Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:27 am

1. I've tried to catch up using E&Es but they've been inadequate. For example, Glannon's E&E for CivPro is universally recommended but doesn't even mention opportunity to be heard, unless it's in the actual E&E sections which I haven't gotten to yet. Should I also get a "here's what the law is" treatise like Chemerinsky to keep up throughout the semester, then use E&Es to do well on the finals? Or am I basically screwed if I don't read the casebook for 1L classes?

Outlines.

2. Visiting profs--I figure I'll never see them again or ask them for recommendations so is "cultivating relationships" with them basically pointless too?

Depends on what you need a recommender for. If it's a clerkship you're after you'll need an HLS prof. If you want to add someone to a list of references to give to firms/summer internships, a visiting prof is often quite willing to be listed.

4. LRW isn't blind, so should I avoid being seen as the person who bickers over grade technicalities? ("well technically this component has no weight so how can there be a penalty against something that has no weight"). In undergrad my grades were usually unambiguously one thing or another so I never really waved the syllabus because I figured I had more to lose by making a bad impression on the prof.

Yes. Were you planning on turning in a terrible draft and telling the Climenko that it doesn't count toward your grade anyway in conference? That would be a bad idea.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:41 pm

wow...

acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:39 pm

Someone in my section ended up working for a visiting prof during his 2L SA (like she was one of the partners who gave him assignments) and he'll be continuing to work with her after graduation. One of my visiting profs is actually a pretty big name in the field I've gone into, and at work when I've mentioned him people all know who he is, so I'm happy I cultivated a relationship with him. So, visiting profs are not necessarily irrelevant, no.

E&E for CivPro is supposed to help you if you're just really confused and can't get the basics. Otherwise old, reliable outlines that actually track with the class are going to be more useful.

Also I did all my reading for 1L and recommend it.

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:53 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Someone in my section ended up working for a visiting prof during his 2L SA (like she was one of the partners who gave him assignments) and he'll be continuing to work with her after graduation. One of my visiting profs is actually a pretty big name in the field I've gone into, and at work when I've mentioned him people all know who he is, so I'm happy I cultivated a relationship with him. So, visiting profs are not necessarily irrelevant, no.

E&E for CivPro is supposed to help you if you're just really confused and can't get the basics. Otherwise old, reliable outlines that actually track with the class are going to be more useful.

Also I did all my reading for 1L and recommend it.

I agree with pretty much all of this and just want to add some additional color.

On the outlines, "old" outlines in the sense of from last year or the year before are pretty good. Be wary of things that are, like, 10 years old — none of your 1L subjects have changed enormously in that time, but Leg Reg has had some cases that matter in the past few years, and so has Civ Pro. And a prof may just teach differently now than 10 years ago.

Also, bear in mind that the outline was not the thing that got the person the grade. It was the exam the person wrote. I've seen DS outlines that are not good at all. I've seen P outlines that are very good. If you consult prior outlines, be careful.

I didn't much consult prior outlines in my first year, and I think that helped me. I just looked to see vaguely how to structure an outline and then did something that worked for me. This was time-consuming but effective.

On the visiting professor point, it turns out that one of my visiting professors was extremely professionally useful to me. He was working in a niche field in a city that I want to work in and was able to talk with me about it, which was great. So yeah, don't discount visiting professors solely because they're visiting. (To be fair, I've never seen or heard from the other one I had during 1L year again and he seems to have no relation to anything that I'm interested in. But still.)

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jrf12886
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby jrf12886 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:01 pm

Stylistics wrote:I came in thinking that keeping up with the readings is pointless because at my undergrad, professors dumped hundreds of pages on us for no particular reason or benefit....My opinion on that hasn't changed--I still think my time is better spent doing other things. I've also missed a handful of classes (other places to be, oversleeping).


Except for a handful of people for whom law school comes naturally, this mindset is a recipe for poor grades. I would recommend doing the reading and going to lecture. Things that worked in college often don't work in law school. At this point I would start with the E&E and then read the major cases in your casebook. Also, get a good outline from someone who got a good grade in the class. You should try to get back in track before you get even more behind.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:10 pm

your already up a creek. start going to class

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:42 am

jrf12886 wrote:
Stylistics wrote:I came in thinking that keeping up with the readings is pointless because at my undergrad, professors dumped hundreds of pages on us for no particular reason or benefit....My opinion on that hasn't changed--I still think my time is better spent doing other things. I've also missed a handful of classes (other places to be, oversleeping).


Except for a handful of people for whom law school comes naturally, this mindset is a recipe for poor grades. I would recommend doing the reading and going to lecture. Things that worked in college often don't work in law school. At this point I would start with the E&E and then read the major cases in your casebook. Also, get a good outline from someone who got a good grade in the class. You should try to get back in track before you get even more behind.

Actually don't do any of this. I've often wondered how it would work out. Please report back in late January.

Stylistics
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Stylistics » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:54 am

Depends on what you need a recommender for. If it's a clerkship you're after you'll need an HLS prof. If you want to add someone to a list of references to give to firms/summer internships, a visiting prof is often quite willing to be listed.


You need references for firms/summer internships? Does this mean that if you plan on applying for 1LSAs during the upcoming winter, you need 1 or 2 references from your 1L Fall? Crap I didn't know this. If I had known this I might've joined one of those reading groups which otherwise seemed like a waste of time.

You think I can still get back on my feet with my 2 or 3 profs who are actually at HLS and blame my first month on "developing a pace and a routine"? I can start appearing as if I know what I'm talking about in class, but no one came to law school to learn about 1L course topics or these profs' specialities. Is just appearing active in class enough to get them to agree to be a reference for 1LSA purposes? Because if so I can start fresh with some other profs next semester for EIP.

acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:25 am

Fortune favors the prepared. Stop trying to figure out what the absolute minimum effort is needed for 1L and things will fall into place.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:49 am

you don't letters of rec for a firm you just need professional references who they can call to make sure things check out on you (less likely they will actually call for a 1L summer)

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:53 am

acrossthelake wrote:Fortune favors the prepared. Stop trying to figure out what the absolute minimum effort is needed for 1L and things will fall into place.

Calling troll.

acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:32 am

wert3813 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Fortune favors the prepared. Stop trying to figure out what the absolute minimum effort is needed for 1L and things will fall into place.

Calling troll.


While I think most people who post with questions here are too neurotic, in this case I'm calling too relaxed. I'm basically in my dream straight out of law school job right now (seriously, I love going to work so much), and this result was a result of right time, right place, but also having ducks lined up that I hadn't specifically strategized to have, including a relationship with a 1L prof. I didn't form this relationship with a particular job in mind, just a sense that it seemed prudent.

I don't think there's much use in stressing over 1L, but I absolutely think putting in your best effort without stressing about it is worthwhile.

And while I laid off the gas pedal in regards to classes during 2L and 3L, I didn't divert all that time to just chilling. I did other things that ended up paying off, even if I didn't realize just how much it would by luck.

robotrick
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby robotrick » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:34 pm

My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:11 pm

robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


don't worry too much bout the cold calls / facts of the cases, thats likely whats taking up most your time. its fine if u don't look brilliant in class. just get the rule / policy implications and know how to apply them in an exam. in other words, sleep is better - your facing diminishing marginal utility at that stage

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jingosaur
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby jingosaur » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:48 pm

Can an upperclassman (or upperclasswoman) explain the 1L cup? Should I go? If my section loses will I get made fun of?

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:00 pm

big deal. laugh at the gunners

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Single-Malt-Liquor
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Single-Malt-Liquor » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:04 pm

Gunners at the 1L cup doesn't even make sense.

It's fun field games and a chance to bond with your section.

Unless you're in Section 4. Then it's a chance to be ridiculed. That's historical, I dont make the rules.

And there's free booze!

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:13 pm

I remember walking by 1L cup when I was a 1L. There were a lot of people standing around and drinking and shouting. It looked pretty stupid.

Fred012
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Fred012 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:25 pm

Single-Malt-Liquor wrote:Gunners at the 1L cup doesn't even make sense.

It's fun field games and a chance to bond with your section.

Unless you're in Section 4. Then it's a chance to be ridiculed. That's historical, I dont make the rules.

And there's free booze!


see: Section 5 2017.... (20 TLSers)

eleemosynary2
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby eleemosynary2 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:27 pm

robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


No one class is worth crowding out the rest of your life, and I'd say that's especially true for civ pro, which you can largely learn from Glannon. 1L is largely about balance.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:32 pm

robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


Who's the prof? Maybe someone here will have advice or helpful tips on what (s)he is looking for in exams.

robotrick
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby robotrick » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:58 am

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


Who's the prof? Maybe someone here will have advice or helpful tips on what (s)he is looking for in exams.

Glenn Cohen

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TripTrip
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:08 pm

robotrick wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


Who's the prof? Maybe someone here will have advice or helpful tips on what (s)he is looking for in exams.

Glenn Cohen

Focus on understanding the basics and avoid the weeds. The foundation of Cohen's exams is still just PJ/SMJ/venue. If you understand those you'll be fine.

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:11 pm

robotrick wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


Who's the prof? Maybe someone here will have advice or helpful tips on what (s)he is looking for in exams.

Glenn Cohen
Cohen is perhaps the most organized teacher I've ever had. He also went to the trouble to create the online book to save you reading. As someone who didn't do plenty of reading last year in other classes I feel that there really is no substitute for doing Cohens reading. (Cue one of my classmates saying they never read for Cohen in 3 2 1.) His exam is challenging, but there are patterns if you do all the practice exams.

ddoodle
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ddoodle » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:52 pm

robotrick wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:
robotrick wrote:My Civ Pro assignments on a weekly basis take up more time than the other 3 classes combined (not just # of pages but also level detail required by prof) and it's getting to the point where I simply can't keep up with the readings and do everything else (readings for other classes, journal, reading group, SPO, maintain physical and mental health). Is this a standard experience?
I get the impression that Civ Pro is a complicated topic by nature, but I also suspect that a lot of the difficulty I'm having is a result of poorly organized material and a teaching style that isn't about teaching. It comes down to a nightly decision of sleep vs Civ Pro and usually sleep wins out but I'm feeling pretty lost in the material as a result. I guess what I'm saying is that I could use advice if anyone has some to give.


Who's the prof? Maybe someone here will have advice or helpful tips on what (s)he is looking for in exams.

Glenn Cohen


Cohen's class was one of the few classes where I felt it was worth it to do all the reading. Once the class gets into PJ, SMJ, Venue, Joinder, and Res Judicata, the reading will become lighter and the E&E will become a lot more useful. Just hang in there! And go to office hours or reach out to classmates to clarify anything you don't understand. I think Cohen told us last year that it's better to review after class than to kill yourself making sure to internalize everything before class, and I think this was pretty good advice.




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