Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
06162014123
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:40 pm

.

Postby 06162014123 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:53 am

.
Last edited by 06162014123 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

delusional
Posts: 1190
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby delusional » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:06 pm

RedShift wrote:
liammial wrote:Why sift through 145 pages of information (even with the search feature) when I could get an up-to-date response to all of my questions with no work?

No work for you. The current students have already done the work of answering those questions. And the information is hardly out of date - people have asked those questions this cycle.
I am a 3L who has attempted both asked and answered a lot of those questions. In defense of those people asking the same questions all over again, the idea that the information exists is only part of what people are looking for when they participate in a topic like this. Asking questions and getting answers from people who are live and participating, and are likely to share both the campus and the TLS topic for a bit of the future is part of the purpose of TLS (or should be). There is nothing wrong with someone preferring to engage with someone who had a meeting with financial services last week over finding an old answer from someone who got financial aid in 2008. If people don't want to type out the answers again then no one is forcing them to.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:54 pm

delusional wrote:
RedShift wrote:
liammial wrote:Why sift through 145 pages of information (even with the search feature) when I could get an up-to-date response to all of my questions with no work?

No work for you. The current students have already done the work of answering those questions. And the information is hardly out of date - people have asked those questions this cycle.
I am a 3L who has attempted both asked and answered a lot of those questions. In defense of those people asking the same questions all over again, the idea that the information exists is only part of what people are looking for when they participate in a topic like this. Asking questions and getting answers from people who are live and participating, and are likely to share both the campus and the TLS topic for a bit of the future is part of the purpose of TLS (or should be). There is nothing wrong with someone preferring to engage with someone who had a meeting with financial services last week over finding an old answer from someone who got financial aid in 2008. If people don't want to type out the answers again then no one is forcing them to.


I agree and to some extent acknowledged that in my prior post as well. I would not really go through 145 pages looking for an answer to my question (that's why what acrossthelake is doing by updating a commonly asked and answered questions portion on the front page is a smart idea), but at the same time, I also understand that I'm inconveniencing others by asking a question that has been asked time and time again (and that I just can't be bothered to spend 10 minutes looking for an answer). As such, I would just be a bit more considerate and nice in asking because I realize people are doing me a favor, not the other way around. It's the opposite attitude (i.e., as if the asker deserves more from responders) that I think elicits harsh responses from others/rubs people the wrong way.

liammial
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby liammial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:00 pm

.
Last edited by liammial on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TripTrip
Posts: 2740
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby TripTrip » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:04 pm

Negotiation Workshop for winter term instead of during a full semester. Yea or nay?

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:07 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:Generally speaking though, when virtually everyone in a room disagrees with you, it can only mean two things: 1) you're wrong or 2) you're smarter than everyone else in the room and they're wrong. Seeing as how this has to do more with maturity and social skills, #2 is probably inapplicable, but even if it could apply to this situation, consider that you're also in a room with some pretty smart people :P


liammial wrote:Yes, no work for me. Also, no work for anyone who doesn't want to type an answer out. It's entirely up to the current Harvard student; no one is obligated to respond. Clearly the person responding wants to, or he/she wouldn't respond. If you thought the questions were dumb, then don't answer them. It's really quite simple. My initial questions were not rude or immature, but some of the responses I've gotten here are.

So please STFU about being me being selfish and whatnot. I got two wonderful PM's full of in-depth responses that I expressed my gratitude for.


No one being obligated doesn't somehow mean you're allowed to act like an ass. Again, it isn't so much your initial post that was that terrible (though it probably rubbed some the wrong way a little), but your subsequent douchey comments.

I also have to lawl at the bolded. I always tend to believe that those able to attend HLS are generally smarter, and thus more introspective. I guess I'm wrong. I would hate to have to work with you out in the real world, but I guess your type exists everywhere. /shrugs

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:09 pm

TripTrip wrote:Negotiation Workshop for winter term instead of during a full semester. Yea or nay?


Big Yea from me. I took it in the winter and loved it. It's more of a 9-5 experience, M-F, but just 3 weeks. No other classes to get in the way or worry about as the workshop, as fun as it is, can sometimes eat up a lot of time. You also get into a "negotiation mode" when it's all you do haha. imo, better guest lecturers during the winter than the fall as well.

Talked to a few friends who took it in the spring/fall and they mostly agree. Fun and a great experience either way, but probably less stressful at times if taken during the winter term.

liammial
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby liammial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:25 pm

.
Last edited by liammial on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr. Elshal
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:30 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:32 pm

For those who have taken a Transactional Law Clinic, would you recommend 3 or 4 credits? Is 4 overkill, or is 3 not enough, or does it not make much difference?

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:38 pm

Mr. Elshal wrote:For those who have taken a Transactional Law Clinic, would you recommend 3 or 4 credits? Is 4 overkill, or is 3 not enough, or does it not make much difference?


i'd do 4. generally speaking, 20 hours a week translates into 4 credits, 3 credits equal fifteen hours. depending on the clinic, if you take 3, you'll end up doing the work required for 4 credits anyways.

this is general advice, i don't have specific knowledge concerning what transpires in the transaction clinic, but generally, 5hrs/wk = 1 credit for clinics.

User avatar
Mr. Elshal
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:30 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mr. Elshal » Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:44 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
Mr. Elshal wrote:For those who have taken a Transactional Law Clinic, would you recommend 3 or 4 credits? Is 4 overkill, or is 3 not enough, or does it not make much difference?


i'd do 4. generally speaking, 20 hours a week translates into 4 credits, 3 credits equal fifteen hours. depending on the clinic, if you take 3, you'll end up doing the work required for 4 credits anyways.

this is general advice, i don't have specific knowledge concerning what transpires in the transaction clinic, but generally, 5hrs/wk = 1 credit for clinics.


Thank you. On a more general clinical note, do you know if the workshop components of clinics generally have any kind of exam or paper? And are they graded, or just for credit?

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:39 pm

liammial wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:Generally speaking though, when virtually everyone in a room disagrees with you, it can only mean two things: 1) you're wrong or 2) you're smarter than everyone else in the room and they're wrong. Seeing as how this has to do more with maturity and social skills, #2 is probably inapplicable, but even if it could apply to this situation, consider that you're also in a room with some pretty smart people :P


liammial wrote:Yes, no work for me. Also, no work for anyone who doesn't want to type an answer out. It's entirely up to the current Harvard student; no one is obligated to respond. Clearly the person responding wants to, or he/she wouldn't respond. If you thought the questions were dumb, then don't answer them. It's really quite simple. My initial questions were not rude or immature, but some of the responses I've gotten here are.

So please STFU about being me being selfish and whatnot. I got two wonderful PM's full of in-depth responses that I expressed my gratitude for.


No one being obligated doesn't somehow mean you're allowed to act like an ass. Again, it isn't so much your initial post that was that terrible (though it probably rubbed some the wrong way a little), but your subsequent douchey comments.

I also have to lawl at the bolded. I always tend to believe that those able to attend HLS are generally smarter, and thus more introspective. I guess I'm wrong. I would hate to have to work with you out in the real world, but I guess your type exists everywhere. /shrugs

Some guy told me my questions were stupid and didn't deserve a response, so I told him that he was wrong because I had gotten responses and that he had no reason to be a douche. That is the entirety of what I said. You are extrapolating a hell of a lot from an extremely brief exchange. Relax. I'm plenty introspective and I am very conscious of all that I do not know (seriously, sometimes to a fault). This is not a case of agreeing or disagreeing with anyone (and two people saying my post rubbed them the wrong way does not constitute "virtually everyone in a room").


I count 5-6 (if you include me) who you either rubbed the wrong way or directly called you out on it. Considering it's only been about 1 page in this thread, that's quite a number.

My initial reaction to reading your OP appears to be the same as wert's and ph14's (and maybe others), where it just rubbed me the wrong way. I might have still answered it, but it was not a good first impression. What's worse is your follow-up second impression was 10x worse.

If by now you still don't see why or how your initial post and subsequent responses would garner said reactions, I don't know what else to say. You're not going to realize it just because a stranger (me) continues to poke at it lol. I've also got very little (read: none) invested in your development or growth professionally or academically (nor, I imagine, would you want me to), so I think we'd both rather just agree to let this get buried in the 146 pages. I'll check back once the topics have fully shifted.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:44 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
Mr. Elshal wrote:For those who have taken a Transactional Law Clinic, would you recommend 3 or 4 credits? Is 4 overkill, or is 3 not enough, or does it not make much difference?


i'd do 4. generally speaking, 20 hours a week translates into 4 credits, 3 credits equal fifteen hours. depending on the clinic, if you take 3, you'll end up doing the work required for 4 credits anyways.

this is general advice, i don't have specific knowledge concerning what transpires in the transaction clinic, but generally, 5hrs/wk = 1 credit for clinics.


I heard this advice when I was in law school as well and took it. I sorta regret it. While Blessed is absolutely right that in a lot of clinics, people taking 3 credits will end up doing the work of 4 credit takers anyways, some clinics actually don't have enough work to sometimes efficiently fill up those 20 hours a week. This obviously varies from clinic to clinic.

My negotiation/mediation clinic was awesome in that there was no set schedule. We worked with our client and supervisor. Made our own schedule. One person had 2 credits, I took 3, and one took 4. We all did pretty much the same amount of work. While the 4 did maybe a bit more than the 2, it was more out of guilt. Just the way the work broke down, it didn't make sense to cleanly cut off at 10 hrs a week or 15 or whatever. You do what you gotta do haha.

On the other hand, at my capital punishment clinic, when I was working by myself and at home (spring is remote clinic work), I barely had enough work to fill up the 20 hours a week requirement. I would constantly ask and ask but there just wasn't always enough to give and give. Oddly enough, that caused more stress than with my mediation clinic haha (oh you precursor to the dreaded billable hour!).

Transactional clinic, I think, requires you to actually show up at a location and do the work. If that's true, then 15 hrs vs. 20 hrs would be very strictly enforced. I'd call the clinic and ask what their format is.

liammial
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:52 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby liammial » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:27 pm

.
Last edited by liammial on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:32 pm

Mr. Elshal wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Mr. Elshal wrote:For those who have taken a Transactional Law Clinic, would you recommend 3 or 4 credits? Is 4 overkill, or is 3 not enough, or does it not make much difference?


i'd do 4. generally speaking, 20 hours a week translates into 4 credits, 3 credits equal fifteen hours. depending on the clinic, if you take 3, you'll end up doing the work required for 4 credits anyways.

this is general advice, i don't have specific knowledge concerning what transpires in the transaction clinic, but generally, 5hrs/wk = 1 credit for clinics.


Thank you. On a more general clinical note, do you know if the workshop components of clinics generally have any kind of exam or paper? And are they graded, or just for credit?


it depends on the clinic. some are pass/fail, some are graded on the usual scale. some require a paper of sorts, others don't. there can be weird combinations too. i've had a clinic that didn't require a paper or anything (you just did the work) but was also graded on the usual scale (not pass/fail).

sometimes, the course description will tell you (mine didn't). a good rule of thumb is to stay on the waitlists for other clinics, in case you need to drop one or the other for any reason (including grading, which is a perfectly valid reason). staying on waitlists is important for another reason. most clinics have a required class component. so you might end up having to drop a clinic because its required class component conflicts with another class you really want to take etc. anyways, the answer to your question, in typically lawyerly fashion, is that it depends. sorry i couldn't be of much help.

Nyclawyer618
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Nyclawyer618 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:33 pm

Is HLAB worth doing if given the opportunity?

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:37 pm

Nyclawyer618 wrote:Is HLAB worth doing if given the opportunity?


most people who do it find it very rewarding. whether it's "worth" it is ultimately a personal decision and depends on what you're looking for.

justinp
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:33 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby justinp » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:44 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
Nyclawyer618 wrote:Is HLAB worth doing if given the opportunity?


most people who do it find it very rewarding. whether it's "worth" it is ultimately a personal decision and depends on what you're looking for.


Cosign. The folks I know who are in it love it, but I strongly doubt that any random HLS student would necessarily feel the same way. It's a pretty huge time commitment (maybe on par with HLR? Maybe more than HLR? idk) but if you pick your cases well you can get some amazing experience. At least one person has done a full federal bench trial this year (that might even qualify as the unicorn "international law" everyone is so jolly about) other folks have tried cases in state court, etc etc.

Basically if you're interested in direct services work there isn't much like it in the world, and if you're interested in getting a start on a lot of random practice skills it's a pretty good way to do that as well as far as I can tell.

User avatar
wert3813
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:29 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:49 pm

liammial wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
liammial wrote:How was that pretentious? Why sift through 145 pages of information (even with the search feature) when I could get an up-to-date response to all of my questions with no work? I appreciate all replies, but yours were about as vague as my questions and frankly pretty rude.


Liammial, your posts have all actually been somewhat rude, but mostly just immature. Not immature in a "I find the humor of a 12 yr old funny" way, but in a "I am still rather selfish and inconsiderate of others and only view things from my own perspective" sort of way. It's sad because I think it's a terrible foot to start off on at a law school you could potentially be going to, albeit most of this is anonymous (though some of us are more hidden than others).

Your initial post already rubbed most people (including myself) the wrong way due to both how vague it was (showing you haven't put the time or effort into thinking about the questions in a constructive way) and how you flippantly stated you can't be bothered to read through 145+ pages for your answers (showing you also don't feel like inconveniencing yourself, but seem fine inconveniencing other posters). Now there's nothing wrong with not wanting to read through 145+ pages for your answers -- I know I certainly wouldn't do it and would re-ask my questions here -- but you should realize then that other people are doing you a favor; taking their time out to try to essentially help save YOU time that you can't be bothered to spend yourself. Coming in then with poorly thought out questions, but more importantly, rude responses to those who did try to answer your questions, shows a level of immaturity and lack of acknowledgement that would definitely warrant a ding from me if I were to ever interview you for my firm. You wouldn't get the responses you are getting (mine included) had you just been more grateful and conciliatory to those that tried to help you, even if your original post remained the same.

Now before you end up trolling back hard or the like, I hope you really take time to consider the reactions you are getting and the reasons behind it. I've tried to lay them out from my perspective, though of course I could be wrong. Generally speaking though, when virtually everyone in a room disagrees with you, it can only mean two things: 1) you're wrong or 2) you're smarter than everyone else in the room and they're wrong. Seeing as how this has to do more with maturity and social skills, #2 is probably inapplicable, but even if it could apply to this situation, consider that you're also in a room with some pretty smart people :P


No work for you. The current students have already done the work of answering those questions. And the information is hardly out of date - people have asked those questions this cycle.

Yes, no work for me. Also, no work for anyone who doesn't want to type an answer out. It's entirely up to the current Harvard student; no one is obligated to respond. Clearly the person responding wants to, or he/she wouldn't respond. If you thought the questions were dumb, then don't answer them. It's really quite simple. My initial questions were not rude or immature, but some of the responses I've gotten here are.

So please STFU about being me being selfish and whatnot. I received two wonderful PM's full of in-depth responses that I expressed my gratitude for.


Telling future classmates to stfu is a nice touch.

politics89
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:50 am

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby politics89 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:53 pm

wert3813 wrote:Telling future classmates to stfu is a nice touch.


Serious question: are people like this at Harvard a lot? Or are people like this an anomoly?

User avatar
Pneumonia
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Pneumonia » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:56 pm

politics89 wrote:
wert3813 wrote:Telling future classmates to stfu is a nice touch.


Serious question: are people like this at Harvard a lot? Or are people like this an anomoly?


Judging by the rest of this thread (which I have read, and which is informative, and which is worthwhile because it answered questions I didn't think to have, and which didn't take that long) it is certainly the latter.

Nyclawyer618
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Nyclawyer618 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:59 pm

politics89 wrote:
wert3813 wrote:Telling future classmates to stfu is a nice touch.


Serious question: are people like this at Harvard a lot? Or are people like this an anomoly?


No, he or she is a special commodity.

User avatar
Blessedassurance
Posts: 2081
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:06 pm

politics89 wrote:
wert3813 wrote:Telling future classmates to stfu is a nice touch.


Serious question: are people like this at Harvard a lot? Or are people like this an anomoly?


there are 550+ students each year...personalities run the gamut. it's pretty easy to avoid people you can't stand.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:12 pm

liammial wrote:I count three. If you asked a question and someone told you it was "inane" and that no one else would respond, how would you react? If someone wants to be hostile over the internet, I'm fine returning the favor. I don't care about rubbing people on an anonymous internet forum the wrong way. For you to suggest that this reflects something about my actual personality is the only thing truly inane in this thread.


I count minimum 5. 5 people at least who disagree with you. But that's really not the issue here.

If I asked a bad question and someone said it was inane and that no one else would respond, how would I react? Probably not as you did. I didn't see wert's post to be particularly "hostile". Unsure if you just have difficulty judging the animosity of others and feeling the need to "[return] the favor."

And not caring about rubbing people on an anonymous internet forum the wrong way is your prerogative. I acknowledged that, but to say how you act online does not somehow reflect your personality? Um no, I think it definitely tells us something about your personality. Also, you'd be surprised how easy it is for people to actually figure out who you are irl based on your TLS comments/post history/etc.

As for the other posters who wondered if liammial is common at HLS, I would like to say, in my 3 yrs there, thankfully no. Most people seemed very well adjusted and pretty amiable. Were some socially awkward? Yep. Were there still some gunners? Yeah. But all in all, I was pleasantly surprised by how non-douchey my peers were (or at least the ones I got to know).

User avatar
charlie.black
Posts: 164
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby charlie.black » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:28 pm

anyone know if there are grade cutoffs for the boston offices of ropes, wilmerhale, or goodwin? top half-ish? thanks.




Return to “Ask a Law Student / Graduate”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: clueless801, mickey_mouse, optimistic_owl and 4 guests