Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
Veronica2015
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Veronica2015 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:01 am

Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!

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codyoneill
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby codyoneill » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:04 am

Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


Someone can probably answer this better than me, but going into HLS I thought they were pretty rare. In fact, I'd heard from fellow 0L's that 1L summer associate positions were common at CLS and uncommon at HLS.

I don't know what the numbers say across the board, but among my friends everyone who really wanted a 1L summer associate position at a firm got one. Applying is a lot of work (and a lot more work than getting a public interest internship) and interviews typically go weeks into the spring semester.

Self selection plays a big part. A lot of people would prefer to spend a summer working for the DOJ than working for a firm when they know that's where they'll be the following summer. And most people get public interest summer jobs in December or early January, while the firm jobs come later after a much more intense process.

Diversity plays a big part for firm summer associate positions too.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:40 am

Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


I think it could be difficult, but any one of solid grades/diversity/strong ties to a smaller market (e.g. Florida, Ohio Minneapolis) and I think you can get it. It's more work than gettin a DOJ spot and you might not find out until later.

Eta: If you're sure you want this, you should go after it from very early on. When lawyers from firms/markets you're interested in give lunch talks, go to it, speak with them after, get their info, follow up. Even if they have no spots they might know someone who is. Technically recruiting doesn't start til dec 1, but I know multiple people who mass mailed firms in like October November, then ended up working there (you need to make sure you can visit their office at some point, preferably during winter break).

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:04 am

With respect to 1L firm jobs, keep in mind that one reason people go for them at other schools is to get paid. At HLS we have guaranteed summer funding for public interest positions. It's not as much as you'll get working at a firm, but it helps a lot with summer expenses, so people are less likely to try to go the firm route just for the cash, and more likely to try something new in a government, nonprofit, international, etc setting.

http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/summer- ... t-funding/

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malleus discentium
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby malleus discentium » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:38 pm

codyoneill wrote:
Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


Someone can probably answer this better than me, but going into HLS I thought they were pretty rare. In fact, I'd heard from fellow 0L's that 1L summer associate positions were common at CLS and uncommon at HLS.

I don't know what the numbers say across the board, but among my friends everyone who really wanted a 1L summer associate position at a firm got one. Applying is a lot of work (and a lot more work than getting a public interest internship) and interviews typically go weeks into the spring semester.

Self selection plays a big part. A lot of people would prefer to spend a summer working for the DOJ than working for a firm when they know that's where they'll be the following summer. And most people get public interest summer jobs in December or early January, while the firm jobs come later after a much more intense process.

Diversity plays a big part for firm summer associate positions too.

Not to call you out Cody ( :D ) but it is not true that among your friend group everyone who wanted a 1L SA got one, nor is it true that everyone you know who wanted one got one.
Nevertheless, I agree that they are considerably more common than I thought they were coming in. Diversity, grades and prestigious WE/UGs are common themes among people I know who got one.
Self-selection is also a factor. Despina is correct that we have SPIF, but I believe that this is standard among T14 schools. The more relevant consideration is that 1L SA money will wipe out a lot of the grants students get, so it's a less appealing option for the summer than PI is. (People take the grant hit during 2L SAs for obvious reasons.)

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codyoneill
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby codyoneill » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:05 pm

malleus discentium wrote:it is not true that among your friend group everyone who wanted a 1L SA got one, nor is it true that everyone you know who wanted one got one.


Whoops!

Also worth noting that HLS students are good at not revealing when they didn't get what they wanted or when they get bad grades. So these things are often hard to judge.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:02 pm

SPIF is $~4,000-5,000
SA is $3,000 per week with programs varying from 6-10 weeks

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:27 pm

malleus discentium wrote:The more relevant consideration is that 1L SA money will wipe out a lot of the grants students get, so it's a less appealing option for the summer than PI is. (People take the grant hit during 2L SAs for obvious reasons.)


Ah yes, this is definitely a big factor too -- that's what significantly reduces, for a lot of people, the difference between SPIF and summer earnings at a firm in terms of actual take-home pay. There's still a cap that you're allowed to keep before it goes toward your grants, so if you do a firm job, you still get more "money in your pocket" at the end of the day than if you had taken SPIF -- but not nearly as much as the absolute difference.

More info on this here: http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/sfs/student ... er-income/

Also, didn't realize how many of the T14 have a SPIF-equivalent. I just looked into a few -- I see that several schools (NYU, Georgetown, UPenn) say theirs are "guaranteed," while it looks like at UMich it's guaranteed only for 2Ls, and UVA has several summer fellowship programs but doesn't call them "guaranteed." Definitely something to look into carefully for prospective students who want to do public interest.

nothingtosee wrote:SPIF is $~4,000-5,000
SA is $3,000 per week with programs varying from 6-10 weeks


Damn. $3k per week is truly insane -- didn't realize this was the rate for 1L summers as well.

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jingosaur
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby jingosaur » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:20 pm

Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


I tried really hard to get one and didn't, but I had several callbacks so I guess it's possible. Almost everyone that I know who got one is either diversity or in a smaller market where they have ties.

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ChemEng1642
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ChemEng1642 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:45 pm

What if your smaller market is Boston? Does that same rule apply?

What about if you have a hard science background and plan on doing something like patent?

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PotenC
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby PotenC » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:46 pm

malleus discentium wrote:
codyoneill wrote:
Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


Someone can probably answer this better than me, but going into HLS I thought they were pretty rare. In fact, I'd heard from fellow 0L's that 1L summer associate positions were common at CLS and uncommon at HLS.

I don't know what the numbers say across the board, but among my friends everyone who really wanted a 1L summer associate position at a firm got one. Applying is a lot of work (and a lot more work than getting a public interest internship) and interviews typically go weeks into the spring semester.

Self selection plays a big part. A lot of people would prefer to spend a summer working for the DOJ than working for a firm when they know that's where they'll be the following summer. And most people get public interest summer jobs in December or early January, while the firm jobs come later after a much more intense process.

Diversity plays a big part for firm summer associate positions too.

Not to call you out Cody ( :D ) but it is not true that among your friend group everyone who wanted a 1L SA got one, nor is it true that everyone you know who wanted one got one.
Nevertheless, I agree that they are considerably more common than I thought they were coming in. Diversity, grades and prestigious WE/UGs are common themes among people I know who got one.
Self-selection is also a factor. Despina is correct that we have SPIF, but I believe that this is standard among T14 schools. The more relevant consideration is that 1L SA money will wipe out a lot of the grants students get, so it's a less appealing option for the summer than PI is. (People take the grant hit during 2L SAs for obvious reasons.)


You can probably come out ahead with paid private sector work over PI, even with grants. Assuming full grants and paid work, HLS factors in a cost of living+tax allowance that totals ~$10k, and after that takes 90% of whatever earnings are left over. What this amounts to is that if your work over the summer pays >$10k you can came out a couple thousand dollars ahead than if you were on SPIF.

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:30 pm

jingosaur wrote:
Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


I tried really hard to get one and didn't, but I had several callbacks so I guess it's possible. Almost everyone that I know who got one is either diversity or in a smaller market where they have ties.



I had a similar experience. Lots of callbacks, no SA, in NYC. From what I understand, 1L SAs are hard to find in New York. My friends in a lot of other markets got, though.

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Single-Malt-Liquor
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Single-Malt-Liquor » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:41 pm

Mr. Elshal wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
Veronica2015 wrote:Maybe too early to think about this, but quite curious now: are summer associate positions after 1L difficult to get even at HLS? Is it harder for KJDs? Does previous internship in law firms make up for that? Thanks in advance for any input!


I tried really hard to get one and didn't, but I had several callbacks so I guess it's possible. Almost everyone that I know who got one is either diversity or in a smaller market where they have ties.



I had a similar experience. Lots of callbacks, no SA, in NYC. From what I understand, 1L SAs are hard to find in New York. My friends in a lot of other markets got, though.


Same experience in Boston. But fear not, all of the firm's that interviewed me for 1L gave me a 2L offer (some that didn't interview me gave an offer too).

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sk7415
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby sk7415 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:33 am

nothingtosee wrote:Eta: If you're sure you want this, you should go after it from very early on. When lawyers from firms/markets you're interested in give lunch talks, go to it, speak with them after, get their info, follow up. Even if they have no spots they might know someone who is. Technically recruiting doesn't start til dec 1, but I know multiple people who mass mailed firms in like October November, then ended up working there (you need to make sure you can visit their office at some point, preferably during winter break).


Isn't there a rule that states you can't contact employers or something until a certain date (early Dec I think)? Are you allowed to start reaching out for like informational interviews before then?

Unrelated question as an incoming 1L:

I'm thinking about trying to get Gropius/some kind of cheap dorm-like living, and I was wondering if I ended up in a place without an easily accessible kitchen, what would I be doing regularly for food? Are the cafeterias/restaurants good/cheap/accessible/healthy?

Thanks!

Veronica2015
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Veronica2015 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:28 am

Thanks very much for all the response! One follow-up question: does "diversity" have a different meaning in firm hiring from law school application?

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:19 am

Veronica2015 wrote:Thanks very much for all the response! One follow-up question: does "diversity" have a different meaning in firm hiring from law school application?

From 2 pages back:
lawlorbust wrote:
whompwhomp wrote:hey current students! the class of 2018 thread mentions that we should consider fine tuning diversity statements before the school year starts in preparation for the 1L summer job search. can anyone explain what the DS entails? is it pretty much the same as what people may have submitted in their law school apps? thanks in advance!


basically, yes. if there are specific firms that you intend to apply to, see if they 1) have a diversity program, 2) whether the application is still up and 3) whether there is a diversity prompt. if you reach step 3, then write around the prompt.

wwwcol
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wwwcol » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:57 am

sk7415 wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Eta: If you're sure you want this, you should go after it from very early on. When lawyers from firms/markets you're interested in give lunch talks, go to it, speak with them after, get their info, follow up. Even if they have no spots they might know someone who is. Technically recruiting doesn't start til dec 1, but I know multiple people who mass mailed firms in like October November, then ended up working there (you need to make sure you can visit their office at some point, preferably during winter break).


Isn't there a rule that states you can't contact employers or something until a certain date (early Dec I think)? Are you allowed to start reaching out for like informational interviews before then?

Unrelated question as an incoming 1L:

I'm thinking about trying to get Gropius/some kind of cheap dorm-like living, and I was wondering if I ended up in a place without an easily accessible kitchen, what would I be doing regularly for food? Are the cafeterias/restaurants good/cheap/accessible/healthy?

Thanks!


Don't worry about the Dec 1 rule. It's more relevant to firms than you. Informational interviews with lawyers are fine. If you send all your apps on Nov 28/29, you may be at a slight disadvantage because some firms will have already hired. I know a lot of people who were hooked up with SAs (edited to clarify: hooked up with CBs - I think a lot of people actually interviewed over winter break and J term) by mid Nov.

To your second question, you can't have all 4. The Hark is cheap and accessible (sometimes healthy but rarely good), Grubhub options are good, accessible, and can be healthy. The cheap (which I define as $10 or under per meal) places are really limited. I think the websites for porter and harvard sq have restaurants lists so that would give you specific names.
Last edited by wwwcol on Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby nothingtosee » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:19 am

wwwcol wrote:
sk7415 wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Eta: If you're sure you want this, you should go after it from very early on. When lawyers from firms/markets you're interested in give lunch talks, go to it, speak with them after, get their info, follow up. Even if they have no spots they might know someone who is. Technically recruiting doesn't start til dec 1, but I know multiple people who mass mailed firms in like October November, then ended up working there (you need to make sure you can visit their office at some point, preferably during winter break).


Isn't there a rule that states you can't contact employers or something until a certain date (early Dec I think)? Are you allowed to start reaching out for like informational interviews before then?

Unrelated question as an incoming 1L:

I'm thinking about trying to get Gropius/some kind of cheap dorm-like living, and I was wondering if I ended up in a place without an easily accessible kitchen, what would I be doing regularly for food? Are the cafeterias/restaurants good/cheap/accessible/healthy?

Thanks!


Don't worry about the Dec 1 rule. It's more relevant to firms than you. Informational interviews with lawyers are fine. If you send all your apps on Nov 28/29, you may be at a slight disadvantage because some firms will have already hired. I know a lot of people who were hooked up with SAs by mid Nov.

To your second question, you can't have all 4. The Hark is cheap and accessible (sometimes healthy but rarely good), Grubhub options are good, accessible, and can be healthy. The cheap (which I define as $10 or under per meal) places are really limited around campus. I think the websites for porter and harvard sq have restaurants lists so that would give you specific names.


Agree about the Dec 1 rule - I sent emailed out resumes and coverletters throughout November, I also spent most of PSW (A pretty worthless ungraded January term course) mailing out resumes (but those were mostly too late). Some firms will email you back saying they can't talk to you until Dec 1. Some will set up phone calls, winter break meetings, etc

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:28 am

You guys mailed resumes before Dec. 1st? Damn. I thought that was an actual no-no. Also, idk anyone who got a job in November, but apparently there were some?

wwwcol
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wwwcol » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:30 am

Pneumonia wrote:You guys mailed resumes before Dec. 1st? Damn. I thought that was an actual no-no. Also, idk anyone who got a job in November, but apparently there were some?


Sorry, I just clarified my original post. I meant to say hooked up by Nov with callbacks for summer associate jobs.

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pylon
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby pylon » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:37 am

If any of you were admitted off the waitlist, would you mind sending me a PM?

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:12 pm

nothingtosee wrote:
wwwcol wrote:
sk7415 wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:Eta: If you're sure you want this, you should go after it from very early on. When lawyers from firms/markets you're interested in give lunch talks, go to it, speak with them after, get their info, follow up. Even if they have no spots they might know someone who is. Technically recruiting doesn't start til dec 1, but I know multiple people who mass mailed firms in like October November, then ended up working there (you need to make sure you can visit their office at some point, preferably during winter break).


Isn't there a rule that states you can't contact employers or something until a certain date (early Dec I think)? Are you allowed to start reaching out for like informational interviews before then?

Unrelated question as an incoming 1L:

I'm thinking about trying to get Gropius/some kind of cheap dorm-like living, and I was wondering if I ended up in a place without an easily accessible kitchen, what would I be doing regularly for food? Are the cafeterias/restaurants good/cheap/accessible/healthy?

Thanks!


Don't worry about the Dec 1 rule. It's more relevant to firms than you. Informational interviews with lawyers are fine. If you send all your apps on Nov 28/29, you may be at a slight disadvantage because some firms will have already hired. I know a lot of people who were hooked up with SAs by mid Nov.

To your second question, you can't have all 4. The Hark is cheap and accessible (sometimes healthy but rarely good), Grubhub options are good, accessible, and can be healthy. The cheap (which I define as $10 or under per meal) places are really limited around campus. I think the websites for porter and harvard sq have restaurants lists so that would give you specific names.


Agree about the Dec 1 rule - I sent emailed out resumes and coverletters throughout November, I also spent most of PSW (A pretty worthless ungraded January term course) mailing out resumes (but those were mostly too late). Some firms will email you back saying they can't talk to you until Dec 1. Some will set up phone calls, winter break meetings, etc



I asked attorneys out to coffee, did a few office visits, and prepared all my cover letters, resumes, etc. before December 1, thinking that sending before then was a problem. On December 1 I sent out like 45 or 50 emails to firms with my info. 10 firms said they don't hire 1Ls (just bad research on my part), and 15 or 20 just never responded, and maybe another 10 or 15 told me they had already filled all their 1L slots.

I don't understand the 12/1 thing, but I can tell you for a fact that some firms will fill all their 1L slots before that date. Don't know how, don't know why, but it wasn't even like they were hiding it, so there must be something more to this rule that I don't know about.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:24 pm

Mr. Elshal wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:
wwwcol wrote:Don't worry about the Dec 1 rule. It's more relevant to firms than you. Informational interviews with lawyers are fine. If you send all your apps on Nov 28/29, you may be at a slight disadvantage because some firms will have already hired. I know a lot of people who were hooked up with SAs by mid Nov.

To your second question, you can't have all 4. The Hark is cheap and accessible (sometimes healthy but rarely good), Grubhub options are good, accessible, and can be healthy. The cheap (which I define as $10 or under per meal) places are really limited around campus. I think the websites for porter and harvard sq have restaurants lists so that would give you specific names.


Agree about the Dec 1 rule - I sent emailed out resumes and coverletters throughout November, I also spent most of PSW (A pretty worthless ungraded January term course) mailing out resumes (but those were mostly too late). Some firms will email you back saying they can't talk to you until Dec 1. Some will set up phone calls, winter break meetings, etc



I asked attorneys out to coffee, did a few office visits, and prepared all my cover letters, resumes, etc. before December 1, thinking that sending before then was a problem. On December 1 I sent out like 45 or 50 emails to firms with my info. 10 firms said they don't hire 1Ls (just bad research on my part), and 15 or 20 just never responded, and maybe another 10 or 15 told me they had already filled all their 1L slots.

I don't understand the 12/1 thing, but I can tell you for a fact that some firms will fill all their 1L slots before that date. Don't know how, don't know why, but it wasn't even like they were hiding it, so there must be something more to this rule that I don't know about.


this is insanity though. I mean, what you did is very impressive, don't get me wrong. NY firms move more quickly than other markets so maybe that's why. But PSA to incoming 1Ls, you don't need to engage in pre-december striverdom to get a summer job. I didn't think about summer jobs until winter break, had a bunch of CBs in january and got 1L SA offers in february. There are always people who have their shit together by late november/early december of 1L, but its a minority so don't feel bad or screwed if you aren't in that set.

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:12 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Mr. Elshal wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:
wwwcol wrote:Don't worry about the Dec 1 rule. It's more relevant to firms than you. Informational interviews with lawyers are fine. If you send all your apps on Nov 28/29, you may be at a slight disadvantage because some firms will have already hired. I know a lot of people who were hooked up with SAs by mid Nov.

To your second question, you can't have all 4. The Hark is cheap and accessible (sometimes healthy but rarely good), Grubhub options are good, accessible, and can be healthy. The cheap (which I define as $10 or under per meal) places are really limited around campus. I think the websites for porter and harvard sq have restaurants lists so that would give you specific names.


Agree about the Dec 1 rule - I sent emailed out resumes and coverletters throughout November, I also spent most of PSW (A pretty worthless ungraded January term course) mailing out resumes (but those were mostly too late). Some firms will email you back saying they can't talk to you until Dec 1. Some will set up phone calls, winter break meetings, etc



I asked attorneys out to coffee, did a few office visits, and prepared all my cover letters, resumes, etc. before December 1, thinking that sending before then was a problem. On December 1 I sent out like 45 or 50 emails to firms with my info. 10 firms said they don't hire 1Ls (just bad research on my part), and 15 or 20 just never responded, and maybe another 10 or 15 told me they had already filled all their 1L slots.

I don't understand the 12/1 thing, but I can tell you for a fact that some firms will fill all their 1L slots before that date. Don't know how, don't know why, but it wasn't even like they were hiding it, so there must be something more to this rule that I don't know about.


this is insanity though. I mean, what you did is very impressive, don't get me wrong. NY firms move more quickly than other markets so maybe that's why. But PSA to incoming 1Ls, you don't need to engage in pre-december striverdom to get a summer job. I didn't think about summer jobs until winter break, had a bunch of CBs in january and got 1L SA offers in february. There are always people who have their shit together by late november/early december of 1L, but its a minority so don't feel bad or screwed if you aren't in that set.


jbagelboy is 100% right. I only did all that because I had heard how difficult it was to get something in NYC and I wanted to do everything I could to up my chances. A lot of my friends who did get 1L SA positions started later (some much later, but in easier markets).

Sorry for being unclear. I should have clarified.

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Nonconsecutive
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Nonconsecutive » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:42 pm

Does anyone know how they determine the size of a class? I was looking at Dope and one of the classes I wanted to get into decreased in size by nearly 50 spots (which subsequently messed up my referencing masta-plan and now I'm waitlisted for it).




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