Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
asdlfjsafn
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby asdlfjsafn » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:21 pm

Are there any resources to find out how selective a firm is at EIP (is it possible to find out roughly how many Hs are needed (or if not needed then recommended) for any given firm)?

I looked at HLS Dope and EIP statistics, but that seems to be more focused on what % of bids are successful, what % of callbacks offered, etc.

hlsperson1111
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:20 pm

That information is not really available on a firm-by-firm basis.

Here are general rules:
--A short list of firms (the most prestigious DC firms; Watchtell; Munger; prestigious litigation boutiques) will probably require 7+, if not more, Hs.
--SF and DC are the most grade-selective markets. LA/Boston/Chicago are somewhat less selective. NY and most other secondary markets are not really grade-selective at all.
--Firms with bigger class sizes tend to be less selective than firms with smaller ones, all things being equal.
--Class size generally has a stronger effect on selectivity than Vault ranking, to the extent they pull in opposite directions.

LaziestPeople
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby LaziestPeople » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:51 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:That information is not really available on a firm-by-firm basis.

Here are general rules:
--A short list of firms (the most prestigious DC firms; Watchtell; Munger; prestigious litigation boutiques) will probably require 7+, if not more, Hs.
--SF and DC are the most grade-selective markets. LA/Boston/Chicago are somewhat less selective. NY and most other secondary markets are not really grade-selective at all.
--Firms with bigger class sizes tend to be less selective than firms with smaller ones, all things being equal.
--Class size generally has a stronger effect on selectivity than Vault ranking, to the extent they pull in opposite directions.


Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

1. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz
2. Cravath, Swaine & Moore
3. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
4. Sullivan & Cromwell
5. Davis Polk & Wardwell
6. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett
7. Kirkland & Ellis
8. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton
9. Weil, Gotshal & Manges
10. Latham & Watkins
11. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher
12. Boies, Schiller & Flexner
13. Covington & Burling
14. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison
15. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan
16. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP
17. Sidley Austin LLP
18. Williams & Connolly LLP
19. Jones Day
20. White & Case LLP
21. WilmerHale
22. Morrison & Foerster LLP
23. Ropes & Gray LLP
24. Paul Hastings LLP
25. Arnold & Porter LLP
26. O'Melveny & [deleted] LLP
27. Clifford Chance US LLP
28. Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP
30. Shearman & Sterling LLP
31. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP
32. Baker & McKenzie
33. Hogan Lovells US LLP
34. Mayer Brown LLP
35. Goodwin Procter LLP
36. Proskauer Rose LLP
37. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP
38. Cooley LLP
39. Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP
40. Linklaters LLP (US)

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malleus discentium
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby malleus discentium » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:33 am

LaziestPeople wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:That information is not really available on a firm-by-firm basis.

Here are general rules:
--A short list of firms (the most prestigious DC firms; Watchtell; Munger; prestigious litigation boutiques) will probably require 7+, if not more, Hs.
--SF and DC are the most grade-selective markets. LA/Boston/Chicago are somewhat less selective. NY and most other secondary markets are not really grade-selective at all.
--Firms with bigger class sizes tend to be less selective than firms with smaller ones, all things being equal.
--Class size generally has a stronger effect on selectivity than Vault ranking, to the extent they pull in opposite directions.


Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

1. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz
[snip]
40. Linklaters LLP (US)

This kind of information can be found here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=249039

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:48 am

as a very rough outline the below applies to the major market for grade selectivity, obviously the DC and SF offices of these firms are tougher (places like Jones Day and Hogan DC aren't easy) and it doesn't take into account personality (some firms like Cooley or Proskauer drill more for fit). People can (and during bid list season do) argue all day about minor gradations, e.g. sullivan is more selective than simpson, blah blah, but this is the gist.

LaziestPeople wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

1. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz - selective
2. Cravath, Swaine & Moore - somewhat selective
3. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher - not selective
4. Sullivan & Cromwell - somewhat selective
5. Davis Polk & Wardwell - somewhat selective
6. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett - somewhat selective
7. Kirkland & Ellis - not selective
8. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton - somewhat selective
9. Weil, Gotshal & Manges - not selective
10. Latham & Watkins - not selective
11. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher - somewhat selective for LA/DC
12. Boies, Schiller & Flexner - selective
13. Covington & Burling - somewhat selective, esp DC
14. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison - somewhat selective
15. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan - doesn't really have a summer program
16. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP - not selective
17. Sidley Austin LLP - not selective
18. Williams & Connolly LLP - selective
19. Jones Day - not selective
20. White & Case LLP - not selective
21. WilmerHale - somewhat selective, esp DC
22. Morrison & Foerster LLP - not selective
23. Ropes & Gray LLP - not selective, but can be competitive in desirable locations
24. Paul Hastings LLP - not selective
25. Arnold & Porter LLP - somewhat selective, esp DC
26. O'Melveny & [deleted] LLP - not selective
27. Clifford Chance US LLP - not selective
28. Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP - selective
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP - not selective
30. Shearman & Sterling LLP - not selective
31. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP - not selective
32. Baker & McKenzie - not selective
33. Hogan Lovells US LLP - not selective
34. Mayer Brown LLP - not selective (except DC)
35. Goodwin Procter LLP - not selective
36. Proskauer Rose LLP - not grade selective, but tough
37. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP - not selective
38. Cooley LLP - not selective
39. Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP - not selective
40. Linklaters LLP (US) - not selective


Lots of amazing and more selective firms aren't on this list. Also, being grade selective doesn't make a firm better. Lots of great firms dont care about grades at somewhere like HLS but they look for other qualities and shouldn't be dismissed.

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:28 pm

Vault's Selectivity Ranking tracks the Dope employment survey results regarding grade-based callback outcomes fairly well.

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olaf
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby olaf » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:13 pm

Just curious, does anyone know the typical gpa range for sears prize winners?

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:00 pm

olaf wrote:Just curious, does anyone know the typical gpa range for sears prize winners?

More DSs than Hs.

Quick plug for this Google search method:

Code: Select all

site:top-law-schools.com "t=141188" "sears"


(The fact that the last time I answered this was 150 pages ago makes me feel older than being a 3L does.)

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olaf
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby olaf » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:37 pm

TripTrip wrote:
olaf wrote:Just curious, does anyone know the typical gpa range for sears prize winners?

More DSs than Hs.

Quick plug for this Google search method:

Code: Select all

site:top-law-schools.com "t=141188" "sears"


(The fact that the last time I answered this was 150 pages ago makes me feel older than being a 3L does.)


thanks and good plug!

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Single-Malt-Liquor
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Single-Malt-Liquor » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:54 pm

Intro to securities reg with Jackson. Do I need the textbook or can I 3lol my way through with the E&E and coming to class (only looking for a P)?

Fwiw I've taken at least four other classes that have delved into sec reg at some length.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:47 pm

Probably just getting antsy here, but why does it take so damn long to get grades back? :(

(/mostly rhetorical venting)

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flyingboy
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby flyingboy » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:50 pm

mujiali wrote:Probably just getting antsy here, but why does it take so damn long to get grades back? :(

(/mostly rhetorical venting)


Best theory I've heard is that Harvard doesn't want anyone to get a head start on 1L job search since professors finish grading at different times.

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dylar
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby dylar » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:41 pm

Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:52 pm

dylar wrote:Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

No. I got a few DS's and never got emailed.

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:06 pm

tomwatts wrote:
dylar wrote:Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

No. I got a few DS's and never got emailed.


Same.

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polareagle
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby polareagle » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:23 pm

despina wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
dylar wrote:Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

No. I got a few DS's and never got emailed.


Same.


Only professor I know of who regularly emails is Rubenstein (in order to snatch up RAs).
I'm sure there are some others, but I don't think it's the norm.

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:31 pm

polareagle wrote:
despina wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
dylar wrote:Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

No. I got a few DS's and never got emailed.


Same.


Only professor I know of who regularly emails is Rubenstein (in order to snatch up RAs).
I'm sure there are some others, but I don't think it's the norm.


Yeah I deeeeeefinitely did not get a Rubenstein DS, hahaha.

o0o0o0o
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby o0o0o0o » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:48 pm

despina wrote:
polareagle wrote:
despina wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
dylar wrote:Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

No. I got a few DS's and never got emailed.


Same.


Only professor I know of who regularly emails is Rubenstein (in order to snatch up RAs).
I'm sure there are some others, but I don't think it's the norm.


Yeah I deeeeeefinitely did not get a Rubenstein DS, hahaha.


Henry Smith did, at least for Remedies

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curious bobcat
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby curious bobcat » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:05 am

I was recently accepted to HLS and in lieu of an unexpectedly large scholarship from another school, I feel confident that I will end up matriculating.

I wanted to reach out and ask if any current students or graduates with similar interests would be willing to talk about their time at HLS. I am reasonably confident that I want to pursue some form of criminal trial advocacy job. An AUSA position through the Honors Program would be the dream position, but I would be incredibly happy with PD or ADA work as well.

Hoping to talk about what opportunities I should keep in mind when I come to HLS. At this point, the most compelling selections look like the Harvard Defenders and a US Attorney clinic/externship. Anybody want to PM me to talk about these programs or others that they have found particularly rewarding, or about their experience pursuing a crim litigation job at HLS generally?

Obviously it's pretty early to be thinking about these things, but now that the admissions game is more or less over, I need something else to start day dreaming about.

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:58 pm

curious bobcat wrote:I was recently accepted to HLS and in lieu of an unexpectedly large scholarship from another school, I feel confident that I will end up matriculating.

I wanted to reach out and ask if any current students or graduates with similar interests would be willing to talk about their time at HLS. I am reasonably confident that I want to pursue some form of criminal trial advocacy job. An AUSA position through the Honors Program would be the dream position, but I would be incredibly happy with PD or ADA work as well.

Hoping to talk about what opportunities I should keep in mind when I come to HLS. At this point, the most compelling selections look like the Harvard Defenders and a US Attorney clinic/externship. Anybody want to PM me to talk about these programs or others that they have found particularly rewarding, or about their experience pursuing a crim litigation job at HLS generally?

Obviously it's pretty early to be thinking about these things, but now that the admissions game is more or less over, I need something else to start day dreaming about.


This isn't an HLS specific answer at all, but I will tell you that there's a serious split between criminal defense and prosecution, and public defenders especially look askance at someone who just seems interested in "criminal justice" rather than being ideologically committed to defense specifically. You can definitely try both and then spin a narrative about why you chose one side or the other, but just to give you a heads up that if you go too hard toward the prosecution side, you could be closing doors for yourself on the defense side upon graduation.

I've never heard of the US Attorney clinic / externship but a LOT of people do their 1L summer at a USAO and there is a clinic that does prosecution in state courts.

Harvard Defenders and and Prison Legal Assistance Project are both great student-led orgs to get defense experience in your first and second year.

The Criminal Justice Institute is a clinic for 3Ls only that is an absolutely fantastic experience. If you want to do CJI you'll need to plan ahead a little bit to get prerequisites out of the way -- try to take Evidence and the Trial Advocacy Workshop your 2L year.

hlsperson1111
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby hlsperson1111 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:10 am

o0o0o0o wrote:
despina wrote:
polareagle wrote:
despina wrote:
tomwatts wrote:
dylar wrote:Do professors always email ahead of time to let you know if you've gotten a DS?

No. I got a few DS's and never got emailed.


Same.


Only professor I know of who regularly emails is Rubenstein (in order to snatch up RAs).
I'm sure there are some others, but I don't think it's the norm.


Yeah I deeeeeefinitely did not get a Rubenstein DS, hahaha.


Henry Smith did, at least for Remedies


Larry Tribe does.

rathgra
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby rathgra » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:41 am

despina wrote:
This isn't an HLS specific answer at all, but I will tell you that there's a serious split between criminal defense and prosecution, and public defenders especially look askance at someone who just seems interested in "criminal justice" rather than being ideologically committed to defense specifically. You can definitely try both and then spin a narrative about why you chose one side or the other, but just to give you a heads up that if you go too hard toward the prosecution side, you could be closing doors for yourself on the defense side upon graduation.


Prosecutors are absolutely not as extreme about this, and my defense experience was seen as an asset rather than a liability. However, the more competitive state offices absolutely expect you to have a compelling reason for why you want to become a prosecutor, and there is a sense that you do have to be ideologically committed.


despina wrote:
I've never heard of the US Attorney clinic / externship but a LOT of people do their 1L summer at a USAO and there is a clinic that does prosecution in state courts.


It's very small (like 5-10 people?), application only now. I don't know anything more about it, but I've generally heard good things?

The Criminal Justice Institute is a clinic for 3Ls only that is an absolutely fantastic experience. If you want to do CJI you'll need to plan ahead a little bit to get prerequisites out of the way -- try to take Evidence and the Trial Advocacy Workshop your 2L year.


Just to clarify - Criminal Justice Institute is defense only. There is an excellent prosecution equivalent, which is called Introduction to Advocacy (. . . that alone should give you a decent idea about how HLS regards prosecutors). Same pre-reqs, also 3Ls only.
Last edited by rathgra on Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

o0o0o0o
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby o0o0o0o » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:00 pm

. . .
Last edited by o0o0o0o on Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

LS2515
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby LS2515 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:08 pm

What is going on with grades? Has the initial registrar email even gone out yet?

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:40 pm

LS2515 wrote:What is going on with grades? Has the initial registrar email even gone out yet?


As far as I know, grades are scheduled to be released on February 1




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