Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawschool22 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:58 pm

LS2515 wrote:What is going on with grades? Has the initial registrar email even gone out yet?


If past history is any indication, odds are they'll come out sometime this week between Tuesday and Thursday.

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dylar
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby dylar » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:00 pm

Does anyone know if there are DS grades for LRW?

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:38 pm

dylar wrote:Does anyone know if there are DS grades for LRW?


There are.

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dylar
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby dylar » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:46 pm

despina wrote:
dylar wrote:Does anyone know if there are DS grades for LRW?


There are.


thanks !

DreamShake94
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DreamShake94 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:45 pm

Do Fall grades for 2Ls & 3Ls come out at the same time as they do for 1Ls? The front-page FAQ speaks to Spring grades for upperclassmen (before graduation), but not to Fall grades.

Are they released all at once, or do they trickle in?

Also, any thoughts on Taxation with Warren? Easy, hard, a lot of work, gunner-heavy, checked-out heavy, etc.?

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:32 pm

LS2515 wrote:What is going on with grades? Has the initial registrar email even gone out yet?


It went out in Dec and said Feb 1

@Dreamshake: the registrar will release upper class grades the same time as 1L grades unless the prof hasn't submitted yet, which happens from time to time

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:41 pm

DreamShake94 wrote:Do Fall grades for 2Ls & 3Ls come out at the same time as they do for 1Ls? The front-page FAQ speaks to Spring grades for upperclassmen (before graduation), but not to Fall grades.

As MyNameIsFlynn said, only spring grade release dates vary depending on who you are (not fall, not J Term). I figured that was implicitly clear in the FAQ, but maybe not.

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leslieknope
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby leslieknope » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:40 pm

Anyone know why grades are coming out later this year?

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wwwcol » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:54 pm

leslieknope wrote:Anyone know why grades are coming out later this year?


[insert complaint here about registar's gross incompetence]

[insert complaint here about the administration being totally spineless in re: forcing professors to grade exams in a reasonable amount of time]

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jingosaur
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby jingosaur » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:06 pm

leslieknope wrote:Anyone know why grades are coming out later this year?


I think finals ended later this year.

Also, this delay really screws 1Ls for jobs because they're competing with people who have had grades for weeks. There were so many internships I applied to that wouldn't interview me w/out grades and then within a couple days of sending in my grades the day they came out, I got a response that they filled all of their positions already. V5s will wait for HLS kids for 2L firm recruiting, but the GC's office at a random company doesn't really give a shit whether their 1L intern comes from HLS or another T14.

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ikethegremlin
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ikethegremlin » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:26 am

jingosaur wrote:
leslieknope wrote:Anyone know why grades are coming out later this year?


I think finals ended later this year.

Also, this delay really screws 1Ls for jobs because they're competing with people who have had grades for weeks. There were so many internships I applied to that wouldn't interview me w/out grades and then within a couple days of sending in my grades the day they came out, I got a response that they filled all of their positions already. V5s will wait for HLS kids for 2L firm recruiting, but the GC's office at a random company doesn't really give a shit whether their 1L intern comes from HLS or another T14.


Agreed, it's very sweet that the administration seems to think that HLS means so much that they can act completely differently to other schools and not damage our chances at all, but it's just not true. Also had jobs waiting on transcripts for a couple weeks now, and it's sort of awkward.

robotrick
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby robotrick » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:21 am

A lot of 1Ls do get summer positions before grades come out, though. I think it's very possible that by extending the time without grades it blurs the distinction between Harvard students and forces employers to rely more on the name (and previous work experience). I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

You might expect it to hold back people at the top of the class who could benefit from differentiating themselves from the rest of the pack, but in my experience it doesn't. My friends with great grades mostly had 1L internships lined up in Dec/Jan before grades came out. Whether that was because of signaling or because of a better work ethic in getting apps in early... I don't know.

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:52 pm

wwwcol wrote:[insert complaint here about the administration being totally spineless in re: forcing professors to grade exams in a reasonable amount of time]

The thing that gets me is that professors can grade quickly. 3L grades come out about two weeks after exams end each year. If the administration required it, 1L profs could grade as quickly and get grades back to students before J Term starts. Instead, the administration allows them to take over six weeks.

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:20 pm

tomwatts wrote:
wwwcol wrote:[insert complaint here about the administration being totally spineless in re: forcing professors to grade exams in a reasonable amount of time]

The thing that gets me is that professors can grade quickly. 3L grades come out about two weeks after exams end each year. If the administration required it, 1L profs could grade as quickly and get grades back to students before J Term starts. Instead, the administration allows them to take over six weeks.


I mean yeah... in defense of 1L profs though, having a section of 80 (or even two sections of 80) is more work than just rushing grades for 3Ls. Even if you are teaching a 120-person class, it would be rare that 80 of them are 3Ls that you would need to rush.

Also, it's one thing to require profs to rush grades in May. It's another thing to require people to rush over the Christmas break. Profs have lives and families too.

My guess (with zero evidence since I haven't looked into it) is that schools giving grades in early January probably start the fall semester before Labor Day.

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:40 pm

Also, getting grades a week late is dubiously problematic compared to what some law schools continue to do with their schedules. UChi 2Ls don't finish Spring term finals until a week into when most people have already started at firms. They lose out on $3,000 in summer pay. While it would be nice to get grades sooner, at least we don't have problems like that.

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polareagle
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby polareagle » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:47 pm

Professors were supposed to turn grades in by last Friday.
My (perhaps optimistic) guess is that grades come out tomorrow.

wwwcol
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wwwcol » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:49 pm

TripTrip wrote:Also, getting grades a week late is dubiously problematic compared to what some law schools continue to do with their schedules. UChi 2Ls don't finish Spring term finals until a week into when most people have already started at firms. They lose out on $3,000 in summer pay. While it would be nice to get grades sooner, at least we don't have problems like that.

Sure, everything is relative, but the fact that Uchicago does somethkng even more shittily than us is not a great defense.

Also youre talking about scheduling but were talking about grades. I assume the logistical costs/hurdles of changing from a quarter to a semester system far outweigh the benefits at this point in time. But the hurdle of getting grades in sooner is far less significant- Basically just the "cost" of forcing profs to grade in three or four weeks instead of six or seven

despina wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
wwwcol wrote:[insert complaint here about the administration being totally spineless in re: forcing professors to grade exams in a reasonable amount of time]

The thing that gets me is that professors can grade quickly. 3L grades come out about two weeks after exams end each year. If the administration required it, 1L profs could grade as quickly and get grades back to students before J Term starts. Instead, the administration allows them to take over six weeks.


I mean yeah... in defense of 1L profs though, having a section of 80 (or even two sections of 80) is more work than just rushing grades for 3Ls. Even if you are teaching a 120-person class, it would be rare that 80 of them are 3Ls that you would need to rush.

Also, it's one thing to require profs to rush grades in May. It's another thing to require people to rush over the Christmas break. Profs have lives and families too.

My guess (with zero evidence since I haven't looked into it) is that schools giving grades in early January probably start the fall semester before Labor Day.


Wrt to the "professors have lives too," Im struggling to think of a less sympathetic group. They're paid 200-400k to teach and "research." I don't think its too fucking much to ask that they grade papers in less than two full months. No other schools seem to have this problem and I doubt its attributable to the calendar alone.

Even the laziest of profs should be able to turn in grades around early Jan. I have no idea how long it takes to grade an exam (and I assume it varies wildly by prof) but let's assume they can grade 3 exams per hour (that seems reasonable to me). That's 24 per day and 80 by day four. Add in another day to double check and make sure points awarded were consistent from beginning to end. Grading within one business week should be easily doable. (Three points to note: First, I assume profs do no work on weekends. Given their pay i personally don't think it's crazy they work a weekend or two to get grades in sooner. Second, if grading 3 exams/hr is unreasonable because the exams are too long, well that's what word limits are for. Third, grading is probs way easier here than elsewhere since the scale is binary (no need to distinguish between A- vs B+, B- vs C+ Etc)

1l exams end around a week before Christmas. This year I think it was the 18th. That gives the prof 7 business days in Dec alone (not counting Christmas Eve or Christmas). Absolutely no reason other than spineless admin that we don't have grades by first week of J term

To the extent it takes the registrar time to input grades into helios and verify the curve was followed, again I point to registrar incompetence. The whole process should be (and can easily be) automated.

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heythatslife
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby heythatslife » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:22 pm

wwwcol wrote:
Wrt to the "professors have lives too," Im struggling to think of a less sympathetic group. They're paid 200-400k to teach and "research." I don't think its too fucking much to ask that they grade papers in less than two full months. No other schools seem to have this problem and I doubt its attributable to the calendar alone.

Even the laziest of profs should be able to turn in grades around early Jan. I have no idea how long it takes to grade an exam (and I assume it varies wildly by prof) but let's assume they can grade 3 exams per hour (that seems reasonable to me). That's 24 per day and 80 by day four. Add in another day to double check and make sure points awarded were consistent from beginning to end. Grading within one business week should be easily doable. (Three points to note: First, I assume profs do no work on weekends. Given their pay i personally don't think it's crazy they work a weekend or two to get grades in sooner. Second, if grading 3 exams/hr is unreasonable because the exams are too long, well that's what word limits are for. Third, grading is probs way easier here than elsewhere since the scale is binary (no need to distinguish between A- vs B+, B- vs C+ Etc)

1l exams end around a week before Christmas. This year I think it was the 18th. That gives the prof 7 business days in Dec alone (not counting Christmas Eve or Christmas). Absolutely no reason other than spineless admin that we don't have grades by first week of J term

To the extent it takes the registrar time to input grades into helios and verify the curve was followed, again I point to registrar incompetence. The whole process should be (and can easily be) automated.

I think you underestimate the time that goes into grading a paper. It's one thing to skim three 4000 word essays an hour, and another to note and keep track of differences in essays that all talk about the same thing. Also, besides Christmas/New Year social obligations, winter break is more demanding on the instructors than summer since many of them have to use the time to prepare for spring courses as well. But I do suspect the registrar can probably be more efficient, though.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:23 pm

One firm asked me to update my grades like a week or two ago and then today I got a rejection email lol

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:46 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:One firm asked me to update my grades like a week or two ago and then today I got a rejection email lol


But you should take solace in the fact that the Harvard name will get you an even better job than the one you wanted!!!

In all seriousness, why can't grades be posted as they are submitted? That way, if a teacher doesn't need two months, the grades will be posted quicker. My sense is that grades for most non-lecture courses could be submitted pretty quickly.

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:54 pm

TripTrip wrote:Also, getting grades a week late is dubiously problematic compared to what some law schools continue to do with their schedules. UChi 2Ls don't finish Spring term finals until a week into when most people have already started at firms. They lose out on $3,000 in summer pay. While it would be nice to get grades sooner, at least we don't have problems like that.

But, when delayed grades cause you to miss out on a 1L SA, you miss out on a lot more $$ than 3k. I think that was the main point above. I agree that being mad about grade release timelines is silly in the abstract, but when grade delays contribute (or even apparently contribute) to HLS students missing out on jobs, I think the frustration becomes a bit more justifiable. The administration's position—"lol this is HLS, XYZ & Associates will hold open that position for you"—just doesn't match reality anymore.

wwwcol wrote: Wrt to the "professors have lives too," Im struggling to think of a less sympathetic group. They're paid 200-400k to teach and "research." I don't think its too fucking much to ask that they grade papers in less than two full months. No other schools seem to have this problem and I doubt its attributable to the calendar alone.

Even the laziest of profs should be able to turn in grades around early Jan. I have no idea how long it takes to grade an exam (and I assume it varies wildly by prof) but let's assume they can grade 3 exams per hour (that seems reasonable to me). That's 24 per day and 80 by day four. Add in another day to double check and make sure points awarded were consistent from beginning to end. Grading within one business week should be easily doable. (Three points to note: First, I assume profs do no work on weekends. Given their pay i personally don't think it's crazy they work a weekend or two to get grades in sooner. Second, if grading 3 exams/hr is unreasonable because the exams are too long, well that's what word limits are for. Third, grading is probs way easier here than elsewhere since the scale is binary (no need to distinguish between A- vs B+, B- vs C+ Etc)

1l exams end around a week before Christmas. This year I think it was the 18th. That gives the prof 7 business days in Dec alone (not counting Christmas Eve or Christmas). Absolutely no reason other than spineless admin that we don't have grades by first week of J term

To the extent it takes the registrar time to input grades into helios and verify the curve was followed, again I point to registrar incompetence. The whole process should be (and can easily be) automated.

Yes, grades could be released more quickly—and they probably should be. But the above is just unrealistic. To take one example, 20 minutes per exam is just laughably off base. There's no way that's actually what you want. Especially when you consider that profs may teach multiple classes, and may be teaching classes during J-Term, the timeline becomes more understandable.

In my opinion, the real issue is that we have J-Term to begin with. I think the delays are traceable to that.

wwwcol
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wwwcol » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:08 pm

Pneumonia wrote:Yes, grades could be released more quickly—and they probably should be. But the above is just unrealistic. To take one example, 20 minutes per exam is just laughably off base. There's no way that's actually what you want. Especially when you consider that profs may teach multiple classes, and may be teaching classes during J-Term, the timeline becomes more understandable.

In my opinion, the real issue is that we have J-Term to begin with. I think the delays are traceable to that.


Idk what number of minutes is realistic but the point still stands that profs move way too slowly and could reasonably turn in grades in early Jan if prodded to do so. Re: multiple classes, it makes no sense that we release 1L and upper class grades at the same time. 1l grades are actually important for summer purposes whereas it doesn't matter when upperclassmen get grades back.

Agree about J term. Not sure at what point administration will concede it was a failure of an idea and just get rid of it

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:14 am

Does anyone know why we have J-term? I could understand it if they were charging us more, but it seems like a money-bleeding enterprise and could easily be replaced by a higher credit minimum in other semesters (or just eliminated)

PMan99
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby PMan99 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:10 am

heythatslife wrote:
wwwcol wrote:
Wrt to the "professors have lives too," Im struggling to think of a less sympathetic group. They're paid 200-400k to teach and "research." I don't think its too fucking much to ask that they grade papers in less than two full months. No other schools seem to have this problem and I doubt its attributable to the calendar alone.

Even the laziest of profs should be able to turn in grades around early Jan. I have no idea how long it takes to grade an exam (and I assume it varies wildly by prof) but let's assume they can grade 3 exams per hour (that seems reasonable to me). That's 24 per day and 80 by day four. Add in another day to double check and make sure points awarded were consistent from beginning to end. Grading within one business week should be easily doable. (Three points to note: First, I assume profs do no work on weekends. Given their pay i personally don't think it's crazy they work a weekend or two to get grades in sooner. Second, if grading 3 exams/hr is unreasonable because the exams are too long, well that's what word limits are for. Third, grading is probs way easier here than elsewhere since the scale is binary (no need to distinguish between A- vs B+, B- vs C+ Etc)

1l exams end around a week before Christmas. This year I think it was the 18th. That gives the prof 7 business days in Dec alone (not counting Christmas Eve or Christmas). Absolutely no reason other than spineless admin that we don't have grades by first week of J term

To the extent it takes the registrar time to input grades into helios and verify the curve was followed, again I point to registrar incompetence. The whole process should be (and can easily be) automated.

I think you underestimate the time that goes into grading a paper. It's one thing to skim three 4000 word essays an hour, and another to note and keep track of differences in essays that all talk about the same thing. Also, besides Christmas/New Year social obligations, winter break is more demanding on the instructors than summer since many of them have to use the time to prepare for spring courses as well. But I do suspect the registrar can probably be more efficient, though.


Those poor Harvard professors getting paid $400,000+ to work a few long days over the winter break.

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flyingboy
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby flyingboy » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:08 pm

Grades are up. Now stop whining.




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