Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
a corsair
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:16 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby a corsair » Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:50 am

Are you able to do the law review competition remotely? Do most people stay on campus because it's easier to focus without distractions?

User avatar
flyingboy
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:37 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby flyingboy » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:15 am

a corsair wrote:Are you able to do the law review competition remotely? Do most people stay on campus because it's easier to focus without distractions?


You can do it remotely after you pick up the packet. Some people did it that way, but I think most decided to stay on campus.

lawlorbust
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawlorbust » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:34 am

Just don't leave your work lying around unattended.

Seriously ...

User avatar
foxes
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:52 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby foxes » Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:29 pm

flyingboy wrote:
a corsair wrote:Are you able to do the law review competition remotely? Do most people stay on campus because it's easier to focus without distractions?


You can do it remotely after you pick up the packet. Some people did it that way, but I think most decided to stay on campus.

i was going to stay on campus but dorm move out is the day right after 1L finals end :/ seems like too much hassle to get somewhere else to stay for the write on, so ill prob just do it at home...

robotrick
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:53 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby robotrick » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:18 pm

foxes wrote:
flyingboy wrote:
a corsair wrote:Are you able to do the law review competition remotely? Do most people stay on campus because it's easier to focus without distractions?


You can do it remotely after you pick up the packet. Some people did it that way, but I think most decided to stay on campus.

i was going to stay on campus but dorm move out is the day right after 1L finals end :/ seems like too much hassle to get somewhere else to stay for the write on, so ill prob just do it at home...

You can get a dorm extension for write on. I remember getting more info about that late in the semester last year.

ValeVale
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:23 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ValeVale » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:03 pm

When can we expect interviews to be done for EIP? Will there be any time in between the last interview and the start of class for a potential vacation?

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:57 pm

ValeVale wrote:When can we expect interviews to be done for EIP? Will there be any time in between the last interview and the start of class for a potential vacation?

Callbacks can go until classes start depending on your market. Planning a vacation in advance is probably not a very good idea, but you could take advantage of the callbacks to stay in New York or California for a while.

If you only bid New York you could probably get away with a vacay the last week of August. Chicago, DC, and California not so much.

User avatar
radio1nowhere
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby radio1nowhere » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:53 pm

What do students with 9-month leases usually do with their stuff over the summer? Is there a decent self-storage place around campus?

Goldie
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Goldie » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:43 pm

TripTrip wrote:
ValeVale wrote:When can we expect interviews to be done for EIP? Will there be any time in between the last interview and the start of class for a potential vacation?

Callbacks can go until classes start depending on your market. Planning a vacation in advance is probably not a very good idea, but you could take advantage of the callbacks to stay in New York or California for a while.

If you only bid New York you could probably get away with a vacay the last week of August. Chicago, DC, and California not so much.


I don't think my experience was typical, but I was having callbacks on a nearly weekly basis through September and didn't receive/accept an offer in my target market (DC) until October. So I'd definitely leave my schedule as open as possible.

User avatar
Mack.Hambleton
Posts: 5417
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:09 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:42 pm

Is there any good reason to do the write on if just interested in transactional (and not particularly interested in journal work)?

tomwatts
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:01 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:33 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Is there any good reason to do the write on if just interested in transactional (and not particularly interested in journal work)?

This might be a contrarian view, but I think the main reason to try out for law review is that you want to be on law review. If you're not interested, don't do it.

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:40 pm

tomwatts wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Is there any good reason to do the write on if just interested in transactional (and not particularly interested in journal work)?

This might be a contrarian view, but I think the main reason to try out for law review is that you want to be on law review. If you're not interested, don't do it.

+1 to tomwatts.

If you control for grades and 1L journal participation, law review has a negligible impact on EIP outcomes. If you don't want to clerk and aren't just interested in prestige, the only real reason to do law review is because you want to do law review.

lawlorbust
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawlorbust » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:06 pm

TripTrip wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Is there any good reason to do the write on if just interested in transactional (and not particularly interested in journal work)?

This might be a contrarian view, but I think the main reason to try out for law review is that you want to be on law review. If you're not interested, don't do it.

+1 to tomwatts.

If you control for grades and 1L journal participation, law review has a negligible impact on EIP outcomes. If you don't want to clerk and aren't just interested in prestige, the only real reason to do law review is because you want to do law review.


Eh, my guess is that HLR has some impact even on EIP outcomes, particularly the tippy-top ones. Grades are almost always going to be the necessary and sufficient condition for getting a CB. But firms are selective past grades, and HLR membership is a good soft factor the same way previous work experience, good interviewing skills, etc., are.

Conversely, I'm not sure what you mean by "controlling for 1L journal participation." Now that is something that almost certainly doesn't have an effect on EIP outcomes.



ETA: all that said, I agree strongly with tomwatts. HLR's time commitment outweighs whatever boost you get for EIP. Do it if you want to do it. (Or at the very least, as TripTrip points out, if your goals are more closely aligned with the benefits of membership.)

nerd1
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 11:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nerd1 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:12 pm

TripTrip wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Is there any good reason to do the write on if just interested in transactional (and not particularly interested in journal work)?

This might be a contrarian view, but I think the main reason to try out for law review is that you want to be on law review. If you're not interested, don't do it.

+1 to tomwatts.

If you control for grades and 1L journal participation, law review has a negligible impact on EIP outcomes. If you don't want to clerk and aren't just interested in prestige, the only real reason to do law review is because you want to do law review.


What do you mean by 1L journal participation? Because almost all 1Ls subcite, the journal participation element cannot give anyone an advantage. You know that 1L journal participation and law review are not related right? Grades and the competition score determine whether one gets to be on the law review or not.

Obviously grades are important, but even if we control for grades, I am pretty sure law review has an independent effect. Firms appreciate the signal that law review competition performance provides.

that_other_guy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby that_other_guy » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:02 pm

Recent admit here. I'm visiting the school for ASW around April. What should I wear? Do I need to bring a suit with me? Are jeans and a t-shirt/sweater okay? What do students typically wear to class, as well? I know that in business school people tend towards suits.

Thanks.

lawlorbust
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawlorbust » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:06 pm

that_other_guy wrote:Recent admit here. I'm visiting the school for ASW around April. What should I wear? Do I need to bring a suit with me? Are jeans and a t-shirt/sweater okay? What do students typically wear to class, as well? I know that in business school people tend towards suits.

Thanks.


Whatever you want to wear. Yes, t-shirt + jeans for ASW is fine; your 1L section will have the entire range from t-shirts and flip-flops (but very rare) to a full suit (but very rare) ... and no one pays attention.

that_other_guy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby that_other_guy » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:07 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
that_other_guy wrote:Recent admit here. I'm visiting the school for ASW around April. What should I wear? Do I need to bring a suit with me? Are jeans and a t-shirt/sweater okay? What do students typically wear to class, as well? I know that in business school people tend towards suits.

Thanks.


Whatever you want to wear. Yes, t-shirt + jeans for ASW is fine; your 1L section will have the entire range from t-shirts and flip-flops (but very rare) to a full suit (but very rare) ... and no one pays attention.


Thanks.

Same applies for the ASW?

lawlorbust
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawlorbust » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:15 pm

Goldie wrote:
TripTrip wrote:
ValeVale wrote:When can we expect interviews to be done for EIP? Will there be any time in between the last interview and the start of class for a potential vacation?

Callbacks can go until classes start depending on your market. Planning a vacation in advance is probably not a very good idea, but you could take advantage of the callbacks to stay in New York or California for a while.

If you only bid New York you could probably get away with a vacay the last week of August. Chicago, DC, and California not so much.


I don't think my experience was typical, but I was having callbacks on a nearly weekly basis through September and didn't receive/accept an offer in my target market (DC) until October. So I'd definitely leave my schedule as open as possible.


Not bad advice to plan conservatively, but if you really wanted to block x number of days during that stretch, that's also quite easy to do. Firms tend to be very flexible in arranging interview dates. (But caveat: different markets have different "timetables," and my experience is from interviewing at big firms in Chi/NY only.)

User avatar
gamerish
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:37 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby gamerish » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:18 am

Two related questions from a 0L:

First, is the often-quoted line that median at H/slightly below median (straight Ps) can still land a BigLaw gig more the result of the “power” of Harvard itself, or that at the level of applicant that Harvard generally pulls from it’s just expected that they will have certain backgrounds and experiences that are conducive to pursuing a career in BigLaw? For example, I know an enormous portion of the class has prior work experience. I’m concerned because, even by K-JD standards (which I am), my resume is… lackluster due to a medical issue that resulted in a multi-year professional gap that’s only been book-ended by a job I got quite recently. I know a lot of people come into schools like HLS thinking they’re the underachiever of the group, but it’s hard to shake the feeling that I’ll be very much behind the curve when it comes to substantive things like work experience and pre-law school extracurriculars, which I imagine would hurt when EIP rolls around.

And second, is the hype that Harvard gets for its placement in FedGov mainly derived from placement in the Honors program, or does the advantage carry over to people who take the clerkship -> biglaw ->fedgov route? Even then, is the boon mostly derived from HLS’ strong clerkship placement? FedGov litigation is my end game and I do have some connections but nothing compelling enough that I feel I can really count on them to do much for me, especially given my dearth of experience relative to what I imagine my peers would bring to the table. I’ll note that I have no illusions of landing an Honors spot so I'm mostly curious about the BigLaw path. I did read the HLS “Fast Track to a USAO” paper that was linked itt but it didn’t reveal much in the way of this kind of information.

I’ve read quite a lot of this this thread and came across some similar questions and useful information but nothing addressing these exact points, so apologies if I’m blind and this has actually been answered ad nauseam. Thanks.

tomwatts
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:01 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:44 am

gamerish wrote:First, is the often-quoted line that median at H/slightly below median (straight Ps) can still land a BigLaw gig more the result of the “power” of Harvard itself, or that at the level of applicant that Harvard generally pulls from it’s just expected that they will have certain backgrounds and experiences that are conducive to pursuing a career in BigLaw? For example, I know an enormous portion of the class has prior work experience. I’m concerned because, even by K-JD standards (which I am), my resume is… lackluster due to a medical issue that resulted in a multi-year professional gap that’s only been book-ended by a job I got quite recently. I know a lot of people come into schools like HLS thinking they’re the underachiever of the group, but it’s hard to shake the feeling that I’ll be very much behind the curve when it comes to substantive things like work experience and pre-law school extracurriculars, which I imagine would hurt when EIP rolls around.

It's Harvard, not prior work experience. K-JDs aren't expected to have much work experience anyway (internships during college? A lot of people's internships during college are pretty meh anyway), and pre-law extracurriculars probably don't do much of anything at all for your law employment prospects.

Do something law-related during your 1L summer and you'll be fine (and will look like pretty much every other K-JD).

gamerish wrote:And second, is the hype that Harvard gets for its placement in FedGov mainly derived from placement in the Honors program, or does the advantage carry over to people who take the clerkship -> biglaw ->fedgov route? Even then, is the boon mostly derived from HLS’ strong clerkship placement? FedGov litigation is my end game and I do have some connections but nothing compelling enough that I feel I can really count on them to do much for me, especially given my dearth of experience relative to what I imagine my peers would bring to the table. I’ll note that I have no illusions of landing an Honors spot so I'm mostly curious about the BigLaw path. I did read the HLS “Fast Track to a USAO” paper that was linked itt but it didn’t reveal much in the way of this kind of information.

The Harvard name will help you for the rest of your career. For better or for worse, your school name goes on your resume forever, and people still continue to care for years after you graduate. Any path that takes you to the federal government will be aided by the Harvard name.

I don't have specific numbers — maybe someone else does — but the benefit is strong clerkship placement, strong biglaw placement, and strong fedgov placement. It's at every single step.

(Also, some of your peers will have some kind of relevant experience, but many will not. Don't worry about it. That's not going to be a deal breaker in government hiring.)

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:19 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
TripTrip wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Is there any good reason to do the write on if just interested in transactional (and not particularly interested in journal work)?

This might be a contrarian view, but I think the main reason to try out for law review is that you want to be on law review. If you're not interested, don't do it.

+1 to tomwatts.

If you control for grades and 1L journal participation, law review has a negligible impact on EIP outcomes. If you don't want to clerk and aren't just interested in prestige, the only real reason to do law review is because you want to do law review.


Eh, my guess is that HLR has some impact even on EIP outcomes, particularly the tippy-top ones. Grades are almost always going to be the necessary and sufficient condition for getting a CB. But firms are selective past grades, and HLR membership is a good soft factor the same way previous work experience, good interviewing skills, etc., are.

Based on your comments, I just re-ran the same analysis using only "tippy-top" students (email me if you want to know my definition of tippy top or the n associated with it; I can't post those publicly). For screener conversions (converting EIP screeners to callbacks), after grades are controlled for law review participation was about equally irrelevant for the group of all students with lesser grades than the top third (coefficients of .0019785 and -.00333, respectively). If we don't control for grades, law review becomes more important for the group with worse grades (coefficients of .194458 for all and .0506537 for top third). The coefficients are more similar for callback-->offer conversions, but they stray the same way (law review being more important for gen pop than the top tier students).

lawlorbust wrote:Conversely, I'm not sure what you mean by "controlling for 1L journal participation." Now that is something that almost certainly doesn't have an effect on EIP outcomes.

I mean conducting a multiple regression analysis and including 1L journal participation. This isn't the same as controlling; forgive me for flippantly using the term. But to answer your "certainly doesn't have an effect on EIP outcomes:" it definitely does. Specifically at the screener conversion stage. Subciting for a journal gives you the same statistical edge as getting another H instead of a P, and at this stage is a much more reliable predictor of success than is law review membership. At the callback stage, journal participation importance is the equivalent of about 2 Hs, but law review participation becomes more relevant again.

nerd1 wrote:What do you mean by 1L journal participation? Because almost all 1Ls subcite, the journal participation element cannot give anyone an advantage.

I do mean subcite. Not everyone subcites; that's why it gives you an advantage. Other schools don't allow 1Ls to participate on journals (even subciting) so it looks good to interviewers. Perhaps to be more accurate, I should say "not subciting puts you at a disadvantage." Because you're right: the vast majority of 1Ls subcite, so the stats I'm seeing are mostly skewed by the minority that don't subcite performing poorly at EIP.

nerd1 wrote:You know that 1L journal participation and law review are not related right? Grades and the competition score determine whether one gets to be on the law review or not.

They're correlated. That's why it's useful to substitute one for the other instead of analyzing them both together to reduce the problems associated with multicollinearity. Granted, law review and grades are definitely collinear. If you regress screener conversions against law review and journal participation independently, law review participation is a much better predictor. But grades are more useful than law review participation, and regressing grades with journal participation is more useful than with law review.

nerd1 wrote:Obviously grades are important, but even if we control for grades, I am pretty sure law review has an independent effect. Firms appreciate the signal that law review competition performance provides.

Sure, it does have an independent effect. But, as mentioned above, the effect isn't very big. It's on par with "does this person know how to wear a suit?" There are plenty of awesome opportunities at Harvard Law School, and I'm saying the effort->reward payout for law review participation with respect to specifically EIP is not worth it based on the data I'm looking at. If you've got nothing else going on or are interested for non-EIP reasons, it could totally make sense. But the idea that everyone who wants to be competitive at EIP should attempt the law review competition is absurd.

User avatar
leslieknope
Posts: 1091
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:53 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby leslieknope » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:14 am

Do I need to pick up the HLR packet in person, or is it downloadable remotely?

hlsperson123
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:34 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby hlsperson123 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:20 am

TripTrip wrote:stats.


Thanks TripTrip for yet another amazing stats post! Though there may be a confounding factor: students on HLR might have bid more selective firms than they otherwise would have given their grades.

tomwatts
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:01 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:55 am

leslieknope wrote:Do I need to pick up the HLR packet in person, or is it downloadable remotely?

It can be snail-mailed to a distant location. You have to request this in advance and, I believe, pay the postage.

Most basic HLR competition questions are easily Google-able, by the way, if you don't want to wait for a response here.

tomwatts
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:01 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:58 am

hlsperson123 wrote:
TripTrip wrote:stats.


Thanks TripTrip for yet another amazing stats post! Though there may be a confounding factor: students on HLR might have bid more selective firms than they otherwise would have given their grades.

Yeah, I was wondering what variables your dataset has. Do you have, for an individual student, grades + offer from specific firm (yes/no) + HLR (yes/no)? If so, you should be able to compare whether a given firm is more likely to take someone given HLR. If it's just grades + number of offers, not so much.




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests