Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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t-14orbust
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby t-14orbust » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:31 pm

If I were to submit a seat deposit, does that mean I cannot apply to any other schools? I know that you aren't required to withdraw apps from schools that have yet to make a decision, but are we precluded from applying to other schools?

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trojandave
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby trojandave » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:52 pm

t-14orbust wrote:If I were to submit a seat deposit, does that mean I cannot apply to any other schools? I know that you aren't required to withdraw apps from schools that have yet to make a decision, but are we precluded from applying to other schools?



I don't have an exact answer, but why not just apply now then submit the seat deposit in a few weeks?

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:33 pm

trojandave wrote:
t-14orbust wrote:If I were to submit a seat deposit, does that mean I cannot apply to any other schools? I know that you aren't required to withdraw apps from schools that have yet to make a decision, but are we precluded from applying to other schools?



I don't have an exact answer, but why not just apply now then submit the seat deposit in a few weeks?

I can't imagine you would be. Also why not just wait to give your seat deposit? Also why not just ask admissions? They don't bite and aren't going to rescind your offer.

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t-14orbust
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby t-14orbust » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:51 pm

wert3813 wrote:
trojandave wrote:
t-14orbust wrote:If I were to submit a seat deposit, does that mean I cannot apply to any other schools? I know that you aren't required to withdraw apps from schools that have yet to make a decision, but are we precluded from applying to other schools?



I don't have an exact answer, but why not just apply now then submit the seat deposit in a few weeks?

I can't imagine you would be. Also why not just wait to give your seat deposit? Also why not just ask admissions? They don't bite and aren't going to rescind your offer.


I'll give it a try

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DrStudMuffin » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:23 am

Really helpful thread guys - thanks for doing this. I've read through a lot of it in chunks, and apologies if this question has been addressed.

I'm wondering about Harvard's ability to place into secondary markets, as I've seen it said multiple places around here that Harvard opens up secondary markets that are otherwise next to impossible to crack (think Denver, Seattle, Austin, Portland). Do you think there is any validity to this?

Obviously markets like these are still very difficult given how small SA class sizes are, but if you could offer any insight/anecdotes on this it would be appreciated.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:32 am

My impression is that's true.

A good number of firms from Seattle interview at EIP (I think 7 in 2012), and a few from Austin (I think 3 in 2012). So you can definitely get recruited straight into those markets. (You probably also have to do resume collection and send your own applications, just to be safe.)

I've not asked OCS about secondary markets, but my understanding is that they're pretty good about knowing what to do to advise you, too. If you really want to go to Cleveland — two firms recruited at EIP in 2012, and I'm pretty sure I have a friend who's going there — they can tell you what to do. I briefly looked at going to Sacramento (more out of curiosity than anything else), and it was definitely possible (two firms at EIP in 2013, if I remember correctly).

Finally, my rule of thumb is that if you can think of any location or a law-related activity, there is at least one HLS grad there or doing that, and that HLS grad is probably happy to talk with you and hook you up with whatever opportunities are available. The alumni network from HLS is, as far as I can tell, completely unparalleled. There are plenty of alums in Oregon and Colorado — the alumni advising network lists half a dozen advisors in Portland and over a dozen in Denver, most in firms but a few in other things.

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:53 am

tomwatts wrote:My impression is that's true.

A good number of firms from Seattle interview at EIP (I think 7 in 2012), and a few from Austin (I think 3 in 2012). So you can definitely get recruited straight into those markets. (You probably also have to do resume collection and send your own applications, just to be safe.)

I've not asked OCS about secondary markets, but my understanding is that they're pretty good about knowing what to do to advise you, too. If you really want to go to Cleveland — two firms recruited at EIP in 2012, and I'm pretty sure I have a friend who's going there — they can tell you what to do. I briefly looked at going to Sacramento (more out of curiosity than anything else), and it was definitely possible (two firms at EIP in 2013, if I remember correctly).

Finally, my rule of thumb is that if you can think of any location or a law-related activity, there is at least one HLS grad there or doing that, and that HLS grad is probably happy to talk with you and hook you up with whatever opportunities are available. The alumni network from HLS is, as far as I can tell, completely unparalleled. There are plenty of alums in Oregon and Colorado — the alumni advising network lists half a dozen advisors in Portland and over a dozen in Denver, most in firms but a few in other things.


Agree with pretty much all of this. As someone who has done a fair amount of research on Denver I'll say this: Denver is a brutal market to crack. I know people who got offers from top tier DC firms who couldn't crack Denver with ties (the tie being "I grew up there"). I do think if you were 100% sure you wanted Denver and you had a 100% paid for (I'm talking books, room and board, no stips) scholarship from Boulder and your Harvard offer was no grant money you should consider Boulder. That's a ton of what ifs though and the nice part about here is you will almost certainly get A firm job which is far from guaranteed at Boulder. You can do a search and find a thread from a Denver associate who says that it's much easier for people with ties to do 2-3 in a major market then lateral to Denver.

TL;DR- Denver is hard from Harvard. But it's gonna be harder from anywhere else except Boulder or DU.

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wert3813
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby wert3813 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:21 pm

Okay 2Ls and 3Ls. With the first half of grades just around the corner my question is this:

What firms can you not get with 6 Hs? (Assume non-diversity and non-IP.) Just W&C? What about 5? It seems Susman, W&C, Covington, Irell, and Watchell are the ones that come up as "very" prestigious in the OCI thread?

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Doorkeeper » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:25 pm

wert3813 wrote:Okay 2Ls and 3Ls. With the first half of grades just around the corner my question is this:

What firms can you not get with 6 Hs? (Assume non-diversity and non-IP.) Just W&C? What about 5? It seems Susman, W&C, Covington, Irell, and Watchell are the ones that come up as "very" prestigious in the OCI thread?

W&C and Wachtell.

6 is enough to be competitive for Covington DC. idk Susman and Irell.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby justinp » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:30 pm

DrStudMuffin wrote:Really helpful thread guys - thanks for doing this. I've read through a lot of it in chunks, and apologies if this question has been addressed.

I'm wondering about Harvard's ability to place into secondary markets, as I've seen it said multiple places around here that Harvard opens up secondary markets that are otherwise next to impossible to crack (think Denver, Seattle, Austin, Portland). Do you think there is any validity to this?

Obviously markets like these are still very difficult given how small SA class sizes are, but if you could offer any insight/anecdotes on this it would be appreciated.


Literally unparalleled.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby bigbirdfly » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:32 pm

wert3813 wrote:Okay 2Ls and 3Ls. With the first half of grades just around the corner my question is this:

What firms can you not get with 6 Hs? (Assume non-diversity and non-IP.) Just W&C? What about 5? It seems Susman, W&C, Covington, Irell, and Watchell are the ones that come up as "very" prestigious in the OCI thread?


I believe 6 H's is at or above all firms' cutoffs. From what I've heard this year, the most selective firms were Wachtell/S&C/Cravath in NYC, W&C/WilmerHale/Covington in DC, and some small boutiques such as Susman, Irell, Munger outside of NYC and DC. The highest cutoffs seem to be at Wachtell, S&C, W&C, and WilmerHale DC (all seems to be around 5-6 H's). Cravath NYC and Covington DC seems to have cutoffs of 4 H's (though you need a higher grade to be considered competitive). I haven't heard much about Susman and Irell.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:20 pm

justinp wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:Really helpful thread guys - thanks for doing this. I've read through a lot of it in chunks, and apologies if this question has been addressed.

I'm wondering about Harvard's ability to place into secondary markets, as I've seen it said multiple places around here that Harvard opens up secondary markets that are otherwise next to impossible to crack (think Denver, Seattle, Austin, Portland). Do you think there is any validity to this?

Obviously markets like these are still very difficult given how small SA class sizes are, but if you could offer any insight/anecdotes on this it would be appreciated.


Literally unparalleled.


With the big caveat being it doesn't do as well as the top local school in the area. You have a better shot at Seattle if you're top of your class at UW than from Harvard. The catch, of course, is that if you don't do well at UW, you don't really have a good shot at any other market, either, whereas at Harvard if you strike out in Seattle, you can just go to NYC. I know people with significant ties to secondary markets from Harvard who couldn't make it back there, despite placing into very strong firms in primary markets. Keep in mind, too, that top firms in those areas tend to be divided in their opinions towards who they want to hire--some on the hiring committee really prefer someone who did well at a local school (and can even be hostile to Harvard, etc. students), while others really want someone from a top school. I've had people tell me this about their own firms, including people who were on hiring committees at their firms. You might face that same divide in the attitudes of the people you work with and it'll be up to you to decide if you want to deal with that.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby justinp » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:36 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
justinp wrote:
DrStudMuffin wrote:Really helpful thread guys - thanks for doing this. I've read through a lot of it in chunks, and apologies if this question has been addressed.

I'm wondering about Harvard's ability to place into secondary markets, as I've seen it said multiple places around here that Harvard opens up secondary markets that are otherwise next to impossible to crack (think Denver, Seattle, Austin, Portland). Do you think there is any validity to this?

Obviously markets like these are still very difficult given how small SA class sizes are, but if you could offer any insight/anecdotes on this it would be appreciated.


Literally unparalleled.


With the big caveat being it doesn't do as well as the top local school in the area. You have a better shot at Seattle if you're top of your class at UW than from Harvard. The catch, of course, is that if you don't do well at UW, you don't really have a good shot at any other market, either, whereas at Harvard if you strike out in Seattle, you can just go to NYC. I know people with significant ties to secondary markets from Harvard who couldn't make it back there, despite placing into very strong firms in primary markets. Keep in mind, too, that top firms in those areas tend to be divided in their opinions towards who they want to hire--some on the hiring committee really prefer someone who did well at a local school (and can even be hostile to Harvard, etc. students), while others really want someone from a top school. I've had people tell me this about their own firms, including people who were on hiring committees at their firms. You might face that same divide in the attitudes of the people you work with and it'll be up to you to decide if you want to deal with that.


Pacific NW seems like a very tough nut to crack for sure. I think your characterization is right-- doing OK at HLS is probably not equivalent to tippity-top of the local school for most secondaries, but it's still a better life decision than "how hard can it be to be top 2%?"

That said, there are some secondary markets that come close to preferring HLS folks with ties to the local school. My understanding is that top 10% at UT has trouble staying in Austin post-grad, while at least one of the Big 7 has a summer class composed exclusively of HLS students.

All of which is to say that there are lots of variables flying around, but if you think you want to work in a secondary market you should on balance go to HLS over pretty much any other law school in the country.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:47 pm

I definitely think HLS is the right choice. Going to a local school is way riskier; if you don't snag those firms, you probably won't get them elsewhere either. I don't think it's worth the slightly better odds of getting that particular market to sacrifice the much better odds at HLS of getting *any* market. It's just best that people not walk into HLS thinking they've got these insular secondary markets on lock, and to keep in mind that they *may* have to go to New York first.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby justinp » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:08 pm

acrossthelake wrote:I definitely think HLS is the right choice. Going to a local school is way riskier; if you don't snag those firms, you probably won't get them elsewhere either. I don't think it's worth the slightly better odds of getting that particular market to sacrifice the much better odds at HLS of getting *any* market. It's just best that people not walk into HLS thinking they've got these insular secondary markets on lock, and to keep in mind that they *may* have to go to New York first.


And so we find ourselves in heated agreement :)

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby HermioneG. » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:50 pm

Hey everyone - Has anyone here ever done a Chayes Fellowship? I'm wondering what the interview process is like.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:52 pm

justinp wrote:
And so we find ourselves in heated agreement :)


How dare you agree with me! :D

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby sasquatchsam » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:49 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
justinp wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I definitely think HLS is the right choice. Going to a local school is way riskier; if you don't snag those firms, you probably won't get them elsewhere either. I don't think it's worth the slightly better odds of getting that particular market to sacrifice the much better odds at HLS of getting *any* market. It's just best that people not walk into HLS thinking they've got these insular secondary markets on lock, and to keep in mind that they *may* have to go to New York first.


And so we find ourselves in heated agreement :)


How dare you agree with me! :D


As someone who is only interested in practicing in one of these insular markets, how can I increase my chances of becoming employed upon graduation? Is there really a lot of competition from local schools for jobs at regional biglaw offices?

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:00 am

sasquatchsam wrote:
As someone who is only interested in practicing in one of these insular markets, how can I increase my chances of becoming employed upon graduation? Is there really a lot of competition from local schools for jobs at regional biglaw offices?


To your first question, work there your 1L summer. Take the time to network there, too. Make contacts at the firm. Show you're really truly genuinely interested.

To your second question, absolutely.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby sasquatchsam » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:36 am

Do you think it is necessary to work at a firm during 1L summer or does it suffice to just work in the geographic area? I grew up here, went to undergrad here, and have been working for three years here at a law office. Does that change the equation at all? I really appreciate your (and anyone else's) advice. This market is really small...think Billings, Salt Lake, or Boise and I have made a few connections but not too many in the firms I want to work at. Would it be inappropriate to contact an alumnus and see if they are willing to have coffee or at least give me more pointed advice on the market?

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:41 am

sasquatchsam wrote:Would it be inappropriate to contact an alumnus and see if they are willing to have coffee or at least give me more pointed advice on the market?

It's not inappropriate. Check the alumni advising database first to see if there's anyone who's volunteered to talk to people like you, because if so, they tend to appreciate being contacted, and if not, you can go to other random alums next.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby DrStudMuffin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:51 am

Thanks for the responses guys!

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby hlsperson1111 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:47 pm

wert3813 wrote:Okay 2Ls and 3Ls. With the first half of grades just around the corner my question is this:

What firms can you not get with 6 Hs? (Assume non-diversity and non-IP.) Just W&C? What about 5? It seems Susman, W&C, Covington, Irell, and Watchell are the ones that come up as "very" prestigious in the OCI thread?


W&C, elite lit boutiques like Keker/Susman/Kellogg Huber, MTO (you may be fine if you're on HLR), maybe Wachtell, maybe the DC office of some firms (e.g. I think you would have a very rough time getting Jenner or Wilmer DC with 6 H's). Covington DC, Irell, Boies, the V5, and virtually everywhere else are in play with 6 H's.

Speaking from personal experience, 6 H's is also not a golden ticket to whatever firm you want - I had 6 H's and got only 2 offers from the 25 firms I did screeners with at EIP (didn't bid NYC though, and ultimately loved the firm I ended up choosing). Interviewing and past experience matter a great deal, perhaps more than grades.

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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Mista Bojangles » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:52 am

hlsperson1111 wrote:
wert3813 wrote:Okay 2Ls and 3Ls. With the first half of grades just around the corner my question is this:

What firms can you not get with 6 Hs? (Assume non-diversity and non-IP.) Just W&C? What about 5? It seems Susman, W&C, Covington, Irell, and Watchell are the ones that come up as "very" prestigious in the OCI thread?


W&C, elite lit boutiques like Keker/Susman/Kellogg Huber, MTO (you may be fine if you're on HLR), maybe Wachtell, maybe the DC office of some firms (e.g. I think you would have a very rough time getting Jenner or Wilmer DC with 6 H's). Covington DC, Irell, Boies, the V5, and virtually everywhere else are in play with 6 H's.

Speaking from personal experience, 6 H's is also not a golden ticket to whatever firm you want - I had 6 H's and got only 2 offers from the 25 firms I did screeners with at EIP (didn't bid NYC though, and ultimately loved the firm I ended up choosing). Interviewing and past experience matter a great deal, perhaps more than grades.


Second most of this based on my and friends' EIP experience this past fall, except for the part on Jenner and Wilmer DC. Those two are less selective than Covington DC (I agree that Covington DC is in play with 6 Hs, but the other two definitely are in play with 6 as well). From what I saw, W&C is the only DC firm for which stellar grades (like 8+ Hs) are necessary

ETA: I didn't apply to DC, but since everyone and their mom at HLS has a raging boner for DC, it's hard to go through EIP and not hear about it

hlsperson1111
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby hlsperson1111 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:10 pm

I don't think you are correct on the Covington v. Jenner/Wilmer/Etc. question (just based on clerkships and latin honors from the people who have worked there in CO 2012 and 2013), but I think we can all agree that the top DC firms are very selective and that W&C is more selective than the rest of them.




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