Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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ph14
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ph14 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:32 am

neprep wrote:Can anyone speak to taking classes at one of the other schools, like HBS or the Kennedy School? My understanding is that the academic calendars don't jive across schools; so, if you want to take classes in these other schools, do you pretty much have to arrive earlier/stay later on campus?


Lots of people do it, I don't think it is too difficult. Look up the cross-registration website.

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PinkCow
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby PinkCow » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:44 am

neprep wrote:Can anyone speak to taking classes at one of the other schools, like HBS or the Kennedy School? My understanding is that the academic calendars don't jive across schools; so, if you want to take classes in these other schools, do you pretty much have to arrive earlier/stay later on campus?



I took 2 classes at HKS. It's a hassle but worth it if you find something you like. One class was probably the best class I've taken at Harvard. Some cons: both of my classes were 1 hr. 20 mins twice/week, and only counted for 2 credits each. I personally found one of the classes I took to be more work than most 3 or 4 credit LS classes, so it was kind of rough for just 2 credits, especially when you're in class for almost the same amount of time. Also, classes at HKS are typically every other day (e.g., Tuesday, Thursday) instead of back to back, which makes scheduling complicated. Also, you have to wait a month or so longer than other HKS students to get your grades because it goes through the law school. So, if there's any issue with your grade, you won't know until much later than everyone else. Also, the cross-registration system is really not good. You don't know for sure if you're in a class until past the add/drop date, and the whole process for getting into a class is just difficult and uncertain.

The academic calendar is quite similar. I think classes at HKS might start like a couple days early, but not that bad. They end basically the same as law school classes.


Grades are letter grades but they don't factor into your LS GPA calculations. They do show up on your transcript. The curve is pretty tight and you can generally expect an A- or a B+ unless you do really well or really poorly.

Also, this is just a random point, but the facilities at HKS are a little . . . old. Hallways, classrooms, and common areas are typically extremely cramped. Plus, the desks suuucckkkkkk.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:42 pm

PinkCow wrote:
neprep wrote:Can anyone speak to taking classes at one of the other schools, like HBS or the Kennedy School? My understanding is that the academic calendars don't jive across schools; so, if you want to take classes in these other schools, do you pretty much have to arrive earlier/stay later on campus?

I took 2 classes at HKS. It's a hassle but worth it if you find something you like. One class was probably the best class I've taken at Harvard. Some cons: both of my classes were 1 hr. 20 mins twice/week, and only counted for 2 credits each. I personally found one of the classes I took to be more work than most 3 or 4 credit LS classes, so it was kind of rough for just 2 credits, especially when you're in class for almost the same amount of time. Also, classes at HKS are typically every other day (e.g., Tuesday, Thursday) instead of back to back, which makes scheduling complicated. Also, you have to wait a month or so longer than other HKS students to get your grades because it goes through the law school. So, if there's any issue with your grade, you won't know until much later than everyone else. Also, the cross-registration system is really not good. You don't know for sure if you're in a class until past the add/drop date, and the whole process for getting into a class is just difficult and uncertain.

I'm a JD/MPP, so I take a lot of classes at HKS. A couple of extra things about this:

* The greatest hits at HKS are probably the best classes at Harvard. A few of them are so impacted with HKS students that they don't take cross-registrants at all. A few of them are a little complicated to get into, but you probably can if you're really, really persistent. A good number of them you can just take, because there's plenty of room. PM me if you want to know about a specific class; I can probably tell you about most of them. People say good things about HBS classes, but I know less about them.

* The weekly schedule is horribly in conflict. HLS has a consecutive-days-of-the-week system that no other Harvard campus has (as far as I know). Also, the times don't line up. So a lot of classes will overlap for 10 minutes once a week or something awkward like that, so you can't take them.

* Normally, a 0.5-credit module at HKS counts as 1 cross-registration credit. This is a class that meets for half the semester (which is super convenient for a law student, if it's the first half of the semester). A 1-credit class at HKS counts as 3 cross-registration credits. Assume that a 1-credit class at HKS (so, 3 cross-registration credits) is at least as much work as a 4-credit class at HLS.

PinkCow wrote:The academic calendar is quite similar. I think classes at HKS might start like a couple days early, but not that bad. They end basically the same as law school classes.

The calendar is technically aligned, but that doesn't mean very much. At HLS, the fall semester began on 9/3 (the day after Labor Day), but that just meant that 1L classes started then, and 2L/3L classes didn't start until 9/9. At HKS, the fall semester began on 9/3, but that meant that course shopping (sitting in on classes to see what you want to take) started on that day, and classes didn't begin until 9/5. Other campuses do things differently, too, e.g., the College starts all classes on 9/3. I don't know what HBS does, but it seems likely that it's slightly different, too.

The campuses also take different holidays. All campuses take Columbus Day off, but HLS uniquely takes the following day off, too. HKS takes Veterans Day off, but the other campuses don't. The list goes on.

In the spring, all the campuses start on the same day, but HLS ends classes on 4/25, and exams start on 4/29. HKS doesn't end classes until 5/2. HLS exams run through 5/8, and HKS classes run through 5/16.

The end result is that you have to get to campus a week (well, a few days, but the prior week) early in the fall or stay up to a week late in the spring, depending on the class's exam schedule.

PinkCow wrote:Grades are letter grades but they don't factor into your LS GPA calculations. They do show up on your transcript. The curve is pretty tight and you can generally expect an A- or a B+ unless you do really well or really poorly.

The HKS grade distribution is here.

PinkCow wrote:Also, this is just a random point, but the facilities at HKS are a little . . . old. Hallways, classrooms, and common areas are typically extremely cramped. Plus, the desks suuucckkkkkk.

Some of the rooms have been refurbished lately. The old L-130 was an affront to educational architecture. The room literally impeded my learning. The new L-130 is much better (though still small). If you get an unrefurbished room (RG-20), it may be a little awkward. If you get a refurbished room (Starr), it's pretty comparable to Austin or Langdell.

Oh, and walking down from HLS to HKS or HBS is kind of a hike. I don't normally mind — it's not more than 15 minutes at most to get to HKS, and probably no more than an extra 10 to get to anywhere at HBS — but in a snowstorm (as today) it can be a little more arduous. Today was one of my HLS-HKS-HLS-HKS-HLS days, so it was a little rough.
Last edited by tomwatts on Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ph14
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ph14 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:56 pm

tomwatts wrote:Oh, and walking down from HLS to HKS or HBS is kind of a hike. I don't normally mind — it's not more than 15 minutes at most to get to HKS, and probably no more than an extra 10 to get to anywhere at HBS — but in a snowstorm (as today) it can be a little more arduous. Today was one of my HLS-HKS-HLS-HKS-HLS days, so it was a little rough.



Lol wow. Today must have been rough for you.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:18 pm

ph14 wrote:
tomwatts wrote:Oh, and walking down from HLS to HKS or HBS is kind of a hike. I don't normally mind — it's not more than 15 minutes at most to get to HKS, and probably no more than an extra 10 to get to anywhere at HBS — but in a snowstorm (as today) it can be a little more arduous. Today was one of my HLS-HKS-HLS-HKS-HLS days, so it was a little rough.



Lol wow. Today must have been rough for you.

Yeah... yeah. I kind of needed an umbrella and kind of didn't think to bring one, because at first it was just snowing lightly.

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ph14
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ph14 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:20 pm

tomwatts wrote:
ph14 wrote:
tomwatts wrote:Oh, and walking down from HLS to HKS or HBS is kind of a hike. I don't normally mind — it's not more than 15 minutes at most to get to HKS, and probably no more than an extra 10 to get to anywhere at HBS — but in a snowstorm (as today) it can be a little more arduous. Today was one of my HLS-HKS-HLS-HKS-HLS days, so it was a little rough.



Lol wow. Today must have been rough for you.

Yeah... yeah. I kind of needed an umbrella and kind of didn't think to bring one, because at first it was just snowing lightly.


Yep. I didn't think it would get that bad. Luckily I didn't have to be outdoors during the worst of it.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby neprep » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:39 am

ph14 wrote:Lots of people do it, I don't think it is too difficult. Look up the cross-registration website.


PinkCow wrote:

I took 2 classes at HKS. It's a hassle but worth it if you find something you like. One class was probably the best class I've taken at Harvard. Some cons: both of my classes were 1 hr. 20 mins twice/week, and only counted for 2 credits each. I personally found one of the classes I took to be more work than most 3 or 4 credit LS classes, so it was kind of rough for just 2 credits, especially when you're in class for almost the same amount of time. Also, classes at HKS are typically every other day (e.g., Tuesday, Thursday) instead of back to back, which makes scheduling complicated. Also, you have to wait a month or so longer than other HKS students to get your grades because it goes through the law school. So, if there's any issue with your grade, you won't know until much later than everyone else. Also, the cross-registration system is really not good. You don't know for sure if you're in a class until past the add/drop date, and the whole process for getting into a class is just difficult and uncertain.

The academic calendar is quite similar. I think classes at HKS might start like a couple days early, but not that bad. They end basically the same as law school classes.


Grades are letter grades but they don't factor into your LS GPA calculations. They do show up on your transcript. The curve is pretty tight and you can generally expect an A- or a B+ unless you do really well or really poorly.

Also, this is just a random point, but the facilities at HKS are a little . . . old. Hallways, classrooms, and common areas are typically extremely cramped. Plus, the desks suuucckkkkkk.


tomwatts wrote:I'm a JD/MPP, so I take a lot of classes at HKS. A couple of extra things about this:

* The greatest hits at HKS are probably the best classes at Harvard. A few of them are so impacted with HKS students that they don't take cross-registrants at all. A few of them are a little complicated to get into, but you probably can if you're really, really persistent. A good number of them you can just take, because there's plenty of room. PM me if you want to know about a specific class; I can probably tell you about most of them. People say good things about HBS classes, but I know less about them.

* The weekly schedule is horribly in conflict. HLS has a consecutive-days-of-the-week system that no other Harvard campus has (as far as I know). Also, the times don't line up. So a lot of classes will overlap for 10 minutes once a week or something awkward like that, so you can't take them.

* Normally, a 0.5-credit module at HKS counts as 1 cross-registration credit. This is a class that meets for half the semester (which is super convenient for a law student, if it's the first half of the semester). A 1-credit class at HKS counts as 3 cross-registration credits. Assume that a 1-credit class at HKS (so, 3 cross-registration credits) is at least as much work as a 4-credit class at HLS.

PinkCow wrote:The academic calendar is quite similar. I think classes at HKS might start like a couple days early, but not that bad. They end basically the same as law school classes.

The calendar is technically aligned, but that doesn't mean very much. At HLS, the fall semester began on 9/3 (the day after Labor Day), but that just meant that 1L classes started then, and 2L/3L classes didn't start until 9/9. At HKS, the fall semester began on 9/3, but that meant that course shopping (sitting in on classes to see what you want to take) started on that day, and classes didn't begin until 9/5. Other campuses do things differently, too, e.g., the College starts all classes on 9/3. I don't know what HBS does, but it seems likely that it's slightly different, too.

The campuses also take different holidays. All campuses take Columbus Day off, but HLS uniquely takes the following day off, too. HKS takes Veterans Day off, but the other campuses don't. The list goes on.

In the spring, all the campuses start on the same day, but HLS ends classes on 4/25, and exams start on 4/29. HKS doesn't end classes until 5/2. HLS exams run through 5/8, and HKS classes run through 5/16.

The end result is that you have to get to campus a week (well, a few days, but the prior week) early in the fall or stay up to a week late in the spring, depending on the class's exam schedule.

PinkCow wrote:Grades are letter grades but they don't factor into your LS GPA calculations. They do show up on your transcript. The curve is pretty tight and you can generally expect an A- or a B+ unless you do really well or really poorly.

The HKS grade distribution is here.

PinkCow wrote:Also, this is just a random point, but the facilities at HKS are a little . . . old. Hallways, classrooms, and common areas are typically extremely cramped. Plus, the desks suuucckkkkkk.

Some of the rooms have been refurbished lately. The old L-130 was an affront to educational architecture. The room literally impeded my learning. The new L-130 is much better (though still small). If you get an unrefurbished room (RG-20), it may be a little awkward. If you get a refurbished room (Starr), it's pretty comparable to Austin or Langdell.

Oh, and walking down from HLS to HKS or HBS is kind of a hike. I don't normally mind — it's not more than 15 minutes at most to get to HKS, and probably no more than an extra 10 to get to anywhere at HBS — but in a snowstorm (as today) it can be a little more arduous. Today was one of my HLS-HKS-HLS-HKS-HLS days, so it was a little rough.


Thanks so much for the info! So on the one hand it looks like there are a few challenges surrounding cross registration, but on the other it seems like a good number of people go ahead and do it anyway.

Also, "HLS-HKS-HLS-HKS-HLS" sounds rough :shock:.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby paglababa » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:23 pm

Sweet info! Anyone with experience with cross registering for HBS want to chime in about your experience? Very interested in taking as many classes there as I can.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:55 am

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby polareagle » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:04 am

luckystar84 wrote:what matters will the Dean of Students help you with when it comes to navigating attorney licensing (taking the bar, getting supporting affidavits from professors, character and fitness etc)? or is it mostly "you're on your own"? With the large graduating class and everything, do they really do anything besides direct you to brochures (which is what my undergrad did)?

or someone besides the DoS the person to go to for that sort of thing?

Thanks


No personal experience, but this looks helpful:

--LinkRemoved--

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ph14
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ph14 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:05 am

luckystar84 wrote:what matters will the Dean of Students help you with when it comes to navigating attorney licensing (taking the bar, getting supporting affidavits from professors, character and fitness etc)? or is it mostly "you're on your own"? With the large graduating class and everything, do they really do anything besides direct you to brochures (which is what my undergrad did)?

or someone besides the DoS the person to go to for that sort of thing?

Thanks


Not sure that they really help you too much (unless perhaps you seek out help, which I haven't). I know that BarBri (and maybe other bar prep companies) have information sessions where they have someone talk about this and other issues (like when to apply).

So it's mainly on your own, but that's not really an issue. It's not something you have to worry about until 3L in any event.

The main things are:
(1) Take legal ethics or a qualifying course. This is a HLS and I think an ABA requirement. You don't have a choice in this so it's not a problem.
(2) Submit your moral character determination evaluation (I think, but am not certain, that this is a separate application in only some states). It's really not that bad. It's like applying to law school or something just with more questions and information needed. It has directions of what you have to fill out. You don't really need any help filling it out. It'll ask things like: have you every been convicted of a felony?; have you ever gotten an academic misconduct from your school?; list all addresses from the past 10 years. You don't need any "affidavits." You just need to list 5 references. Different states have different requirements regarding who can server as a reference. It's not a huge deal.
(3) The bar is mainly prepared for by taking a bar prep course. No one is really going to tell you about this but you get plenty of emails and there's no way you could miss it. Sign up timelines vary by state and you do have to stay on top of that. I think some of the bar prep companies might provide more information on this. In any event, you can find information yourself through Google and TLS.

It's not really anything worth worrying about before you are a 3L. And it's not really something that is too hard to figure out on your own or with help from TLS/Google.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby luckystar84 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:18 am

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby owlofminerva » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:14 am

luckystar84 wrote:but if you seek it, are they there to help? I in another thread that the finaid office basically just copy pastes policies to you, and I wondered if the Dean of Students does something similar.


Yes, they will help if you seek it. Sure, they will just guide you to websites or brochures or whatever if you are asking for just basic information. However, if you have problems you are concerned with, DoS (specifically, the dean herself) is always available to help figure things out. I had a couple of things in the gray area of what to disclose on my character and fitness application for the bar and scheduled an appointment once with her. During the meeting, she made calls right on the spot to help answer the questions. The main thing to realize is DoS isn't going to hold your hand through the process, especially with a school as large as HLS. They will send out a few emails from time to time at the end of 2L/throughout 3L to remind you of the need to meet certain deadlines, but it is otherwise left up to you. However, if you seek the help, they will help you.

luckystar84 wrote:How prevalent are gunners @ HLS? Is everyone who eventually wants a SCOTUS clerkship (not me--probably) or some other prestigious gig striving for those from day 1?

If so, how do you deal with them when they come at you with annoying questions? In UG I had one or two who were just insufferable. Not in class. they can talk for all they want in class. But their gunnerish attitude comes out in outside-the-classroom situations and it was too much. But I kind of just yes'ed them and played along because if they were in the same student organization or a tangentially close friend group, things can get awkward if I just adopt the "talk to the hand" approach.

A few pages ago some poster answering questions said that HLS is a big law school but in absolute terms pretty small. Anyone ever deal with this situation before? Amazingly, I don't really care about in-the-classroom gunning--you have to get your good participation bonus and all that. It's more when it spills over into extracurricular things and a gunner engages you one-on-one.


This really comes down to how you handle your outside-the-classroom social life more than anything else. If you don't want to be around the people who are always talking about the law (and there will be plenty of them), then find another group to hang out with. I think one of the best things about HLS' size is that there are a ton of social opportunities. Find the right group for you. Note, though, that gunners in the classroom typically isn't a "participation grade" thing. Most classes do not have such a thing (though a few do). If that were the case, gunnerism would be more tolerable. Instead, it's the people who always have something to say despite it not being of any benefit to them or the class (and that will be annoying if it happens).

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:14 pm

ph14 wrote: You don't need any "affidavits." You just need to list 5 references. .


But...
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/courts/ad1/Committees&Programs/CFC/index.shtml wrote:A complete application consists of the application questionnaire, all required accompanying forms and supporting documentation, including two Affidavits of Good Moral Character, and Legal Employment Affidavits from every law-related position you have held, including paid or unpaid internships, summer associate positions, volunteer work in law school clinics or elsewhere. T


Is that not an affadavit? Genuine question, I'm trying to figure this out.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby patogordo » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:17 pm

holy shit that is awful

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ph14
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ph14 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:19 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
ph14 wrote: You don't need any "affidavits." Yo4u just need to list 5 references. .


But...
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/courts/ad1/Committees&Programs/CFC/index.shtml wrote:A complete application consists of the application questionnaire, all required accompanying forms and supporting documentation, including two Affidavits of Good Moral Character, and Legal Employment Affidavits from every law-related position you have held, including paid or unpaid internships, summer associate positions, volunteer work in law school clinics or elsewhere. T


Is that not an affadavit? Genuine question, I'm trying to figure this out.


Guess it varies state by state.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:20 pm

ph14 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
ph14 wrote: You don't need any "affidavits." Yo4u just need to list 5 references. .


But...
http://www.courts.state.ny.us/courts/ad1/Committees&Programs/CFC/index.shtml wrote:A complete application consists of the application questionnaire, all required accompanying forms and supporting documentation, including two Affidavits of Good Moral Character, and Legal Employment Affidavits from every law-related position you have held, including paid or unpaid internships, summer associate positions, volunteer work in law school clinics or elsewhere. T


Is that not an affadavit? Genuine question, I'm trying to figure this out.


Guess it varies state by state.


In case anyone missed the link, that's New York, which will apply to most of you.

roranoa
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby roranoa » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:21 pm

How old is one of your "older" classmates? Does he get along well?

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby patogordo » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:31 pm

roranoa wrote:How old is one of your "older" classmates? Does he get along well?

I'm 30 and very ornery

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby roranoa » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:56 pm

patogordo wrote:
roranoa wrote:How old is one of your "older" classmates? Does he get along well?

I'm 30 and very ornery

I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:01 pm

patogordo wrote:
roranoa wrote:How old is one of your "older" classmates? Does he get along well?

I'm 30 and very ornery


Yeah, eff this guy.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby roranoa » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:38 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
patogordo wrote:
roranoa wrote:How old is one of your "older" classmates? Does he get along well?

I'm 30 and very ornery


Yeah, eff this guy.

Um, I'm not very accustomed to American sarcasm. Can anyone help me out with this question?

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:42 pm

At least one of the guys in my section was in his, er, probably late 30s. As far as I could tell, his age made little to no difference. He occasionally told his friends stories about his pre-law school life, and he probably discussed it a bit when interviewing with firms, but otherwise it never came up.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby ph14 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:46 pm

As long as your professor isn't calling on you to share your personal experience with FDR's New Deal, you'll be fine.

delusional
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby delusional » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:57 pm

roranoa wrote:How old is one of your "older" classmates? Does he get along well?
I'm old but my shortcomings in getting along are not a function of my age.




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