Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[lawlorbust]

as a very rough outline the below applies to the major market for grade selectivity, obviously the DC and SF offices of these firms are tougher (places like Jones Day and Hogan DC aren't easy) and it doesn't take into account personality (some firms like Cooley or Proskauer drill more for fit). People can (and during bid list season do) argue all day about minor gradations, e.g. sullivan is more selective than simpson, blah blah, but this is the gist.

Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

...

Lots of amazing and more selective firms aren't on this list. Also, being grade selective doesn't make a firm better. Lots of great firms dont care about grades at somewhere like HLS but they look for other qualities and shouldn't be dismissed.

Could you please quantify "selective", "somewhat selective" and "not selective" by the number of Hs? Thanks!

My take on it is, in terms of selectiveness as a floor,

Unselective = 1-3
Somewhat selective = 3-5
Selective = 6-8

(After factoring in "soft" Hs like work experience, ethnicity, etc. Others may disagree.)

[heythatslife]

as a very rough outline the below applies to the major market for grade selectivity, obviously the DC and SF offices of these firms are tougher (places like Jones Day and Hogan DC aren't easy) and it doesn't take into account personality (some firms like Cooley or Proskauer drill more for fit). People can (and during bid list season do) argue all day about minor gradations, e.g. sullivan is more selective than simpson, blah blah, but this is the gist.

Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

1. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz - selective
2. Cravath, Swaine & Moore - somewhat selective
3. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher - not selective
4. Sullivan & Cromwell - somewhat selective
5. Davis Polk & Wardwell - somewhat selective
6. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett - somewhat selective
7. Kirkland & Ellis - not selective
8. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton - somewhat selective
9. Weil, Gotshal & Manges - not selective
10. Latham & Watkins - not selective
11. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher - somewhat selective for LA/DC
12. Boies, Schiller & Flexner - selective
13. Covington & Burling - somewhat selective, esp DC
14. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison - somewhat selective
15. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan - doesn't really have a summer program
16. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP - not selective
17. Sidley Austin LLP - not selective
18. Williams & Connolly LLP - selective
19. Jones Day - not selective
20. White & Case LLP - not selective
21. WilmerHale - somewhat selective, esp DC
22. Morrison & Foerster LLP - not selective
23. Ropes & Gray LLP - not selective, but can be competitive in desirable locations
24. Paul Hastings LLP - not selective
25. Arnold & Porter LLP - somewhat selective, esp DC
26. O'Melveny & Myers LLP - not selective
27. Clifford Chance US LLP - not selective
28. Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP - selective
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP - not selective
30. Shearman & Sterling LLP - not selective
31. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP - not selective
32. Baker & McKenzie - not selective
33. Hogan Lovells US LLP - not selective
34. Mayer Brown LLP - not selective (except DC)
35. Goodwin Procter LLP - not selective
36. Proskauer Rose LLP - not grade selective, but tough
37. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP - not selective
38. Cooley LLP - not selective
39. Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP - not selective
40. Linklaters LLP (US) - not selective

Lots of amazing and more selective firms aren't on this list. Also, being grade selective doesn't make a firm better. Lots of great firms dont care about grades at somewhere like HLS but they look for other qualities and shouldn't be dismissed.

Could you please quantify "selective", "somewhat selective" and "not selective" by the number of Hs? Thanks!

My impression is that as a rule of thumb you need:
"Selective" = significantly more Hs than Ps (at least 6 or 7 Hs)
"Somewhat selective" = above median (4-6 Hs)
"Not selective" = you can still get at median or below (0-3 Hs)
with the understanding that 1) the precise level of grade selectivity does indeed vary within each designation, and 2) having good grades only gets you so far - I've seen people with good grades struggle during EIP and callbacks due to poor interviewing skills while others with lower grades but stronger interviewing skills breeze through and get the jobs they want with relative ease.

ETA: scooped

[ValeVale]

Now that BSA apps are coming up, what kind of grades do you need to be competitive? Apologies if it's been answered, I didn't see anything more concrete than "better than median and do well in LRW."

My understanding is that grades (even in LRW), while a factor, matter less than what your Climenko/BSA/interviewer say about you.

My Climenko fellow said being a BSA is one of the only jobs at Harvard where "being nice actually matters."

Is there a grade cutoff though? If you have around Median grades and a 1st semester LRW P, is it worth even applying for?

[polareagle]

Now that BSA apps are coming up, what kind of grades do you need to be competitive? Apologies if it's been answered, I didn't see anything more concrete than "better than median and do well in LRW."

My understanding is that grades (even in LRW), while a factor, matter less than what your Climenko/BSA/interviewer say about you.

My Climenko fellow said being a BSA is one of the only jobs at Harvard where "being nice actually matters."

Is there a grade cutoff though? If you have around Median grades and a 1st semester LRW P, is it worth even applying for?

I don't think anyone can give you a precise answer about cutoffs. But you have no way of knowing what your spring LRW grade will be (some people do much better writing briefs than memos). You also don't know what your regular spring grades will be. Both will weigh just as heavily in the selection process as the grades you've got now (and I don't believe that one P in LRW, by itself, is disqualifying). IF you're interested in being a BSA, why not apply?

[jbagelboy]

as a very rough outline the below applies to the major market for grade selectivity, obviously the DC and SF offices of these firms are tougher (places like Jones Day and Hogan DC aren't easy) and it doesn't take into account personality (some firms like Cooley or Proskauer drill more for fit). People can (and during bid list season do) argue all day about minor gradations, e.g. sullivan is more selective than simpson, blah blah, but this is the gist.

Let's make such information available! Below is a list of T40 firms by vault ranking for 2016. It would be very helpful if people could share thoughts about how selective/grade-sensitive these firms are. I am happy to compile new information provided to the list. My understanding is that grades don't matter after T30, but let me know if I missed any firms that are not on the list but worth mentioning. Any kind of input is highly appreciated!

1. Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz - selective
2. Cravath, Swaine & Moore - somewhat selective
3. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher - not selective
4. Sullivan & Cromwell - somewhat selective
5. Davis Polk & Wardwell - somewhat selective
6. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett - somewhat selective
7. Kirkland & Ellis - not selective
8. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton - somewhat selective
9. Weil, Gotshal & Manges - not selective
10. Latham & Watkins - not selective
11. Gibson Dunn & Crutcher - somewhat selective for LA/DC
12. Boies, Schiller & Flexner - selective
13. Covington & Burling - somewhat selective, esp DC
14. Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison - somewhat selective
15. Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan - doesn't really have a summer program
16. Debevoise & Plimpton LLP - not selective
17. Sidley Austin LLP - not selective
18. Williams & Connolly LLP - selective
19. Jones Day - not selective
20. White & Case LLP - not selective
21. WilmerHale - somewhat selective, esp DC
22. Morrison & Foerster LLP - not selective
23. Ropes & Gray LLP - not selective, but can be competitive in desirable locations
24. Paul Hastings LLP - not selective
25. Arnold & Porter LLP - somewhat selective, esp DC
26. O'Melveny & Myers LLP - not selective
27. Clifford Chance US LLP - not selective
28. Munger, Tolles & Olson LLP - selective
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld LLP - not selective
30. Shearman & Sterling LLP - not selective
31. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP - not selective
32. Baker & McKenzie - not selective
33. Hogan Lovells US LLP - not selective
34. Mayer Brown LLP - not selective (except DC)
35. Goodwin Procter LLP - not selective
36. Proskauer Rose LLP - not grade selective, but tough
37. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy LLP - not selective
38. Cooley LLP - not selective
39. Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP - not selective
40. Linklaters LLP (US) - not selective

Lots of amazing and more selective firms aren't on this list. Also, being grade selective doesn't make a firm better. Lots of great firms dont care about grades at somewhere like HLS but they look for other qualities and shouldn't be dismissed.

Could you please quantify "selective", "somewhat selective" and "not selective" by the number of Hs? Thanks!

My impression is that as a rule of thumb you need:
"Selective" = significantly more Hs than Ps (at least 6 or 7 Hs)
"Somewhat selective" = above median (4-6 Hs)
"Not selective" = you can still get at median or below (0-3 Hs)
with the understanding that 1) the precise level of grade selectivity does indeed vary within each designation, and 2) having good grades only gets you so far - I've seen people with good grades struggle during EIP and callbacks due to poor interviewing skills while others with lower grades but stronger interviewing skills breeze through and get the jobs they want with relative ease.

ETA: scooped

I would be a little more generous and have said wrt grade selectivity roughly 0-2 for non-selective, 3-5 for somewhat selective (median and above), and 6+ for selective. But yea. Obviously there are cases where someone with 2Hs gets Simpson NY or whatever but no one list can account for every outlier.

[GoldenBoy57]

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[despina]

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Anywhere. Congrats!

[jingosaur]

For 1Ls panicking- just try to get as many Hs as you can get this semster and then apply to the firms you want and see what happens.

[tomwatts]

0L here. I have a buddy who will be attending HBS in the fall, and we're considering rooming together. I know HLS and HBS are a little far away from each other, so we're trying to figure out where to focus our searching. Are there any locations in particular that work well for both schools?

On the north side of the Charles but near one of the bridges, probably. Basically just halfway in between the schools.

[despina]

0L here. I have a buddy who will be attending HBS in the fall, and we're considering rooming together. I know HLS and HBS are a little far away from each other, so we're trying to figure out where to focus our searching. Are there any locations in particular that work well for both schools?

On the north side of the Charles but near one of the bridges, probably. Basically just halfway in between the schools.

The midpoint is really Harvard Square, which is pretty expensive.

Take a look at the shuttle service, though -- there's a great route that goes from the law school (WCC) to the business school (iLab). If you live near one, the other person could easily commute.

Edited to add: forgot the shuttle link: http://www.transportation.harvard.edu/s ... tle-routes

[leslieknope]

When professors consistently assign like a 100 pages a night, do they seriously expect us to read it all? Just... wondering.

[4for44]

Now that BSA apps are coming up, what kind of grades do you need to be competitive? Apologies if it's been answered, I didn't see anything more concrete than "better than median and do well in LRW."

My understanding is that grades (even in LRW), while a factor, matter less than what your Climenko/BSA/interviewer say about you.

My Climenko fellow said being a BSA is one of the only jobs at Harvard where "being nice actually matters."

Is there a grade cutoff though? If you have around Median grades and a 1st semester LRW P, is it worth even applying for?

I don't think anyone can give you a precise answer about cutoffs. But you have no way of knowing what your spring LRW grade will be (some people do much better writing briefs than memos). You also don't know what your regular spring grades will be. Both will weigh just as heavily in the selection process as the grades you've got now (and I don't believe that one P in LRW, by itself, is disqualifying). IF you're interested in being a BSA, why not apply?

I can tell you that getting a P (or even both Ps) in LRW definitely will not disqualify you from being a BSA if you are otherwise qualified. The only thing you can do that will automatically disqualify you from contention is not applying. If you want to be a BSA, might as well throw your hat in the ring.

[mdnyc]

0L here. I have a buddy who will be attending HBS in the fall, and we're considering rooming together. I know HLS and HBS are a little far away from each other, so we're trying to figure out where to focus our searching. Are there any locations in particular that work well for both schools?

On the north side of the Charles but near one of the bridges, probably. Basically just halfway in between the schools.

The midpoint is really Harvard Square, which is pretty expensive.

Take a look at the shuttle service, though -- there's a great route that goes from the law school (WCC) to the business school (iLab). If you live near one, the other person could easily commute.

Edited to add: forgot the shuttle link: http://www.transportation.harvard.edu/s ... tle-routes

Awesome. This is great. Thank you!

[jingosaur]

When professors consistently assign like a 100 pages a night, do they seriously expect us to read it all? Just... wondering.

I've learned to understand that I'm not going to do all my reading. There are more people than you'd think who do all of the reading for these kinds of classes.

[hlsperson123]

When professors consistently assign like a 100 pages a night, do they seriously expect us to read it all? Just... wondering.

I've learned to understand that I'm not going to do all my reading. There are more people than you'd think who do all of the reading for these kinds of classes.

Personally I try to do all the reading, but when professors do that I unashamedly read online case briefs and even bring a copy to class if laptops aren't allowed.

[Orion311]

How much is the yearly stipend for BSAs?

[foxes]

When professors consistently assign like a 100 pages a night, do they seriously expect us to read it all? Just... wondering.

i did the first semester but i just cant bring myself to care enough this semester. i just use outlines and listen in class

[robotrick]

Anyone have info/experience with "WD" (withdrew after deadline) notation for a class? As in, how bad does it look on a transcript, how to get one, etc. Thinking about taking one instead of continuing with a class. PM if you wanna. Thanks!

[foxes]

can anyone tell me what the typical summer intern period is for 1Ls? do people usually leave after law review write on, or maybe right after exams, or do they wait a few weeks? and how many days before eip should i be back in cambridge? ty in advance

[Indifference]

Related to above, is it a bad idea to skip EIP?
Really not interested in a firm gig, but also don't wanna be unemployed haha.

[lunixer]

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[ValeVale]

Hi. I'm a 0L and just got accepted at Harvard. Getting cold feet. A few questions if you don't mind answering:

1) Are you happy you chose to attend Harvard, given the other offers you had for various schools, your then-current job/job offers, etc?

2) I consider myself to be a pretty smart guy, but not a genius. I have a pretty meh undergrad GPA (~3.7 very good state school, difficult major), and got in mostly on the basis of my LSAT, my sounds-impressive work experience, and my grad degree. But given that I'm not THAT smart (and certainly not as smart as people who get a 173+ LSAT on their first try) will my classmates totally outclass me? I am very dedicated to work and have a whole lot of stick-to-it-iveness.

3) Are the stories about Harvard being a cutthroat institution true? I know that they have tried to soften their image, but should I still expect students to be stealing books from the library or stuff like that? Will I be laughed out of the room if I'm cold-called and don't know the answer?

4) My impression is that the higher-ranked the school the "easier" it is, at least relative to law school in general. If I am choosing between, for example, Harvard and NYU, knowing that this is not by any means an exclusive or even important criteria for my decision, which school should I expect to be easier?

5) As you apply for jobs, do you find that the Harvard name is valuable? Compared to, say, Columbia/NYU/etc? How valuable?

6) I'm visiting the campus on ASW April 1-2. Any advice on what I should check out while I'm there? Secret things that my sway my decision one way or another?

Thanks very much for your help and input.

1L, so take with a grain of salt.

1) I've been very happy with my decision to attend Harvard so far. Had full schollys at other schools, but decided on H over those offers and S. It comes down to being a personal decision, so I encourage you to check out all the ASWs to see best fit, and then make the best financial decision for your self.

2) No- you'll be fine. Worst case you get straight Ps.

3) I haven't experienced H to be very cuttthroaty at all. Sure there are competitive students, but I really like the experience that I've had in my section (all 1Ls take their first year classes, with the exception of two classes in the spring, with their section of 80 people). The changes to the law school under Justice Kagan also have helped in this regard- the grade system, WCC building, free coffee= better environment.

4) I think its challenging here. Depends what easier means to you. Students work hard here, but grade system helps.

5) 1L so dont really want to comment, but I found it to be a differentiator in my 1L job search.

6) I'm a seafood guy, so if you're not from this area I would try to eat some! Lobster rolls all day.

[HLSstudent]

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[Mr. Elshal]

Hi. I'm a 0L and just got accepted at Harvard. Getting cold feet. A few questions if you don't mind answering:

1) Are you happy you chose to attend Harvard, given the other offers you had for various schools, your then-current job/job offers, etc?
Absolutely. I had a couple of job offers and was accepted to some other T14 (but withdrew all outstanding apps once I got into H). Going into it, and now on my way out, I'm confident that this was my best choice. That's obviously a personal judgment call, but that's all I can really give you. I'm super-happy I chose to come here.

2) I consider myself to be a pretty smart guy, but not a genius. I have a pretty meh undergrad GPA (~3.7 very good state school, difficult major), and got in mostly on the basis of my LSAT, my sounds-impressive work experience, and my grad degree. But given that I'm not THAT smart (and certainly not as smart as people who get a 173+ LSAT on their first try) will my classmates totally outclass me? I am very dedicated to work and have a whole lot of stick-to-it-iveness.
stick-to-it-iveness is basically all you'll need. The school is really good at figuring out who will succeed here. I had around a 3.7 gpa but good lsat, but I don't think those are indicators of whether you'll do better or worse than other people in the same school. I have classmates who had 4.0s in college and couldn't seem to get it together in law school, and vice versa. I wouldn't say that's the norm, because it's not, but you shouldn't take your numbers as an indication of how you'll do here.

Also, hard work will get you most of the way to a pretty successful tenure here. As long as you're smart enough to get in, which it seems that you are, you should do just fine. I also don't think people think about it as a competition, so you probably wouldn't feel outclassed even if you were--that's just not how it works around here unless you hang out with a terrible crowd of people (and they're usually easily avoidable).

3) Are the stories about Harvard being a cutthroat institution true? I know that they have tried to soften their image, but should I still expect students to be stealing books from the library or stuff like that? Will I be laughed out of the room if I'm cold-called and don't know the answer?
God no. I know of a small handful of really competitive people from my section but everyone else just sees them as jerks and avoids them. They tend to hang out amongst themselves, stroking each other's egos and convincing themselves that grades are everything in life, but everyone else recognizes them for the out of touch weirdos they are.

Don't assume that because I dedicated a paragraph to this that these people are common. They are few, far between, and easy to avoid. Also, because of our funky grading system, a huge proportion of your classmates will probably have their transcripts dotted with a lot of Ps and some Hs, so you don't have to worry about the person with a B+ making fun of your B. They are one and the same, living in perfect harmony as a P.

As for cold calls, it's like every school: you'll feel nervous the first time, a little more confident the next, eventually you'll handle them with aplomb, and then you'll stop caring and "pass" indiscriminately even if the teacher doesn't allow passing. A cold call is a cold call, and it doesn't count toward your grade. You'll be fine.

I've never had books stolen, and I've even left my laptop without it being stolen. A lot of people share outlines with each other, so there's not really much need to steal books unless they have Christmas in them and you're feeling like the Grinch. I wouldn't worry about this.

4) My impression is that the higher-ranked the school the "easier" it is, at least relative to law school in general. If I am choosing between, for example, Harvard and NYU, knowing that this is not by any means an exclusive or even important criteria for my decision, which school should I expect to be easier?
Harvard might be considered easier in the sense that straight Ps (very rough equivalent of straight B's) still get you a decent job, whereas the same grades, even out of a place like NYU, might not. Otherwise, I have no idea if the students there put in more work, take more credits, have more free time, or enjoy the occasional Netflix binge. With that said, my life has been pretty nice since I got here, and I must've finished well over 30 tv shows from first season to last over the past three years, so how bad could it be?

5) As you apply for jobs, do you find that the Harvard name is valuable? Compared to, say, Columbia/NYU/etc? How valuable?
As I mentioned in my last answer, I think we get a lot more leeway re our grades, but I can't say that for sure because I never tried being an NYU student with almost all Bs. I have seen the Harvard name come in very handy when I'm trying to organize a conference (and over 50 CEOs answer my email within a day) and when trying to apply for jobs at small firms or companies (where people tend to be somewhat impressed by the name). I've cold-emailed tons of people who are highly ranked enough to ignore strangers like me, and they just answer, which is fascinating. The name is valuable, but I don't know whether it'll get you a better job than an NYU or Columbia person. You can get some jobs with lower grades, though.

6) I'm visiting the campus on ASW April 1-2. Any advice on what I should check out while I'm there? Secret things that my sway my decision one way or another?
Definitely check out student groups. I joined three my first year, and then narrowed down to one and went as far as I could up the leadership structure in that group. It was a great experience and gave me a reason to be emailing people I otherwise wouldn't. It also gave me an excuse to invite people I wanted to meet to come speak on campus. Then I would take them for lunch or coffee and have a one-on-one. It's a great opportunity to shape your own network in a proactive and thoughtful way. Interested in finance? Just keep inviting hedge fund managers. Sports? Bring in people from teams you like (many of them come anyway). Retail? Bring in people from stores you're interested in.

I think the most valuable thing you can do is find a student group that aligns with your interests and take full advantage of it.

Thanks very much for your help and input.

See my answers in-line. I'm a 3L.

[lunixer]

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