Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
gottago
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Postby gottago » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:22 pm

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tachikara
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tachikara » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:44 pm

gottago wrote:And how do you pressure career services into giving you an interview? I'd expect a diplomatic "we do things by lottery to ensure fairness and to maximize employment opportunities for all our students" response.

If someone (not saying I'd be in this position ever) were to get 3-4H's (with maybe 1DS), is SIP still not something to rely on?

Thanks


It's just by lottery. I think what acrossthelake means is that you can always email firms directly asking for an interview (after Dec 1, or whenever the cutoff is). I definitely know people who were in that range grade-wise, and did not get anything through SIP. It really cannot be relied upon; there's just so few firms at SIP, and so few 1L SA spots in general.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:49 pm

gottago wrote:
This may be a function of the crowd you hang with, but it seems like Asians do slightly better than White students in 1L employment? is that because they're considered diverse and 1L hiring places greater emphasis on diversity?

And can you give me an idea of the numbers I'm up against. Is it something like 5 firms come, 20 interview slots each, 500 people do SIP so only 1/5 gets even 1 interview with a firm @ SIP?

And how do you pressure career services into giving you an interview? I'd expect a diplomatic "we do things by lottery to ensure fairness and to maximize employment opportunities for all our students" response.

If someone (not saying I'd be in this position ever) were to get 3-4H's (with maybe 1DS), is SIP still not something to rely on?

Thanks


? My crowd is not racially determined. Though I guess you mean if I was in an affinity group.

There are many flat out diversity-only 1L positions, where "non-diverse" means straight white (male). General 1L positions do exist, but they're more rare and you're more likely to find those through random mass-mail of your home market.

I'm saying like maybe 7 firms come(I might be off, but at worst I'm off by a handful), 20 slots each. I have no idea how many people do SIP, a lot I assume. Mind you, some govt. and public interest does SIP too. I did SIP and only got one interview from the lottery. You don't beg career services. You beg the employer. For example, one of the firms had a reception the night before. I went to the reception, said I really wanted to interview with them, but didn't get a spot. They fit me in (and gave me a callback, so they do take those interviews seriously). You'll want to do this at EIP as well for firms you don't get interviews with, but wanted.

No, still not something to rely on. It's too small. No matter what your grades, you really can't rely on like 0-3 possible screener interviews.


ETA: With those kinds of grades, you can definitely rely on EIP to get a firm job for 2L though.

gottago
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Postby gottago » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:00 pm

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:08 pm

gottago wrote: and if your home market is Chi/DC/LA/NYC, good luck?

Having ties to Chi, DC, and LA greatly increase your chances of getting hired there. Really, it's okay to not get a 1LSA.

gottago wrote: not sure if you're diverse by the nondiverse=straight white male standard, but you couldn't get something out of diversity 1LSAs?
I know one of last year's WLRK 1LSAs (2012). She or he was asian and said there was one other asian in the class of 5 1LSAs. On the other hand other diversity programs seem restricted to AA/NA/Hispanic (like SEO). You sure LGBT/Asian/Female qualify as diverse for 1LSAs?

Depends entirely on the program. I know in my home market for one program, the previous year before mine the 1L diversity SA was a white male LGBTQ. Less sure about white straight female. I wouldn't be surprised if that counted for some programs, but I can't recall any in particular. I'm not talking about what I did 1L summer. I've revealed enough personal information as is. Asian definitely qualifies as diverse for 1LSAs. Again, in my home market, the previous year for one of the programs, had been an Asian female. These are programs where you have to write essays about being diverse.
gottago wrote:I didn't have affinity groups in mind when I asked the question (although I didn't have the idea that your circle is racially determined either), but now that you mention them, how easy or hard is it to get interviews with firms through the BLSA/La Allianza/APALSA job fairs?


I haven't heard of anyone managing to do this, but I am not an active member in any of those organizations. I think it's supposed to be a bit more about networking at that point than getting you a 1LSA.

gottago wrote:

I know all three groups say their job fairs are open to the entire campus but have you heard whether the 3 groups offer different rates of success in obtaining interviews/jobs through their fairs?

I haven't looked into it too deeply but it seems like those 3 affinity groups host job fairs at different times of the year. I think one of those is in Jan or Feb. If so, isn't that too late for most firm jobs?


It's not about 1L SAs. It's about 2L SAs. These job fairs are about building contacts and face time with these firms as a 1L so you have some traction when you are trying to get a 2L SA job. If you can parlay it into a 1L job, that's great, but that's not what most people are going to get out of it.

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Postby gottago » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:42 am

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pillowcase33
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby pillowcase33 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:54 pm

Sorry to go off-topic, could someone explain how in-class and take-home exams work:

1. What can you bring to your in-class exams? Can you look at your notes, casebooks, whatever you had to study for the class? Same question for take-home exams.
2. I heard that all testing is done with Exam 4. When do we have to have it installed onto your computers, how do we do this, and are there training sessions available for the program? Taking tests on computers is just not my thing, but I'll have to adapt.
3. Is it possible to access the Internet during the exams?

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Searchparty
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Searchparty » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:46 pm

pillowcase33 wrote:Sorry to go off-topic, could someone explain how in-class and take-home exams work:

1. What can you bring to your in-class exams? Can you look at your notes, casebooks, whatever you had to study for the class? Same question for take-home exams.
2. I heard that all testing is done with Exam 4. When do we have to have it installed onto your computers, how do we do this, and are there training sessions available for the program? Taking tests on computers is just not my thing, but I'll have to adapt.
3. Is it possible to access the Internet during the exams?


http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/re ... modes.html

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:55 pm

gottago wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:
It's not about 1L SAs. It's about 2L SAs. These job fairs are about building contacts and face time with these firms as a 1L so you have some traction when you are trying to get a 2L SA job. If you can parlay it into a 1L job, that's great, but that's not what most people are going to get out of it.


If as a UG you don't have finance/consulting experience (the two fields I think where networking is crucial), and hence have no idea how networking actually works, can you break down how one should conduct oneself @ these job fairs?

For example, are you supposed to say, as you alluded to earlier, "I didn't get an interview with you through lottery but I really want to interview with you" clearly and explicitly, or do you ask them for an "informational" interview to learn more about the firm?

And do you chitchat about random things, or do you ask questions about their firm, while subtly dropping your qualities along the way? e.g., "I did [impressive project A] in Prof. B's Corps class; how important is [this issue I'm really knowledgeable about] to your practice?"


Separately, how would law students advise 0Ls who are doing internships at nonprofit legal organizations to parlay these connections into an interview for either 1LSA or 2LSA?
For example, if you intern at a place like community legal services and they partner with a local firm whose reception you've attended, how would you use that experience 2 years later? Send them an email saying "I met you @ this reception, do you have time to sit down for coffee?" And then when you're there, tell them "oh by the way, I've applied to your firm/similar firms in your area, do you have any advice on how to handle the interview if I get one?"

Lastly, as a minor point, if you attended UG in a secondary market, is that enough of a tie for 1LSAs and 2LSAs? San Diego/Ohio/Florida/VA/Philly/Seattle etc.


The answer to all of your questions is do well in law school and then you'll find a job. You're stressing me out and I'm a 3L. Relax everything is ok. You should be concentrating on law school and not whether during EIP if your undergrad will matter. Oh and your facts are a little off. I'm a former SEO and you can be white and be in SEO there were a couple in my class. You just have to be diverse. For instance one of the white guys was greek-orthodox or something and that was his in.

pillowcase33
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby pillowcase33 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:50 pm

Searchparty wrote:
pillowcase33 wrote:Sorry to go off-topic, could someone explain how in-class and take-home exams work:

1. What can you bring to your in-class exams? Can you look at your notes, casebooks, whatever you had to study for the class? Same question for take-home exams.
2. I heard that all testing is done with Exam 4. When do we have to have it installed onto your computers, how do we do this, and are there training sessions available for the program? Taking tests on computers is just not my thing, but I'll have to adapt.
3. Is it possible to access the Internet during the exams?


http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/re ... modes.html


Thanks. If someone can help out with questions 1 and 2, I would be grateful.
Also, are things saved on your desktop = access to the hard drive?

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Yukos
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Yukos » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:41 pm

Image

We need a better meme for this though.

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:57 pm

pillowcase33 wrote:
Searchparty wrote:
pillowcase33 wrote:Sorry to go off-topic, could someone explain how in-class and take-home exams work:

1. What can you bring to your in-class exams? Can you look at your notes, casebooks, whatever you had to study for the class? Same question for take-home exams.
2. I heard that all testing is done with Exam 4. When do we have to have it installed onto your computers, how do we do this, and are there training sessions available for the program? Taking tests on computers is just not my thing, but I'll have to adapt.
3. Is it possible to access the Internet during the exams?


http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/re ... modes.html


Thanks. If someone can help out with questions 1 and 2, I would be grateful.
Also, are things saved on your desktop = access to the hard drive?

I don't mean to feed the hysteria, but...

1. Usually the answer is anything and everything, but it varies by prof. For take-home exams, some exams are open-Internet and some are not, but that's by the honor system (since they have no way to police it). For in-class exams, the central difference is whether you can access your hard drive or not during the exam, but most profs will let you have anything you want on the desk. The reality is that you probably won't ever use it during the exam, though, except your outlines that you print and bring.

2. If you're computer savvy enough to make posts on TLS, you're computer savvy enough to use Exam4, once you get it up and running. Installing it can be easy or somewhat hard, but you don't really have to do that until December, so don't think about it until then. Remember that it's a stripped-down word processor, and you're doing an essay exam on it. If you can use Word, you're more than fine on this software.

And yes, anything that's not in Exam4 = access to the hard drive.

gottago
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby gottago » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:21 pm

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:51 pm

gottago wrote:what? exams are essentially open book? Is HLS unique in this respect? Is it just a matter of obtaining the best outline? I'm having a hard time analogizing to UG but for any 3 hr UG exam (and the UG I went to wasn't a joke or anything), I can probably study for 2-3 hrs the night before and ace it if it were open book. If it's open book and everyone has roughly the same outline, what determines who does better?

on that note, do upperclassmen share outlines? Like I know one of the affinity groups says that one of the benefits of joining is that you get outilines, and I remember seeing an NYU database of outlines somewhere. Is using a proven one better than making your own?


It's not as easy as read an outline. You normally have limited time and many test are issue spotters with no singular right answer. Good luck with getting an outline and studying for 2-3 hrs and not LP'ing.

justinp
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby justinp » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:29 pm

gottago wrote:what? exams are essentially open book? Is HLS unique in this respect? Is it just a matter of obtaining the best outline? I'm having a hard time analogizing to UG but for any 3 hr UG exam (and the UG I went to wasn't a joke or anything), I can probably study for 2-3 hrs the night before and ace it if it were open book. If it's open book and everyone has roughly the same outline, what determines who does better?

on that note, do upperclassmen share outlines? Like I know one of the affinity groups says that one of the benefits of joining is that you get outilines, and I remember seeing an NYU database of outlines somewhere. Is using a proven one better than making your own?


what is a curve

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:12 am

gottago wrote:on that note, do upperclassmen share outlines? Like I know one of the affinity groups says that one of the benefits of joining is that you get outilines, and I remember seeing an NYU database of outlines somewhere. Is using a proven one better than making your own?

Yes on the former question. Somewhat irritatingly, many of the groups on campus have their own outline banks. This means you have to jump through hoops to get access to them. But 2Ls and 3Ls that you know may also pass down outlines free of hurdles. (Such as, you know, my offer to do so for the classes that I had back a couple of pages ago.)

Maybe on the latter question. There is no such thing as a "proven" outline, just one that someone else used well on a particular exam. The outline may still suck. The outline wasn't what was graded. You don't really know. But a lot of people use inherited outlines and refine them.

gottago
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby gottago » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:48 am

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MarBar
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby MarBar » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:17 am

People, outlines are not some kind of golden ticket to a world of Hs. A really great outline for a class you're not planning on studying too hard for can help spare you from an LP, but without a whole lot of studying and understanding and synthesizing on your own, it probably won't do much good beyond that. A "good" vs. a "bad" one will be determined only by whether the content is organized and summarized in a way that makes sense to you.

Take 90% of the time you spend searching for and thinking about getting other people's outlines and replace it with time spent taking practice exams and figuring out how your professor actually thinks. I honestly think model answers from past years do you a world more good than even the "best" outline.

tomwatts
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby tomwatts » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:27 am

gottago wrote:what hoops do groups make you jump through to get access to the outline bank? for one or 2 groups I've looked up, it looks as simple as being a due-paying member

how do you know which outlines are better than which just by reading them? how comprehensive, clear, concise they are?

For the former, sometimes they make you show up to their events and sign in or something.

For the latter, you don't. A typical way that people use passed-down outlines is that they do the reading themselves, figure out what they think is going on, go to the outline, edit it with whatever additional comments they have, go to class, take notes, add whatever's important from those notes into the outline, read a supplement, add whatever's necessary from the supplement into the outline, and then trim down to keep the outline from getting bloated. You do that through the whole semester, and you should have a pretty solid outline by the end.

But I've never used a passed-down outline. I always write my own. I had enough visiting profs and profs for whom there weren't good outlines available that it was never worth it for me to try to edit someone else's outline.

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Luchando
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby Luchando » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:47 am

gottago wrote: ... I can probably study for 2-3 hrs the night before and ace it if it were open book. If it's open book and everyone has roughly the same outline, what determines who does better?


lol...

Wormfather wrote:How many 1Ls miss orientation altogether because they decided to get ahead on the reading?


LOL

lealden
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby lealden » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:51 pm

I'm trying to decide whether to buy new or some used books. Will using books with someone else's hi-lighting and notes be a problem? If I never hi-lighted/annotated in the past, am I likely to start in law school? Thanks!

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acrossthelake
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:03 pm

To all these questions about study habits (other outlines vs. making your own, used vs. new):

Law is not some magical material that you somehow need a magic combination of methods to absorb. You will learn it in much the same way you have acquired other sets of knowledge.

Was undergrad hard for you? If so, take whatever you did in undergrad, and kick that up a notch.

Was undergrad easy for you? You should probably consider changing your study habits then. Go for more effort over less.

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thelawschoolproject
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby thelawschoolproject » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:51 pm

MarBar wrote:
Take 90% of the time you spend searching for and thinking about getting other people's outlines and replace it with time spent taking practice exams and figuring out how your professor actually thinks. I honestly think model answers from past years do you a world more good than even the "best" outline.



I just want to echo this. Practice exams are far more valuable than outlines.

joshuachamberlain
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby joshuachamberlain » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:13 pm

Is it really as difficult as I've heard to cross-register at other Harvard schools?

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pupshaw
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Re: Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions

Postby pupshaw » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:12 pm

joshuachamberlain wrote:Is it really as difficult as I've heard to cross-register at other Harvard schools?


It's nothing compared to the defense of Little Round Top.




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