Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:08 pm

heythatslife wrote:
Ericwa wrote:As far as EIP, anyone has any idea how international students do? Do they have significant disadvantages? Thanks!

I have no stats to back up my claim, but everyone I know (myself included) has done pretty well, at least in major markets (but then again, international students do tend to self-select into major markets). So don't worry about your citizenship status, focus on your grades and interviewing skills, and you'll do fine.


Generally agree that international students do well at EIP. But I wouldn't go so far as to say "don't worry about your citizenship status." As I think I've written before on this thread, I've been surprised that HLS really does not explain the major problem that international law students have: a law degree, generally, is NOT a path to a green card (permanent residence). You can work for up to 6 years on an H-1B visa, but:
1. The firm has to be willing to pay for the costs associated with the visa, which isn't cheap. Big firms generally do this, but nonprofits, small firms, etc can't.
2. There is an annual cap for new H-1B visas, and every year thousands of otherwise eligible people just don't get a visa. Even if your firm is willing to sponsor you, and submits the application, you just might not get the visa.
3. Even if you do get the H-1B visa, it's limited to 6 years unless your company files a green card application for you. If you ever want to change jobs, your new company has to be willing to file a new petition for you (and pay the associated costs).
4. In most cases, to sponsor an employee for a green card, the employer has to go through the motions of recruiting for the employee's job, and show that there are NO Americans able and willing to do that job, at the prevailing wage. This just isn't possible for most lawyers unless you have a VERY rare specialty. This means that generally, it is VERY DIFFICULT to get an employment-based green card for a lawyer. If you happen to be the special snowflake who qualifies, the process still takes several years, or decades if you're from China or India.
5. Therefore, an international student who wants to live permanently in the US as a lawyer better have another pathway to permanent residence -- generally, through marriage or another family connection. Some international students have a qualifying relative to sponsor them, but many don't.

(general disclaimer that this is just general info and NOT legal advice; also keep in mind that Canadians and Mexicans are in a slightly better position because they can get a TN visa)

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heythatslife
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby heythatslife » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:04 pm

Well yeah, I am aware of and agree with all of the above but the poster was asking about EIP so I meant to qualify the scope of my answer to the job search process. I thought that much was clear.

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:35 pm

Understood, and sorry if my rant was uncalled for! I was just surprised how many of my international student friends were under the misunderstanding that "If I go to HLS, I'm guaranteed a good job, and therefore I can stay in the US indefinitely."

AmazingReadingRace
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby AmazingReadingRace » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:21 pm

Had an appointment with OCS today. According to the advisor I spoked to, 1L firm jobs (outside Texas) are nearly impossible to get unless for people eligible for diversity programs or with solid working experience in certain areas. If falling out of these categories, is it unwise to spend a lot of time and efforts finding firm jobs? Is it a good or bad idea to focus my attention on small/middle-size firms?

lawlorbust
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lawlorbust » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:54 pm

AmazingReadingRace wrote:Had an appointment with OCS today. According to the advisor I spoked to, 1L firm jobs (outside Texas) are nearly impossible to get unless for people eligible for diversity programs or with solid working experience in certain areas. If falling out of these categories, is it unwise to spend a lot of time and efforts finding firm jobs? Is it a good or bad idea to focus my attention on small/middle-size firms?


Sure, 1L firm jobs are quite hard to get, but OCS is still probably overstating things. Probably the majority of 1L biglaw positions are diversity-only, but not all of them, and of the remainder, I know more than a handful who got positions without "solid working experience."

To answer your question: depends on what else is on the table. For example, if a middle-sized firm pays a prorated $160k, then by all means spend the time applying, but at some point, if for less pay, less signaling power, and less substantive work (?), then why not go the usual government internship route, or whatever HLS students usually do?

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:05 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
AmazingReadingRace wrote:Had an appointment with OCS today. According to the advisor I spoked to, 1L firm jobs (outside Texas) are nearly impossible to get unless for people eligible for diversity programs or with solid working experience in certain areas. If falling out of these categories, is it unwise to spend a lot of time and efforts finding firm jobs? Is it a good or bad idea to focus my attention on small/middle-size firms?


Sure, 1L firm jobs are quite hard to get, but OCS is still probably overstating things. Probably the majority of 1L biglaw positions are diversity-only, but not all of them, and of the remainder, I know more than a handful who got positions without "solid working experience."

To answer your question: depends on what else is on the table. For example, if a middle-sized firm pays a prorated $160k, then by all means spend the time applying, but at some point, if for less pay, less signaling power, and less substantive work (?), then why not go the usual government internship route, or whatever HLS students usually do?


Check out OCS's new CLIP program. It's too late for me to try (as a 3L) but it sounds like it'll have some cool opportunities.
As for 1L SAs, outside of Texas and non-diversity is very hard to get but there are some positions. If you're looking at NY, send applications but make sure you get a few other eggs in a few other baskets--definitely don't rely on something coming through. In other markets, some of my friends have done pretty well, but not all that many.

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:49 am

13% of EIP participants did a 1L SA.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:28 pm

OCS presentation said 24% worked at a firm last 1L summer

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:51 pm

24% of what? Surely not all students.

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:16 pm

TripTrip wrote:13% of EIP participants did a 1L SA.

Mack.Hambleton wrote:OCS presentation said 24% worked at a firm last 1L summer

To clarify: 13% of 464 survey respondents who have answered questions about EIP reported having done a 1L SA. Maybe 1/2 of respondents skipped that question. I haven't cross checked that data point with OCS yet.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:21 pm

Pneumonia wrote:24% of what? Surely not all students.


That's what they said

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:40 pm

Anyone taken Fed Lit - Civil with David Rosenberg (or another course with him)? His reviews don't seem all that great (3.88 on Dope), but the class sounds really interesting.

Also, any thoughts on taking 14th with a visiting prof vs. waiting till next year to take it? I know HLS has a few rock stars, but none are available to my section :\

robotrick
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby robotrick » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:04 pm

mujiali wrote:Also, any thoughts on taking 14th with a visiting prof vs. waiting till next year to take it? I know HLS has a few rock stars, but none are available to my section :\

Everyone I know who took 14th has been disappointed with the quality of teaching in the course and ended up just reading the Chemerinsky supplement to learn the whole course (myself included). None of them had Klarman or Feldman; I don't know if the experience would have been different.

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antiworldly
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby antiworldly » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:18 pm

mujiali wrote:Anyone taken Fed Lit - Civil with David Rosenberg (or another course with him)? His reviews don't seem all that great (3.88 on Dope), but the class sounds really interesting.

Also, any thoughts on taking 14th with a visiting prof vs. waiting till next year to take it? I know HLS has a few rock stars, but none are available to my section :\


I did a reading group with rosenberg and he was amazing. Truly thought provoking/challenging, I would love to take a course with him now. Granted, reading group may be very different than his class style, but I think it'd be worth it to see if you're ready to think/work very hard.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:52 pm

Little late but what's the strategy for how to preference 1L electives?

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leslieknope
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby leslieknope » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:04 pm

Also, thoughts on taking one of the advanced Legal Research classes, like Wise's International Legal Research?

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malleus discentium
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby malleus discentium » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:07 pm

leslieknope wrote:Also, thoughts on taking one of the advanced Legal Research classes, like Wise's International Legal Research?

International legal research won't be worth your time as a 1L. Regular advanced legal research is the most useful course I've taken at HLS.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:23 pm

antiworldly wrote:
mujiali wrote:Anyone taken Fed Lit - Civil with David Rosenberg (or another course with him)? His reviews don't seem all that great (3.88 on Dope), but the class sounds really interesting.

Also, any thoughts on taking 14th with a visiting prof vs. waiting till next year to take it? I know HLS has a few rock stars, but none are available to my section :\


I did a reading group with rosenberg and he was amazing. Truly thought provoking/challenging, I would love to take a course with him now. Granted, reading group may be very different than his class style, but I think it'd be worth it to see if you're ready to think/work very hard.


Thanks for this, and thanks for the insight on 14th, too. :)

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:03 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Little late but what's the strategy for how to preference 1L electives?

This question is so vague that it probably will not get any (or at least any meaningful) responses. What do you want to know?
robotrick wrote:
mujiali wrote:Also, any thoughts on taking 14th with a visiting prof vs. waiting till next year to take it? I know HLS has a few rock stars, but none are available to my section :\

Everyone I know who took 14th has been disappointed with the quality of teaching in the course and ended up just reading the Chemerinsky supplement to learn the whole course (myself included). None of them had Klarman or Feldman; I don't know if the experience would have been different.

It probably would have been. 14th with Klarman was one of the best classes I've ever taken anywhere. 14th with Feldman seems like it would be phenomenal based on my experiences listening to him give talks, but I don't actually know.

I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

robotrick
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby robotrick » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:21 pm

tomwatts wrote:I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

It seems crazy to me that Harvard Law School only has 2 really good con law professors that everyone fights over...

acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:00 pm

robotrick wrote:
tomwatts wrote:I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

It seems crazy to me that Harvard Law School only has 2 really good con law professors that everyone fights over...


Quality of teaching is only a portion of factors used to select professors, which is probably for the best, though unfortunate. First, it's an academic institution, so picking top scholars obviously makes sense. Further, one of Harvard and other top law school's points/strengths is a strong and powerful network. You need professor recs for clerkships, and for some of the best clerkships, you need a phone call from a prominent/well-connected professor. A lot of people I know who took Sunstein weren't that into his teaching style, but you can't deny his general importance in the legal field. It's hard to find someone who is a strong scholar, has much recognition, AND has a teaching style that is more widely popular (you can usually find a few ppl who like unpopular professors because they just match the style). They take teaching into account, but being an effective lecturer is difficult.

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:22 pm

robotrick wrote:
tomwatts wrote:I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

It seems crazy to me that Harvard Law School only has 2 really good con law professors that everyone fights over...


Feldman and Klarman are two of the most well-liked "teachers" at the school, and they teach arguably one of the most popular subjects. Demand for their classes is also pretty self-reinforcing. It's not like they're the only good profs for con law, they just have a lot going for them. Most of the other profs who teach Con Law are really good too.

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:57 pm

robotrick wrote:
tomwatts wrote:I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

It seems crazy to me that Harvard Law School only has 2 really good con law professors that everyone fights over...

There are 3 con law classes in the spring. So if your choice is prof of unknown quality or take it later, I'd say take it later. There are other good con law profs, but not this spring.

On the other hand, if you could take it with Feldman or Klarman, I'd say for sure take it in the spring.

Indifference
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Indifference » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:04 pm

tomwatts wrote:
robotrick wrote:
tomwatts wrote:I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

It seems crazy to me that Harvard Law School only has 2 really good con law professors that everyone fights over...

There are 3 con law classes in the spring. So if your choice is prof of unknown quality or take it later, I'd say take it later. There are other good con law profs, but not this spring.

On the other hand, if you could take it with Feldman or Klarman, I'd say for sure take it in the spring.


Got pretty good feedback on Rana from the Cornell thread, but hey, who knows.

nerd1
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nerd1 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:16 pm

robotrick wrote:
tomwatts wrote:I think this leads to the same conclusion. I'd hold off on taking 14th if you can't take it with either Klarman or Feldman.

It seems crazy to me that Harvard Law School only has 2 really good con law professors that everyone fights over...


No, just echoing what others above said, other con law profs such as Fried and Minow are all brilliant too. In terms of fame, probably Fried is the most famous. Feldman and Klarman are considered the best teachers. I have not taken any Feldman class yet but went to one of his lunch events. He is very eloquent and clear in his expressions. Probably the most articulate person I saw here thus far. But the best teachers are not necessarily the best academics. By the way, Klarman is the most popular choice for the 14th Amendment and Feldman for the 1st. You definitely cannot go wrong with any other renowned con law prof for either of the two courses however.




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