Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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heythatslife
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby heythatslife » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:30 pm

ValeVale wrote:When does PSW end? On the academic calendar it says classes end Thursday, and exams are on Friday. Because there are no exams for PSW, do you think it would be possible for me to fly out of town Thursday night? Should I just email my prof to see when the schedule is/last day of class is?

It should end on Thursday morning.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:35 pm

So... an odd question. Trying to schedule a medical procedure that will have about a week - 10 days of recovery time. It is not super time sensitive so I was thinking of doing it over the summer. When would be a good point between spring classes/exams ending and summer jobs beginning to do this? Would OPIA or the DoS office be a good place to ask?

Thanks

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flyingboy
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby flyingboy » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:41 pm

mujiali wrote:So... an odd question. Trying to schedule a medical procedure that will have about a week - 10 days of recovery time. It is not super time sensitive so I was thinking of doing it over the summer. When would be a good point between spring classes/exams ending and summer jobs beginning to do this? Would OPIA or the DoS office be a good place to ask?

Thanks


March 13-20 is spring break, might give you enough time depending on your class schedule. DOS should be pretty accommodating when it comes to getting recordings for missed lectures etc.

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leslieknope
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby leslieknope » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:27 pm

I know we don't get grades until the end of the month, but do we get our open memos back before that/ever?

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heythatslife
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby heythatslife » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:36 pm

leslieknope wrote:I know we don't get grades until the end of the month, but do we get our open memos back before that/ever?

This will depend on your Climenko, but we got ours back a few days before grades came out.

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malleus discentium
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby malleus discentium » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:40 am

What's the best way to approach a BLL class with an exam over the J term? I'm regretting my decision to impose an exam on myself :(

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radio1nowhere
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby radio1nowhere » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:04 pm

malleus discentium wrote:What's the best way to approach a BLL class with an exam over the J term?


To not take one

/thread

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:01 pm

malleus discentium wrote:What's the best way to approach a BLL class with an exam over the J term? I'm regretting my decision to impose an exam on myself :(

Is there any reason to approach it differently than any other BLL class?

I never did a regular BLL class over J term, but if I had, I probably would have done the same things as I usually do but in a much more compressed timeframe. I outlined every 2-4 weeks to keep up with what we're learning, so I probably would have done that twice a week during J term. I started exam prep shortly before the final exam, so I probably would have done that starting on Tuesday of the last week of class (or maybe Wednesday). Other people's timing and approach differ somewhat, so they'd probably do things differently.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:22 pm

Yo psw sux why does this exist

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:49 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Yo psw sux why does this exist

I know this question isn't meant to be serious, but it deserves a serious answer.

First, PSW is a tool to promote teamwork. In this sense, the problems themselves are irrelevant. The important point is that you work as a team with other students (for the first time in law school) to accomplish a mutual goal. Unfortunately unless you're in a section with a professor who really cares about this (for example, Westfahl, not Singer) "how to work as a team" may not be a focus of the term. This results in some teams that work just fine together and other teams that accomplish little or spend hours working toward meaningless objectives.

If you step back and ask, "How would I redesign law school from scratch?" and then subsequently build a plan to do that, you would inevitably end up with something like PSW. Its current implementation isn't perfect, and many of the professors who teach it have motives disparate from what the goals should be, and many students approach it with an attitude that restricts their ability to get anything out of it. But at the end of the day, it's a step in the right direction for legal education. If you are interested in the history, PSW came in part as a response to the Carnegie report. It had three main points:

(1) Lawyers are best taught through a curriculum that integrates the three pillars of doctrine, skills, and professional identity, rather than having a curriculum that focuses on doctrine, and treats the other pillars as "add ons." Ideally, these three pillars can be integrated in the same course.

(2) The combination lecture/Socratic method is far overused, as is the Langdellian approach of learning the law through the dissection of appellate opinions.

(3) Law schools are far behind other educational institutions in how they assess student learning, and the extent to which they provide feedback that improves learning outcomes.

I know a lot of people don't take PSW seriously and I don't fault them for that. But before you ridicule it, I'd encourage you to see what you might be able to get out of it. I took away from PSW a better approach to working with a team that had varying viewpoints about how to get work done. It's also not about whether you divide up the assignments and work independently or get everything done together right after class. It's about how you agree to get the assignments done. You can get a lot out of the class just by paying attention to how your group deals with the stupid deadlines and the useless problems presented.

I wish I'd recognized sooner that figuring out collaboration was an intended purpose and not just a situational reality.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:16 pm

So looking at the consortium interview slots and my schedule, I just don't see this working. I either miss class, or I can't make an interview. Called OPIA and got a canned "HLS does not allow you to miss class for interviews." Has anyone been penalized for this? Are profs going to be pissed about it if I can't make a class to go to an interview?

Also why the hell did HLS let me sign up for this thing/encourage me to if I can't go to the damned interviews? Makes no sense.

ETA: Sorry, the cold has me irritable.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:12 pm

TripTrip wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:Yo psw sux why does this exist

I know this question isn't meant to be serious, but it deserves a serious answer.

First, PSW is a tool to promote teamwork. In this sense, the problems themselves are irrelevant. The important point is that you work as a team with other students (for the first time in law school) to accomplish a mutual goal. Unfortunately unless you're in a section with a professor who really cares about this (for example, Westfahl, not Singer) "how to work as a team" may not be a focus of the term. This results in some teams that work just fine together and other teams that accomplish little or spend hours working toward meaningless objectives.

If you step back and ask, "How would I redesign law school from scratch?" and then subsequently build a plan to do that, you would inevitably end up with something like PSW. Its current implementation isn't perfect, and many of the professors who teach it have motives disparate from what the goals should be, and many students approach it with an attitude that restricts their ability to get anything out of it. But at the end of the day, it's a step in the right direction for legal education. If you are interested in the history, PSW came in part as a response to the Carnegie report. It had three main points:

(1) Lawyers are best taught through a curriculum that integrates the three pillars of doctrine, skills, and professional identity, rather than having a curriculum that focuses on doctrine, and treats the other pillars as "add ons." Ideally, these three pillars can be integrated in the same course.

(2) The combination lecture/Socratic method is far overused, as is the Langdellian approach of learning the law through the dissection of appellate opinions.

(3) Law schools are far behind other educational institutions in how they assess student learning, and the extent to which they provide feedback that improves learning outcomes.

I know a lot of people don't take PSW seriously and I don't fault them for that. But before you ridicule it, I'd encourage you to see what you might be able to get out of it. I took away from PSW a better approach to working with a team that had varying viewpoints about how to get work done. It's also not about whether you divide up the assignments and work independently or get everything done together right after class. It's about how you agree to get the assignments done. You can get a lot out of the class just by paying attention to how your group deals with the stupid deadlines and the useless problems presented.

I wish I'd recognized sooner that figuring out collaboration was an intended purpose and not just a situational reality.


Why isn't break longer tho

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:15 pm

mujiali wrote:So looking at the consortium interview slots and my schedule, I just don't see this working. I either miss class, or I can't make an interview. Called OPIA and got a canned "HLS does not allow you to miss class for interviews." Has anyone been penalized for this? Are profs going to be pissed about it if I can't make a class to go to an interview?

Also why the hell did HLS let me sign up for this thing/encourage me to if I can't go to the damned interviews? Makes no sense.

ETA: Sorry, the cold has me irritable.

Miss class for interviews.

Every policy to the alternative is plausible deniability or ignorance.

If HLS's official policy is for you to miss class, it would be an ABA violation of the minimum number of class hours and they would have to make all the classes longer. If HLS could have a "yes, miss class" policy, it actually might. If OCS or OPIA got to set the policies, that's what they would do (and is why Symplicity lets you.) If a professor's individual policy is to not let you miss class, it's because they think they are too important for you to miss a minute of their time.

Just miss class. It's better for your career than missing an interview.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:28 pm

TripTrip wrote:
mujiali wrote:So looking at the consortium interview slots and my schedule, I just don't see this working. I either miss class, or I can't make an interview. Called OPIA and got a canned "HLS does not allow you to miss class for interviews." Has anyone been penalized for this? Are profs going to be pissed about it if I can't make a class to go to an interview?

Also why the hell did HLS let me sign up for this thing/encourage me to if I can't go to the damned interviews? Makes no sense.

ETA: Sorry, the cold has me irritable.

Miss class for interviews.

Every policy to the alternative is plausible deniability or ignorance.

If HLS's official policy is for you to miss class, it would be an ABA violation of the minimum number of class hours and they would have to make all the classes longer. If HLS could have a "yes, miss class" policy, it actually might. If OCS or OPIA got to set the policies, that's what they would do (and is why Symplicity lets you.) If a professor's individual policy is to not let you miss class, it's because they think they are too important for you to miss a minute of their time.

Just miss class. It's better for your career than missing an interview.



Thanks as always Trip. Joke's on me for actually asking the school, right? :p

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malleus discentium
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby malleus discentium » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:38 pm

TripTrip wrote:
mujiali wrote:So looking at the consortium interview slots and my schedule, I just don't see this working. I either miss class, or I can't make an interview. Called OPIA and got a canned "HLS does not allow you to miss class for interviews." Has anyone been penalized for this? Are profs going to be pissed about it if I can't make a class to go to an interview?

Also why the hell did HLS let me sign up for this thing/encourage me to if I can't go to the damned interviews? Makes no sense.

ETA: Sorry, the cold has me irritable.

Miss class for interviews.

Every policy to the alternative is plausible deniability or ignorance.

If HLS's official policy is for you to miss class, it would be an ABA violation of the minimum number of class hours and they would have to make all the classes longer. If HLS could have a "yes, miss class" policy, it actually might. If OCS or OPIA got to set the policies, that's what they would do (and is why Symplicity lets you.) If a professor's individual policy is to not let you miss class, it's because they think they are too important for you to miss a minute of their time.

Just miss class. It's better for your career than missing an interview.

To clarify, are they PSW classes or real classes? Missing PSW classes actually is a big deal, I believe.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:39 pm

Real classes. Interviews would be Jan 25/26, so the first week of Spring classes (which to me feel like NBD, I'll just read what I miss at home).

Yeah, if it was PSW/a Jan term thing I wouldn't skip. So little time as it is.

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:18 pm

The school's "policy" should not give you any qualms about missing class for interviews, whether in J-Term or Spring. I missed two days of PSW, and my professor was alright with that (one was for an interview, one wasn't). I have difficulty imagining that any of the PSW professors would actually tell you "no" to interviewing. Sure, they're not going to offer that as an option on the first day of class, and they may even say the opposite, but if you approach them one-on-one about an actual opportunity that you have then I most would extend you that grace.

Obviously for Spring you can just miss class. Think about it—no one gets in trouble for skipping class in order to sleep in, or watch Netflix, or whatever. The school handbook doesn't say "you can miss class for TV," but no one is going to get busted for that. Even more so with missing for interviews. Just don't advertise it and you'll be fine.

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:38 pm

malleus discentium wrote:To clarify, are they PSW classes or real classes? Missing PSW classes actually is a big deal, I believe.

Pneumonia wrote:The school's "policy" should not give you any qualms about missing class for interviews, whether in J-Term or Spring.

What Pneumonia said. I think one or two people every year are made to retake PSW because the prof noticed that they missed too many classes, but at the end of the day most professors will make an exception for interviews (even if only in some extreme circumstance).

They like to emphasize that it's only 13 days, but that's a totally misleading statement. If you take a three-hour three credit class during the semester, it also only meets 13 days spread out over the term. A three-credit course is supposed to take 35 hours (ABA source!), so they actually have you for way more hours in PSW than they should, because PSW is only 2 credits. You could miss 16 hours of class and still make a fully justified appeal to the Dean about why you should be granted credit.

To each their own, though. PSW is worth your time if you make it worth your time, but I still wouldn't skip an interview for it.

rathgra
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby rathgra » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:26 pm

Pneumonia wrote:The school's "policy" should not give you any qualms about missing class for interviews, whether in J-Term or Spring. I missed two days of PSW, and my professor was alright with that (one was for an interview, one wasn't). I have difficulty imagining that any of the PSW professors would actually tell you "no" to interviewing. Sure, they're not going to offer that as an option on the first day of class, and they may even say the opposite, but if you approach them one-on-one about an actual opportunity that you have then I most would extend you that grace.

Obviously for Spring you can just miss class. Think about it—no one gets in trouble for skipping class in order to sleep in, or watch Netflix, or whatever. The school handbook doesn't say "you can miss class for TV," but no one is going to get busted for that. Even more so with missing for interviews. Just don't advertise it and you'll be fine.


Yeah, I've skipped a lot of class for my clinics and never had any sort of a problem. I tell the professors who would notice and - it's possible I've just been lucky - their reactions have been generally very positive and encouraging me to take advantage of the opportunity.

Also, the 25th/26th is probably the best day in the semester to miss given that it's add-drop so other people who will ultimately be in the class will miss that day. (Edit: Just realized add-drop only applies to 1L's elective, and most 2Ls/3Ls aren't interviewing January so it's a bit of a moot point. Generally speaking though.)

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:45 pm

Thanks all. Dunno why I was so worried about it now that I think about it/read your thoughts.

LaziestPeople
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby LaziestPeople » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:00 pm

How many interviews do people get on average at SIP? Any general advice on biddng strategy? Which firms give a chance to non-diverse KJDs with no IP background? Thanks in advance for any help!

lawlorbust
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawlorbust » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:46 pm

General advice: don't depend on SIP to get you a (firm) job.

Pretty easy to get interviews, but very few real offers come out of it.

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:42 am

lawlorbust wrote:General advice: don't depend on SIP to get you a (firm) job.

Pretty easy to get interviews, but very few real offers come out of it.

+1

nickhalden
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nickhalden » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:40 pm

Thoughts on the Law Review write-on competition? What factors should be considered in making the decision to do it?

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:32 pm

nickhalden wrote:Thoughts on the Law Review write-on competition? What factors should be considered in making the decision to do it?

If you want to be on the Law Review, do it. If you don't, don't.

If you're thinking about doing it because other people are doing it, stop thinking about that and consider whether you personally actually want to be on the Law Review.

If you're interested in clerking/academia, you should probably do it. If you don't like editing/writing academic works, you probably shouldn't do it.

I tend to think that it's of more relevance to someone who's interested in litigation than to those interested in other things, but that's not necessarily 100% true all the time.

I don't think it should matter that it's an extra week of intensive work after spring exams, but some people do care about that. Bear in mind that you have an elective exam (if your elective has an exam) during the 2L/3L exam period, followed by 1L exams, followed by the HLR competition (look at the academic calendar for details), so this makes exam period in the spring very long if you do it.

If, after considering all that, you're still not sure whether to do it, you may as well do it. There's not much downside, other than giving up a week of your life.




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