Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:48 pm

ECRBaller wrote:
Thank you. As long as I can get something noteworthy in LA i'll be happy. How about big law prospects in LA after law school? I want to eventually settle down over here. Thanks again for your help! You guys are great.


So, just an overview for anybody reading who doesn't know much about EIP, sorry if it's redundant for you.

First,terms:
1L summer=summer between 1L and 2L
2L summer=summer between 2L and 3L
OCI=On-Campus Interviews. At Harvard, we call it the Early Interview Program (EIP). But, call it OCI when you talk to people not familiar with Harvard.

1L summer most people do something public-interest related either with a non-profit org or with the government (USAO, DOJ, etc.) A small number do in-house work for private corporations. Some people do firm work, but not many, and most are minorities and/or people who have work experience along the lines of a couple years at McKinsey or Goldman Sachs.

2L summer most people do firms and most get these internships through OCI/EIP. If you don't get one through OCI/EIP, your odds are much worse, but you have to still keep trying, people do get jobs outside of OCI/EIP(more tips about that in the legal employment forum of TLS). Then, ideally, at the end of the summer you get a job offer to come back full time.

For those who don't get that offer, or who never got a summer associate job for 2L summer, odds of biglaw are far and long (though worse for the latter than the former). It matters why you didn't get the offer--if your firm collapses (like Dewey or Howrey), your odds are better. There's a VERY VERY tiny 3L on-campus interview process, but it's mostly people trading up because they didn't like their firm from their 2nd summer. People who just didn't get a summer job their 2nd summer can sometimes get stuff here, but eh.

So, going back to your question, if you didn't get an LA biglaw SA the first time around, well, it depends where you ended up instead. If you get an offer from a biglaw firm in another city (like, NYC), at a firm with an LA office, you can probably switch offices. You might be able to lateral a few years down the road, more likely if you do substantial work in NYC that is also in demand in LA. You might also try clerking in the 9th Circuit and then going into biglaw. I suppose you could also try to work for govt. like the USAO in the area and then try to switch in. It's a lot easier to just get in at OCI than the other routes (clerking typically needs better grades than biglaw, so do a lot of good govt. positions).

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mjitbswyd
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby mjitbswyd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:25 am

Thank you all for taking questions. These are really healpful.

I also have a question about this topic: if I do RA work for a law school professor for 1L summer, will it be viewed negatively (compared to PI jobs in NGO or government) by biglaws during EIP? Thanks!

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:32 am

mjitbswyd wrote:Thank you all for taking questions. These are really healpful.

I also have a question about this topic: if I do RA work for a law school professor for 1L summer, will it be viewed negatively (compared to PI jobs in NGO or government) by biglaws during EIP? Thanks!


For better or worse, it's considered a fallback option that ppl who couldn't secure other jobs do. Ideally you do it with a prof who does work that fits in with your interests if you have to. The prof might have useful connections to helping you get a job. You can RA during the school year, too, to get the same sort of benefits, though, so yeah...I'd avoid if you can. That's what OCS told me anyway.

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mjitbswyd
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby mjitbswyd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:23 am

acrossthelake wrote:
mjitbswyd wrote:Thank you all for taking questions. These are really healpful.

I also have a question about this topic: if I do RA work for a law school professor for 1L summer, will it be viewed negatively (compared to PI jobs in NGO or government) by biglaws during EIP? Thanks!


For better or worse, it's considered a fallback option that ppl who couldn't secure other jobs do. Ideally you do it with a prof who does work that fits in with your interests if you have to. The prof might have useful connections to helping you get a job. You can RA during the school year, too, to get the same sort of benefits, though, so yeah...I'd avoid if you can. That's what OCS told me anyway.


Thank you! So this means law professors have hard time finding RAs (at least from law school)..

ignatiusr
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ignatiusr » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:31 am

To what extent do you think the prestige of your 1L public interest work contributes to your 2L SA success? I've considered working for a small law center in Appalachia my 1L summer--it would be rewarding work strictly from a PI perspective, but carries no prestige and is nowhere near the regions where I would likely apply for work my 2L summer. Do you think this would significantly reduce my chances at EIP?

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nixxers
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nixxers » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:15 am

ignatiusr wrote:To what extent do you think the prestige of your 1L public interest work contributes to your 2L SA success? I've considered working for a small law center in Appalachia my 1L summer--it would be rewarding work strictly from a PI perspective, but carries no prestige and is nowhere near the regions where I would likely apply for work my 2L summer. Do you think this would significantly reduce my chances at EIP?


No.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Doorkeeper » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:32 am

acrossthelake wrote:
mjitbswyd wrote:Thank you all for taking questions. These are really healpful.

I also have a question about this topic: if I do RA work for a law school professor for 1L summer, will it be viewed negatively (compared to PI jobs in NGO or government) by biglaws during EIP? Thanks!


For better or worse, it's considered a fallback option that ppl who couldn't secure other jobs do. Ideally you do it with a prof who does work that fits in with your interests if you have to. The prof might have useful connections to helping you get a job. You can RA during the school year, too, to get the same sort of benefits, though, so yeah...I'd avoid if you can. That's what OCS told me anyway.

To follow this up, if someone had no interest in taking part in EIP, would working with a professor during 1L summer negatively affect any other employment opportunities (government, NGO, etc)?

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:50 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
mjitbswyd wrote:Thank you all for taking questions. These are really healpful.

I also have a question about this topic: if I do RA work for a law school professor for 1L summer, will it be viewed negatively (compared to PI jobs in NGO or government) by biglaws during EIP? Thanks!


For better or worse, it's considered a fallback option that ppl who couldn't secure other jobs do. Ideally you do it with a prof who does work that fits in with your interests if you have to. The prof might have useful connections to helping you get a job. You can RA during the school year, too, to get the same sort of benefits, though, so yeah...I'd avoid if you can. That's what OCS told me anyway.

To follow this up, if someone had no interest in taking part in EIP, would working with a professor during 1L summer negatively affect any other employment opportunities (government, NGO, etc)?


I mean, if you want to work for the government or an NGO after grad why wouldn't you work for the government or NGO during 1L summer? You can RA during the school year (I did/do), whereas it's difficult to fit an internship around your school schedule. It just seems inefficient. If you don't know specifically which other employment opportunities you want, 1L summer is a great time to explore one. If you know specifically, it's a great time to bolster your resume. Why RA for a prof instead? I'm just speaking of my opinion here, which isn't gospel, but I'd think a candidate who did their 1L summer doing an internship with an organization like the one they're applying for after graduation would seem more attractive than one who was an RA for a prof.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Nom Sawyer » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:05 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
mjitbswyd wrote:Thank you all for taking questions. These are really healpful.

I also have a question about this topic: if I do RA work for a law school professor for 1L summer, will it be viewed negatively (compared to PI jobs in NGO or government) by biglaws during EIP? Thanks!


For better or worse, it's considered a fallback option that ppl who couldn't secure other jobs do. Ideally you do it with a prof who does work that fits in with your interests if you have to. The prof might have useful connections to helping you get a job. You can RA during the school year, too, to get the same sort of benefits, though, so yeah...I'd avoid if you can. That's what OCS told me anyway.

To follow this up, if someone had no interest in taking part in EIP, would working with a professor during 1L summer negatively affect any other employment opportunities (government, NGO, etc)?


I mean, if you want to work for the government or an NGO after grad why wouldn't you work for the government or NGO during 1L summer? You can RA during the school year (I did/do), whereas it's difficult to fit an internship around your school schedule. It just seems inefficient. If you don't know specifically which other employment opportunities you want, 1L summer is a great time to explore one. If you know specifically, it's a great time to bolster your resume. Why RA for a prof instead? I'm just speaking of my opinion here, which isn't gospel, but I'd think a candidate who did their 1L summer doing an internship with an organization like the one they're applying for after graduation would seem more attractive than one who was an RA for a prof.


This is seconded... Its very easy to get a RA position with a prof. during the school year and on the fringes of summer. Don't make it your only or main position for the summer though, there's so many different type of opportunities which will all provide a better starting point for later employement (be it EIP or public interest).

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GeePee
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby GeePee » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:28 pm

nixxers wrote:
ignatiusr wrote:To what extent do you think the prestige of your 1L public interest work contributes to your 2L SA success? I've considered working for a small law center in Appalachia my 1L summer--it would be rewarding work strictly from a PI perspective, but carries no prestige and is nowhere near the regions where I would likely apply for work my 2L summer. Do you think this would significantly reduce my chances at EIP?


No.

Exactly. In many ways, really hands-on experience can sound really impressive at OCI if you're good at framing it and you do have a significant amount of substantive work to talk about. Sure, I got a couple of douchy OCI interviewers that will make comments about how it sounds like a safety job or some nonsense -- let's just say there was about a 0% chance that I accepted their callback offers after they decided to bash my 1L employer for no reason, so maybe it was positive -- but after you explain:

1. this was the job you wanted, regardless of the availability of other, more "prestigious" (lol, this is 1L summer) positions
2. you got way more substantive experience than your friends that worked at fancy-sounding jobs like the DOJ (note: I'm not saying that DOJ positions are bad, many of them are awesome, but I do know some people that were very underwhelmed by their experiences in certain divisions) that ended up doing mostly nothing for the summer
3. you have gained some perspective or understanding of law that you wouldn't have otherwise had the chance to do,

then it will actually turn out to be a good thing. Bottom line is: you're better off doing something that you will push to be a valuable experience your 1L summer rather than doing something that sounds important, but you're not passionate about, and actually turns out to be very unrewarding.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:32 pm

Is it common for students to get the max grant of 30k if their parents make less than 60k? Or is the 30k grant unusual and most people get far less?

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:50 pm

Also, for students receiving the max financial aid grant, do you lose it for 3L year if you do a big law SA 2L summer?

delusional
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby delusional » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:53 pm

nonprofit-prophet wrote:Also, for students receiving the max financial aid grant, do you lose it for 3L year if you do a big law SA 2L summer?
I think that you would lose something like 90% of it above 7500, but if you have particular expenses, they could be added to the 7500. But I'm not 100% certain of that.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:57 pm

delusional wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Also, for students receiving the max financial aid grant, do you lose it for 3L year if you do a big law SA 2L summer?
I think that you would lose something like 90% of it above 7500, but if you have particular expenses, they could be added to the 7500. But I'm not 100% certain of that.



http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ncome.html
Delusional got the summary about right though.

PMan99
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby PMan99 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:00 am

You're expected to contribute ~15k from a 10-week biglaw summer.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:02 am

acrossthelake wrote:
delusional wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Also, for students receiving the max financial aid grant, do you lose it for 3L year if you do a big law SA 2L summer?
I think that you would lose something like 90% of it above 7500, but if you have particular expenses, they could be added to the 7500. But I'm not 100% certain of that.



http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ncome.html
Delusional got the summary about right though.


ok so if I got 33k for 2L, I'd only have about 10k for 3L?

PMan99
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby PMan99 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:04 am

nonprofit-prophet wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
delusional wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Also, for students receiving the max financial aid grant, do you lose it for 3L year if you do a big law SA 2L summer?
I think that you would lose something like 90% of it above 7500, but if you have particular expenses, they could be added to the 7500. But I'm not 100% certain of that.



http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ncome.html
Delusional got the summary about right though.


ok so if I got 33k for 2L, I'd only have about 10k for 3L?


You'll have more. Fin. aid statements literally came out today and the contribution is ~15k out of 30.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby fatduck » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:52 am

nonprofit-prophet wrote:Is it common for students to get the max grant of 30k if their parents make less than 60k? Or is the 30k grant unusual and most people get far less?

piggybacking on this, does anyone know at what point need-based aid is basically not gonna happen? >$100k parental income?

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby thederangedwang » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:56 am

fatduck wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Is it common for students to get the max grant of 30k if their parents make less than 60k? Or is the 30k grant unusual and most people get far less?

piggybacking on this, does anyone know at what point need-based aid is basically not gonna happen? >$100k parental income?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ytype.html

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fatduck
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby fatduck » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:59 am

thederangedwang wrote:
fatduck wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Is it common for students to get the max grant of 30k if their parents make less than 60k? Or is the 30k grant unusual and most people get far less?

piggybacking on this, does anyone know at what point need-based aid is basically not gonna happen? >$100k parental income?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ytype.html

nice. i'm not used to schools being so FORTHCOMING

thederangedwang
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby thederangedwang » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:01 am

fatduck wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:
fatduck wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:Is it common for students to get the max grant of 30k if their parents make less than 60k? Or is the 30k grant unusual and most people get far less?

piggybacking on this, does anyone know at what point need-based aid is basically not gonna happen? >$100k parental income?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... ytype.html

nice. i'm not used to schools being so FORTHCOMING

hls probably just got tired of rich douchebags applying for fin aid and so they just said, if you make more than 180k, dont bother

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fatduck
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby fatduck » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:07 am

thederangedwang wrote:
fatduck wrote:nice. i'm not used to schools being so FORTHCOMING

hls probably just got tired of rich douchebags applying for fin aid and so they just said, if you make more than 180k, dont bother

makes sense. i'll probably still apply anyway, though, just in case. if i were born 15 days sooner i'd be good to go :/

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larsoner
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby larsoner » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:10 am

Thanks guys, this is all really helpful.

I don't think this question has been addressed yet in this thread (but point me to the right page if I'm wrong.) How hard/competitive is it to stay in Boston 1L and 2L summers? I'm not from Boston and have no previous ties there, but my fiance is moving out there with me and will have to be there at least 1L summer and probably 2L summer (she's going into a 2 year grad program and will probably try to get a job in Boston when she's finished so that she'll be there as I finish up law school.) I imagine there are a lot of Harvard people who want to stick around for similar reasons and a lot of them might be older with families, job experience, etc. Will I be at a big disadvantage in Boston as a K-JD?

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:36 am

larsoner wrote:Thanks guys, this is all really helpful.

I don't think this question has been addressed yet in this thread (but point me to the right page if I'm wrong.) How hard/competitive is it to stay in Boston 1L and 2L summers? I'm not from Boston and have no previous ties there, but my fiance is moving out there with me and will have to be there at least 1L summer and probably 2L summer (she's going into a 2 year grad program and will probably try to get a job in Boston when she's finished so that she'll be there as I finish up law school.) I imagine there are a lot of Harvard people who want to stick around for similar reasons and a lot of them might be older with families, job experience, etc. Will I be at a big disadvantage in Boston as a K-JD?


Ropes & Gray and WilmerHale tend to take a lot of HLS students, and I know they don't all have strong Boston ties other than going to school at HLS. Getting a public interest summer job in Boston shouldn't be too hard, and then once you have that + your fiance wanting to stay here, your ties should be fairly convincing.

AllTheLawz
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby AllTheLawz » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:56 am

acrossthelake wrote:
larsoner wrote:Thanks guys, this is all really helpful.

I don't think this question has been addressed yet in this thread (but point me to the right page if I'm wrong.) How hard/competitive is it to stay in Boston 1L and 2L summers? I'm not from Boston and have no previous ties there, but my fiance is moving out there with me and will have to be there at least 1L summer and probably 2L summer (she's going into a 2 year grad program and will probably try to get a job in Boston when she's finished so that she'll be there as I finish up law school.) I imagine there are a lot of Harvard people who want to stick around for similar reasons and a lot of them might be older with families, job experience, etc. Will I be at a big disadvantage in Boston as a K-JD?


Ropes & Gray and WilmerHale tend to take a lot of HLS students, and I know they don't all have strong Boston ties other than going to school at HLS. Getting a public interest summer job in Boston shouldn't be too hard, and then once you have that + your fiance wanting to stay here, your ties should be fairly convincing.


Yeah there are at least like 60 of us here in Boston for 1L summer.. Ropes & Gray and WilmerHale are two of the three big guns (with Goodwin being the third) but WilmerHale is pretty selective in terms of both grades and personality/background, and Ropes & Gray definitely isn't a good fit for all personality types. There are a fair amount of firms in Boston that are fairly large sized but not gigantic that pay $145k+. Coming from Harvard, Ive been told that extra ties are not really a necessity but it is important to understand the type of legal practices that are big in Boston. Regardless, it shouldn't be that huge of a deal as long as grades arent completely terrible and you arent super awkward.




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