up, but I would err on the side of doing less rather than more. The downsides to 0L reading are (1) profs teach different material and have their own views on the material, even in the core doctrinal classes, so a lot of what you read will be irrelevant or "wrong" (at least according to the prof), and (2) you're more likely to burn out earlier in the semester. Reading ahead may make you sound smarter in class for the first week or so, but other than that, I don't think it will help. I would suggest reading some fun, but well-written, non-legal books if you want to keep your mind going.

[twistedwrister]

Have a job lined up? Any major debt? Happy you went to NYU?

Job - yep. Clerking (D. Ct. in 2011, CoA in 2012), then NYC biglaw.
Debt - no. Worked for several years before law school, largely paid my own way.
Happy - yes. Met some good friends, built relationships with bigwig profs, and the job thing has turned out well.

Thanks for taking ?s. Do you believe that you would be happy with your choice of NYU even if you had major debt upon graduation??

No problem. In hindsight, yes, but that's because I have a high-paying job lined up. If I had $150 K in debt and no job prospects, I'd likely say no. Personally, I wouldn't have taken out $150K+ in loans to go to ANY law school (YHSCCN, etc.) because I already had a nice career going. On the other hand, NYU's LRAP is great, so loans aren't that big a deal if you want to (or are willing to) do PI-focused work.

[NYC_7911]

0L reading is a contentious issue. I didn't do any at all, and it turned out well for me (top 2% or so). But I also never used hornbooks/E&E's/any other supplements once I got to school. I really think it's a toss-up, but I would err on the side of doing less rather than more. The downsides to 0L reading are (1) profs teach different material and have their own views on the material, even in the core doctrinal classes, so a lot of what you read will be irrelevant or "wrong" (at least according to the prof), and (2) you're more likely to burn out earlier in the semester. Reading ahead may make you sound smarter in class for the first week or so, but other than that, I don't think it will help. I would suggest reading some fun, but well-written, non-legal books if you want to keep your mind going.

Okay, good to hear your perspective. I was leaning this way, but the overeager student in me was already browsing Amazon.

[twistedwrister]

First off, thanks so much for offering to take some questions!

What kind of grades from NYU would it realistically take to be competitive for Federal D. Ct & CoA clerkships? Top 10%? 15? Or 5?

You clearly have had a successful law school experience, given the opportunities being presented to you, so I am wondering how much work this required in terms of let's say, hours a day your 1L? Did you typically have free time during the weekdays or only on weeknights, etc. In short, is a social life possible 1L?

Re clerkships, it's really hard to tell. Once your grades are above a certain threshold, it's all about connections / profs willing to make a call for you. My educated guess:

"Feeder" CoA judges - top 10 to 20 students (top 2-5%) + big-time profs willing to call judges for you + published an interesting article/note. I'm clerking for a semi-feeder, and have some friends who are clerking for feeders, and we all fit this profile.

CoA - top 5-10% + great recs.

D. Ct. - top 20% to get a look. Of course, some districts (SDNY) are just as competitive as most CoA's.

Of course, these are just rough estimates. Just b/c you fall in one of the categories doesn't mean you will get a clerkship, it just means that you're competitive. Also, there are always a few people each year who score D. Ct. clerkships with mediocre grades. It's just a lot tougher, and you have to stand out in some other way.

1L, I worked maybe 4-6 hours a day outside of classes M-F and maybe 10 hours each weekend. It's a lot of work, but I still had time for fun.

[Sparda9000]

On the admissions website for NYU, it states that "Students are admitted to the Juris Doctor (J.D.) Program only on a full-time basis and only for the fall semester."
Is J.D. a separate program from what regular law students are accepted (no prior law school experience)? Do regular law students attend classes only in the fall? What about the spring? I hope to attend NYU in the future (after I take my LSATs and increase my gpa some more), but I just wanted to get those questions answered.

No, J.D. is the "regular" law school program. The website statement just means (1) NYU doesn't have a part-time program, and (2) no one can start at NYU at any time other than the fall semester (e.g., no summer or spring starters). Hope this helps.

Thank you for the speedy response and this does help me in clearing up my confusion. Some other few questions i have are:

I understand there isn't an official meal plan, but how much does food cost on a daily basis?
What type of food do you generally eat? I know NYC can get expensive when buying food, but are there any places that can feed you but for a pretty low price? (although I currently live in the Bronx, food prices in lower Manhattan can be a different beast altogether.)

[vicuna]

"Feeder" CoA judges - top 10 to 20 students (top 2-5%) + big-time profs willing to call judges for you + published an interesting article/note. I'm clerking for a semi-feeder, and have some friends who are clerking for feeders, and we all fit this profile.

CoA - top 5-10% + great recs.

D. Ct. - top 20% to get a look. Of course, some districts (SDNY) are just as competitive as most CoA's.

Are your friends who have also secured clerkships similarly interested in BigLaw afterward? What are the other most common options?

[thecilent]

1L, I worked maybe 4-6 hours a day outside of classes M-F and maybe 10 hours each weekend. It's a lot of work, but I still had time for fun.

Top 2% is very impressive.

Would you mind elaborating on what you think made you so successful 1L? You say you worked all these hours outside of class and never used supplements; so what did you spend most of your time doing, reading the casebooks, making your outlines? tyia.

[twistedwrister]

I don't live in Manhattan, so I'm not the best person to ask about food. There are plenty of good restaurants around NYU, though, so getting good food will never be a problem. It's expensive, no doubt about it. A slice of pizza costs $2 or so, a beer is $4-5, etc.

There is no common thread among my friends who are clerking. I'm going into litigation, as are a few others. However, some want to teach, and others are going into government.

I spent most of my time reading cases, taking notes on what I read, and combining my class notes and reading notes into a somewhat coherent outline. Later in the semester, I condensed my long outline into shorter version(s) and figured out how the course material all fit together. I have an analytical mind, and I tend to write clearly and concisely, which I think helped me succeed.

[twistedwrister]

I'm still relaxing, if anyone has post-holiday questions.

[sven]

did you choose nyu over columbia? if so, why? (i know that this question always appears on 'discuss your law school' threads about each of the two schools, but i'm always curious about it.)

thanks a bunch!

[twistedwrister]

did you choose nyu over columbia? if so, why? (i know that this question always appears on 'discuss your law school' threads about each of the two schools, but i'm always curious about it.)

thanks a bunch!

Yes, I chose NYU over Columbia (and Penn; didn't apply to Chicago). I just liked the vibe at NYU better. The students I met at NYU were friendlier, easier to talk to, and less dressed up. I felt more at home in the Village. Job/clerkship prospects are essentially a wash, so I went where I felt most comfortable. I walked away from NYU's ASW thinking "I can change the world!" In reality, I'll be pushing piles of cash from one corporation to another, but I can live with that...

[Richie Tenenbaum]

When did you apply for the fed. district court clerkship and then the COA clerkship? For those who want a clerkship, when do you recommend they start the application process?

[twistedwrister]

When did you apply for the fed. district court clerkship and then the COA clerkship? For those who want a clerkship, when do you recommend they start the application process?

I applied "on plan," i.e., at the end of the summer before my 3L year. I got the 2011 D. Ct. clerkship first and then the 2012 CoA clerkship. A lot of CoA judges prefer to hire someone who has (or will have) D. Ct. clerking experience, but I know a few 3L's who are clerking on the CoA in 2011.

It depends what you mean by "start the application process." I'd get to know a couple of your 2L professors well because you will need some strong faculty recommendations. During the summer before your 3L year, make sure to polish a writing sample (10-12 pages is the norm). The application process itself (writing cover letters, getting transcripts together, uploading the documents into OSCAR, etc.) isn't hard but it takes some time. I applied to about 100 judges, some on OSCAR and some paper, and getting the apps together took a few days of work late in the summer.

Some 3L's at other schools apply "off plan," usually in the late spring or early summer before 3L year. NYU discourages this and has a specific timetable that all current students must follow. The school won't release transcripts early, won't put letters of rec together early, etc. This puts all NYU students on even footing, but some judges have already filled their slots with alumni and "off plan" applicants by the time the formal hiring plan kicks in.

[thissideofsteinway]

What type of food do you generally eat? I know NYC can get expensive when buying food, but are there any places that can feed you but for a pretty low price? (although I currently live in the Bronx, food prices in lower Manhattan can be a different beast altogether.)

I'm not an NYU student, but I've always found Pizza Mercato on Waverly Place to have a nice satisfying slice. There's also Caffé Reggio on MacDougal Street, which is right around the corner from the law school. They've got some great and generally cheap Italian fare.

[treemeister]

Heya,

Thanks for posting!

Can you shed some light on prerequisite classes that are good to take earlier on? I chose property (i'm a 1L) for next semester. Is there a site that indicates which classes have prerequisites?

[twistedwrister]

Heya,

Thanks for posting!

Can you shed some light on prerequisite classes that are good to take earlier on? I chose property (i'm a 1L) for next semester. Is there a site that indicates which classes have prerequisites?

You're welcome! I'm not aware of any site that lists the prereqs for every course at NYU. I think you have to look-up each course individually to determine if the class has a pre- or co-req.

I also took property as a 1L. It's required, and I wanted to get it out of the way. Other classes that are good to take early on b/c they are prereqs for later classes: con law, income tax (if you are interested in taking any higher level tax courses), corporations, and a basic IP course (if you are interested in higher level patent/TM/copyright classes).

[treemeister]

thanks a lot!

also, random q- do you know people who have done "hard" IP law without an engineering background? I was a molecular bio major, so i have organic and biochem, but most of the IP lawyers i know that specialize in bio have some kind of postgrad school.

[sgtgrumbles]

Of the people you know who are doing public interest work, have any paid full price intending to fall back on LRAP? I realize that's a sensitive topic and may not come up in casual conversation, but I'd appreciate any insight you might have. I received $54k from Michigan and wonder if it's completely crazy to pass that up to do PI at NYU at (presumably) sticker. I'd prefer NYU for its job prospects, PI resources, faculty, and centers and journals, but I don't want to drown it debt, though FWIW I've lived in NYC for the last two years on a salary of under $40k.

/ramble