Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
esther0123
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby esther0123 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:39 pm

Are you ever really able to tell who will do well and who won't, given no lack of indication on the extreme end (e.g. melting down, never in class, etc.)?

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:10 pm

esther0123 wrote:Are you ever really able to tell who will do well and who won't, given no lack of indication on the extreme end (e.g. melting down, never in class, etc.)?


Nope.

Also, you qualified that with "given no lack of indication on the extreme end," but I have plenty of friends who got H's despite never reading, rarely showing up, melting down during finals week, etc. Point being its a crapshoot and you have no idea where you'll fall on the curve

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:07 pm

Fred012 wrote:somebody told me that OCI employers look at your 1L elective and ask about it? seems like corporations would be good for someone trying to sell a transactional interest then, no?

No.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:31 pm

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
esther0123 wrote:Are you ever really able to tell who will do well and who won't, given no lack of indication on the extreme end (e.g. melting down, never in class, etc.)?


Nope.

Also, you qualified that with "given no lack of indication on the extreme end," but I have plenty of friends who got H's despite never reading, rarely showing up, melting down during finals week, etc. Point being its a crapshoot and you have no idea where you'll fall on the curve


there must be a correlation between the kids that talk all the time and above average grades

despina
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby despina » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:14 pm

Fred012 wrote:there must be a correlation between the kids that talk all the time and above average grades


Not necessarily. Totally anecdotal, but many (most?) of the people from my section who made law review were folks who almost never volunteered in class. And there were definitely folks who talked a lot the first semester and were mysteriously much more reserved the second...

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:06 pm

esther0123 wrote:Are you ever really able to tell who will do well and who won't, given no lack of indication on the extreme end (e.g. melting down, never in class, etc.)?


I had a vague guess about one or two people in my section, but I couldn't put my finger on what it was exactly that gave me the sense they weren't doing well. I didn't use class attendance as part of it, there was one kid who skipped frequently who I presumed (correctly) would do fine. I was also unsurprised by law review results. But I couldn't begin to tell you what gave me the (accurate) feeling. I have no idea.

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:06 pm

Have been hearing a lot from OCS/OPIA this week, as well as 2L's and 3L's. They've all de-emphasized the importance of grades and told us that we don't need to worry because we're all going to get jobs, the light shines bright, etc.

Obviously grades matter for "prestigious" work, but as someone who just wants a BigLit job in the south, should I be as zen as OCS says or are they over-emphasizing that?

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:08 pm

I knew people in my class who graduated without jobs, and not for lack of trying. While the vast majority of people end up graduating with jobs (and jobs they desired), there are a few every year who don't, and I think it's sort of insensitive to pretend they don't exist.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:26 am

Pneumonia wrote:Have been hearing a lot from OCS/OPIA this week, as well as 2L's and 3L's. They've all de-emphasized the importance of grades and told us that we don't need to worry because we're all going to get jobs, the light shines bright, etc.

Obviously grades matter for "prestigious" work, but as someone who just wants a BigLit job in the south, should I be as zen as OCS says or are they over-emphasizing that?


Depends where in the "south". The TX markets are very different than FL or Atl.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:43 am

in southern markets, it comes down to your ties and personality. not how many Hs vs Ps you got at Harvard Law School. Come on

not including Tx markets which are more akin to NYC than to..the south.

just network. stop rereading cases 5 times. ur good w the degree

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Pneumonia
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:24 am

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
Pneumonia wrote:Have been hearing a lot from OCS/OPIA this week, as well as 2L's and 3L's. They've all de-emphasized the importance of grades and told us that we don't need to worry because we're all going to get jobs, the light shines bright, etc.

Obviously grades matter for "prestigious" work, but as someone who just wants a BigLit job in the south, should I be as zen as OCS says or are they over-emphasizing that?


Depends where in the "south". The TX markets are very different than FL or Atl.


I'm primarily interested in Texas- also from there, went to UG there etc.

Stylistics
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Stylistics » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:17 pm

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
esther0123 wrote:Are you ever really able to tell who will do well and who won't, given no lack of indication on the extreme end (e.g. melting down, never in class, etc.)?


Nope.

Also, you qualified that with "given no lack of indication on the extreme end," but I have plenty of friends who got H's despite never reading, rarely showing up, melting down during finals week, etc. Point being its a crapshoot and you have no idea where you'll fall on the curve


So why did it sound like the consensus was that my "hornbook only + outline bank outline + commerical outline" approach was a recipe for disaster?

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:21 pm

Pneumonia wrote:I'm primarily interested in Texas- also from there, went to UG there etc.

There are some posts earlier in the topic that could be dredged up, but my vague sense is that Texas biglaw is mostly not enormously grade selective (compared to DC for sure, but also probably compared to California or upper-echelon NYC). It probably varies a bit by firm, but I think you can make do with just an H or two and be fine. Try not to LP anything.

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:22 pm

Stylistics wrote:So why did it sound like the consensus was that my "hornbook only + outline bank outline + commerical outline" approach was a recipe for disaster?

I know people who did pretty well doing that (well, sort of that) in 2L and 3L years. I can't think of anybody who did it well during 1L year, at least not first semester.

That's why, out of scientific curiosity, I'd like to know what happens to you if you do it.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:00 am

tomwatts wrote:
Stylistics wrote:So why did it sound like the consensus was that my "hornbook only + outline bank outline + commerical outline" approach was a recipe for disaster?

I know people who did pretty well doing that (well, sort of that) in 2L and 3L years. I can't think of anybody who did it well during 1L year, at least not first semester.

That's why, out of scientific curiosity, I'd like to know what happens to you if you do it.


because your probably not as smart as them. again, this is HLS not state school dude

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Mr. Elshal
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:31 pm

Fred012 wrote:somebody told me that OCI employers look at your 1L elective and ask about it? seems like corporations would be good for someone trying to sell a transactional interest then, no?


This never came up in any of my interviews. This despite that my elective was my only H in the Spring and it had no direct connection to corporate or transactional law (although, I guess if you try hard enough, it's all connected).

The only time electives came up was when, in a couple of interviews, recent HLS alums asked why I hadn't taken Negotiation Workshop and whether I had applied.

I recommend shooting for Negotiation Workshop. I didn't do it last year and had to preference it first to get it this year (thus using up a very valuable preference slot). If you can't or don't do Negotiation, do the simplest 2-credit course you can find. No need to add the stress of Corps or Tax to your 1L year.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:50 pm

Caveat about tax: a lot of tax depts. hire separately from the rest of the summer associate class. So if you don't realize you want to do it, it can be somewhat difficult to switch into, depending on the firm you end up at. If you think you might really like tax, it might be worth it to take it as a 1L. I wouldn't do this unless you have a fairly strong notion of this, though.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:51 pm

3L'S - are you guys getting any $$$ from your firms during 3L (either as a signing bonus, salary advance, etc.)?

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:21 pm

Fred012 wrote:3L'S - are you guys getting any $$$ from your firms during 3L (either as a signing bonus, salary advance, etc.)?

I've never heard of that in the current market. They do cover bar expenses, though, if you've accepted their offer already — though those usually aren't incurred until the summer after 3L year.

NoLongerALurker
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby NoLongerALurker » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:45 pm

tomwatts wrote:
Stylistics wrote:So why did it sound like the consensus was that my "hornbook only + outline bank outline + commerical outline" approach was a recipe for disaster?

I know people who did pretty well doing that (well, sort of that) in 2L and 3L years. I can't think of anybody who did it well during 1L year, at least not first semester.

That's why, out of scientific curiosity, I'd like to know what happens to you if you do it.



Civ Pro: Never read casebook, attended most classes but didn't really pay attention or know what was going on. H via hornbook and outline bank (no commercial outline). H.

Contracts: Read casebook, attended class,but didn't take notes and didn't study for exam except for reading a hornbook 5 days before and bringing a commercial outline that I hadn't read into exam. H.

Crim: Took notes, read all cases, participated in class actively, used bank outline, P

LegReg: Didn't take notes, missed some classes, used bank outline, read most cases, hornbook, H (but when I say read hornbook, I mean read that thing like my life depended on it and basically memorized all 400 pages of it)

Torts: Never missed class, but never read casebook. Hornbook and bank outline. P. Probably nearly an LP. Was stressed after handing in.

Property: Read every case + participated actively in class + used outline bank + hornbook = P


TL;DR RESULTS:
Never made own outline, did about 70% of my readings, attended between 70-100% of classes depending on time of day, never embarrassed self in class but never volunteered either.
This would have assured me a 4.0 at the state school I'd gone to previously, I think, because it's slightly more work than I did in undergrad and I managed a 4.0 back then.

Course in which I did least, got H. Course in which I did most, got P. Rest of courses flirted between nearly-an-LP (I think) and H's. 3H/3P on the core courses.

Tried pretty hard for law review and didn't make it. Don't think anything would have really changed that. As for class, I think if I'd gone super intense about classes I might have picked up a few more H's, but not enough to warrant the extra work. I do have the problem moving forward of legitimately not fully understanding torts, though.

hlsperson1111
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby hlsperson1111 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:44 pm

I know my firm gives a stipend (it's in the low 5 figures) to incoming associates in addition to bar fees. West Coast office of a non-NYC, non-CA native firm. I did not get the stipend (I clerked and was not able to accept my offer until this summer) but I know other people in my class did.

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patogordo
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby patogordo » Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:48 pm

yea i wouldn't expect to get anything until summer

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:55 pm

Some firms give advances on your first-year salary so you can survive over the summer.

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heythatslife
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby heythatslife » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:22 pm

How time-consuming is the Negotiation Workshop? I'm interested in it but I don't want to risk my 1L spring semester grades either.

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby BlakcMajikc » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:42 pm

tomwatts wrote:
Fred012 wrote:3L'S - are you guys getting any $$$ from your firms during 3L (either as a signing bonus, salary advance, etc.)?

I've never heard of that in the current market. They do cover bar expenses, though, if you've accepted their offer already — though those usually aren't incurred until the summer after 3L year.


http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-firm ... rst-years/

via

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/04/which-fi ... -advances/




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