Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[despina]

IIRC, clinic grades are excluded from latin honors calculations.

As far as I can tell clinic grades do count toward latin honors, except maybe independent clinical placements which are mandatory Pass/Fail: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... ng-policy/

8. The following are not included in Latin honors calculations for any student:

a) Credit/Fail courses.
b) Cross-registration courses.
c) Courses taken outside of Harvard Law School through a Law School joint, concurrent or coordinated degree program.
d) Grades earned in law school prior to matriculation to Harvard Law School.
e) "Withdrew after Deadline" (WD) notations.

[tomwatts]

bumping my thread..any idea on how easy grades are in clinics?

I believe it is easier to get an H in a clinic. IIRC, clinic grades are excluded from latin honors calculations.

My first reaction was wtf, that's not on the grading policy page. But it is Handbook of Academic Policies (LinkRemoved), as it turns out.

8. The following are not included in Latin honors calculations for any student:
a) Credit/Fail courses, including study abroad courses.
b) Cross-registration courses.
c) Clinical work or written work done in excess of the maximum credit limits.
d) Courses taken outside of Harvard Law School through a Law School joint or coordinated degree program.
e) Courses taken through the Berkeley Exchange Program or the Program for Third-Year Visits.
f) Grades earned in law school prior to matriculation to Harvard Law School.
g) "Withdrew after Deadline" (WD) notations.

That apparently means in excess of 12 credits each (so, if you do 14 clinical credits, the last 2 don't count toward Latin honors — nor do they count toward the 52 credits to graduate).

Also, independent clinicals, per despina's post above, because they're Credit/Fail.

[BelugaWhale]

bumping my thread..any idea on how easy grades are in clinics?

I believe it is easier to get an H in a clinic. IIRC, clinic grades are excluded from latin honors calculations.

My first reaction was wtf, that's not on the grading policy page. But it is Handbook of Academic Policies (LinkRemoved), as it turns out.

8. The following are not included in Latin honors calculations for any student:
a) Credit/Fail courses, including study abroad courses.
b) Cross-registration courses.
c) Clinical work or written work done in excess of the maximum credit limits.
d) Courses taken outside of Harvard Law School through a Law School joint or coordinated degree program.
e) Courses taken through the Berkeley Exchange Program or the Program for Third-Year Visits.
f) Grades earned in law school prior to matriculation to Harvard Law School.
g) "Withdrew after Deadline" (WD) notations.

That apparently means in excess of 12 credits each (so, if you do 14 clinical credits, the last 2 don't count toward Latin honors — nor do they count toward the 52 credits to graduate).

Also, independent clinicals, per despina's post above, because they're Credit/Fail.

2 questions

1) what counts as in excess? Like if I take a 2 hr clinical and 14 hrs total...is the 2 hr clinical considered over the limit?

2) Who/what is the best legal profession course/professor to take? (as in easiest to coast through with good grade)

[ph14]

bumping my thread..any idea on how easy grades are in clinics?

I believe it is easier to get an H in a clinic. IIRC, clinic grades are excluded from latin honors calculations.

My first reaction was wtf, that's not on the grading policy page. But it is Handbook of Academic Policies (LinkRemoved), as it turns out.

8. The following are not included in Latin honors calculations for any student:
a) Credit/Fail courses, including study abroad courses.
b) Cross-registration courses.
c) Clinical work or written work done in excess of the maximum credit limits.
d) Courses taken outside of Harvard Law School through a Law School joint or coordinated degree program.
e) Courses taken through the Berkeley Exchange Program or the Program for Third-Year Visits.
f) Grades earned in law school prior to matriculation to Harvard Law School.
g) "Withdrew after Deadline" (WD) notations.

That apparently means in excess of 12 credits each (so, if you do 14 clinical credits, the last 2 don't count toward Latin honors — nor do they count toward the 52 credits to graduate).

Also, independent clinicals, per despina's post above, because they're Credit/Fail.

Hmm, looks like I misremembered then. Thanks for clearing that up.

[despina]

1) what counts as in excess? Like if I take a 2 hr clinical and 14 hrs total...is the 2 hr clinical considered over the limit?

I think "in excess" refers to "in excess of 12 total clinic hours during your entire JD" (not "in excess of 12 total credits in a single semester.") So if you take 14 total hours in a single semester including 2 clinic hours, that's fine. If you've already taken a total of 12 clinical hours in previous semesters and want to take a few more in your final semester, perhaps you can, but you won't get to count those hours toward graduation or your GPA.

[BelugaWhale]

Cool, thanks for clearing it up guys. If anybody has thoughts on legal profession profs/classes that would be great too

[malleus discentium]

This thread has been super helpful, I appreciate everyone's answers
My mind is blown that Gropius isn't air-conditioned. How awful does this make living there? Also, can anyone share some thoughts on Harvard University Health Services? I would appreciate general comments, but I am especially hoping to hear from anyone who needs to see, say, a kidney specialist on a consistent basis. PMs are fine, of course.

[tomwatts]

My mind is blown that Gropius isn't air-conditioned. How awful does this make living there?

It's really only relevant for a few weeks of school. If you have a fan in August/September, it's not that bad, though it's kind of bad in a warm year. If it's ever intolerable (which it generally isn't, and I'm a California-bred humidity wimp), just go to Wasserstein or Langdell. Take a mid-afternoon nap on the beanbag chairs or something. After the first few weeks of class, though, you won't need air conditioning.

But if I were doing a summer program at Harvard (say, June-August), I would not live in Gropius.

[rathgra]

My mind is blown that Gropius isn't air-conditioned. How awful does this make living there?

I have an absurdly low tolerance for humidity - it wasn't great, but I got through it. It really only is the first two weeks or so. The very first thing I did when I moved into my room was open the window, stick the fan in there, and turn it on full blast. I kept it running nonstop and it was livable.

[baloneydanza]

This thread has been super helpful, I appreciate everyone's answers
My mind is blown that Gropius isn't air-conditioned. How awful does this make living there? Also, can anyone share some thoughts on Harvard University Health Services? I would appreciate general comments, but I am especially hoping to hear from anyone who needs to see, say, a kidney specialist on a consistent basis. PMs are fine, of course.

I went to undergrad in the DC area and neither of my dorms had AC. The worst thing is that it's impossible to fully dry yourself after a shower. Otherwise it's not great but it's not terrible.

[sjgonzalez3]

How far would you consider too far to commute to HLS using walking/bus/T?

10 m/15m/20m/25m/30m.

Doing the dreaded apartment search and finding a lot of great places that are just outside of where I initially thought I would be renting. Very few in Harvard Square/Porter Square (and if so, they are all tiny/expensive).

Allston, Kendall Sq., and Parts of Somerville seem just on the outer limits.

What have you folks experiences/heard about living around that distance?

[ph14]

How far would you consider too far to commute to HLS using walking/bus/T?

10 m/15m/20m/25m/30m.

Doing the dreaded apartment search and finding a lot of great places that are just outside of where I initially thought I would be renting. Very few in Harvard Square/Porter Square (and if so, they are all tiny/expensive).

Allston, Kendall Sq., and Parts of Somerville seem just on the outer limits.

What have you folks experiences/heard about living around that distance?

A 15 minute walk isn't bad and I think a lot of students live in that radius. I might even go a little bit further than that, but I would probably stay within a 20 minute walk. 30 Minutes is too far and long for me at least, especially during the winter and J-term. I also prefer walking as I don't like being dependent on the buses plus I enjoy the walk. I have friends who take the bus or the T and live farther away and save more money, and that is their preference and they seem to be happy with that decision. So I guess think about whether you would prefer a bigger, nicer, or cheaper place that is a longer commute and might require public transportation versus a smaller, less nice, more expensive closer apartment.

[094320]

..

[blckwsl]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

[TripTrip]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

Not as many firms attend EIP from Chicago as from New York, but the ones that do are a lot easier, on average, to secure interviews with (Chi: 78.58% of bids got interviews, NY: 67.65% of bids got interviews) and a lot easier to get a job offer from based on those interviews. (Percentage of interviews which led to a job offer for Chicago was 26.29% versus 20.73% for New York. For comparison, SoCal is 13.63%.)

For 2010-2012, about half of all Chicago EIP interviews led to a call-back, and overall Chicago firms average about 100 offers per year at HLS EIP.

[blckwsl]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

Not as many firms attend EIP from Chicago as from New York, but the ones that do are a lot easier, on average, to secure interviews with and a lot easier to get a job offer based on those interviews. (Percentage of interviews which led to a job offer for Chicago was 26.29% versus 20.73% for New York. For comparison, SoCal is 13.63%.)

For 2010-2012, about half of all Chicago EIP interviews led to a call-back, and overall Chicago firms average about 100 offers per year at HLS EIP.

Thanks for the insight! So would it be ok to only bid on Chicago firms? Would I be pretty sure that I'd get an offer somewhere, assuming median grades and average interviewing skills? I'm not sure if anyone would know an exact answer, but just wanted to know how people felt about this. Would it be really stupid and risky to not bid New York at all when attending HLS?

Thanks a bunch!

[TripTrip]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

Not as many firms attend EIP from Chicago as from New York, but the ones that do are a lot easier, on average, to secure interviews with and a lot easier to get a job offer based on those interviews. (Percentage of interviews which led to a job offer for Chicago was 26.29% versus 20.73% for New York. For comparison, SoCal is 13.63%.)

For 2010-2012, about half of all Chicago EIP interviews led to a call-back, and overall Chicago firms average about 100 offers per year at HLS EIP.

Thanks for the insight! So would it be ok to only bid on Chicago firms? Would I be pretty sure that I'd get an offer somewhere, assuming median grades and average interviewing skills? I'm not sure if anyone would know an exact answer, but just wanted to know how people felt about this. Would it be really stupid and risky to not bid New York at all when attending HLS?

Thanks a bunch!

You won't need to make that decision: there aren't 35 firms at EIP from Chicago to bid on. Bid on the 15-20 Chicago firms you want and use the rest on NY firms you would be interested in.

[ph14]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

It's Harvard. It places well in every market (relatively speaking). Everyone will understand attending Harvard over a regional school.

[wert3813]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

It's Harvard. It places well in every market (relatively speaking). Everyone will understand attending Harvard over a regional school.

Struggle to believe you can't pretty easily get a job with Baker if you have ties to Ohio.

[blckwsl]

I was wondering how easy is it for someone at HLS to find a big law job in Chicago? Do many Chicago firms attend OCI?

I want big law, but not in New York. Would I need above median grades to be pretty sure that I'll have options not in NYC? (I don't really have ties anywhere but Chicago and Ohio).

Thanks everyone for answering questions!

It's Harvard. It places well in every market (relatively speaking). Everyone will understand attending Harvard over a regional school.

Struggle to believe you can't pretty easily get a job with Baker if you have ties to Ohio.

Thanks for the responses! I feel a lot better about choosing HLS now.

[dennycrane59]

2 questions:

1. Does an HLS degree provide an advantage and job security after getting that first job? For example, if I get a firm gig but I get pushed out in 5 years, will HLS still have a leg up or will I be pretty much the same as any other 5th year from a lowerT14?

Similarly, if I go to say Simpson Thatcher, and at year 5 I try to lateral to F500 inhouse, will an HLS degree help, or will I be viewed as any other STB 5th year?

2. Given its large size, have any of you felt that the administration is impersonal in helping you handle tricky situations? Not "academic advisement" like "what class do I take" but more like personal stuff.

2. Not going to get into details at all, but I was actually amazed at how much the administration was willing to bend over backwards to help me handle a difficult personal situation this last year. It wasn't just that they were willing to go out of their way to help me, it was that a very busy and very important member of the administration was willing to talk with me for almost two hours on a Wednesday at the end of the day, when I'm sure they just wanted to go home, to help me decide what I should do about the personal situation.

I was really really surprised at the time actually. Definitely made me realize that I made the right choice.

[Person1111]

NY is certainly the "safe" bet at HLS, but if you would rather work in the Midwest and have ties there, it's probably fine to have a bid list that is Chicago + your preferred secondary market. Maybe you should reconsider if you have really poor grades (0-1 H's, an LP and few H's, etc.), but if you have reasonable grades and ties I don't think you have to bid on NY.

(Just FYI, I really don't think Chicago is a very grades-sensitive market - I think they care more that you have ties and a narrative for why you want to be in Chicago).

[TripTrip]

Maybe you should reconsider if you have really poor grades (0-1 H's, an LP and few H's, etc.)

Based on the data I'm looking at, I think this might be the other way around. It looks like anyone with midwest ties and poor grades would fare better interviewing with Chicago firms than NY firms.

[TripTrip]

I suppose it would be helpful if I cited where I'm getting these statistics: http://hlsdope.org/eip

You have to verify that you're an HLS student to see the stats, but once you do you can filter by market and see the overall percentages of bids-->interviews and interviews-->offers, among a ton of other things.

[MyNameIsFlynn!]

once again, tyler vigen is killin' it.

thanks for the link trip