UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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elterrible78
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby elterrible78 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:03 pm

Wedge Antilles wrote:
No. Levmore is a horse of a different color.


To say the least. You may as well wipe your ass on the money as spend it on a supplement for Levmore.

Wedge Antilles wrote:But more broadly...


I also want to echo everything else he said. I watched people get absolutely wrecked by 1L, and they were almost all the kinds of people who came in thinking they were going to be Supreme Court clerks and then having the combination of a curve and an extremely impressive group of classmates disabuse them quickly of that notion. This sounds so cliche, and I'm one of the last people who would inanely spout cliches, but you really have to just do your own thing. Don't worry about what anyone else is doing or not doing; do what feels right to you. It's hard to know what that is at first, especially before you get that first set of exam grades back, but figure it out and your mental health will be so much better for it. Maybe "right" for some people legitimately is living in the fucking library and buying every supplement known to man and starting practice exams one month into class, but definitely not for everyone.

So, don't convince yourself that because NumberOneGunner hasn't breathed fresh air in eight weeks, your future success and very worth as a human being depends on you doing the same.

bill_swerski
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby bill_swerski » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:11 pm

Everything that elterrible said is spot on.

It's really best to approach 1L with the idea that you are entering unknown territory. You are in a class with some damn smart people; you won't know where you will stand until your spring exam grades are released in July (spring quarter counts for literally 60% of your grades, so even if you are steamrolling 1L exams fall/winter, you can get destroyed by a few bad spring exams. The reverse is obviously true also).

The worse thing is when you come into class with the idea that you are going to absolutely kill it. It's possible that you will, but it's even more likely that you will end up around median (which is not a bad thing, in spite of what a lot of 1Ls think). The bad part will be coming to grips that you are not as special as you thought. If you can get over that earlier on, I guarantee you will have a much better 1L experience.

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Companion Cube
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Companion Cube » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:22 pm

If there is one thing that MAY help you (I.e. A 1L with no clue what's going on), it would be to let go of the idea that you know anything. At. All. Basically, be open minded. I don't just mean at the very beginning, but keep that mentality throughout the year. Bringing in you're own inpenetrable preconceived notions and prejudices will not get you far. Think of yourself as more of a blank slate, and be ready to let your prof write anything on it.

That's not to say you shouldn't have your own opinions, but save those for in class discussion and law review articles. Don't bring them into an exam.

I think it helped me accept the material easier than some others. You will find that some law can be hard to swallow because, on the surface, it makes absolutely no sense. Well, let the academics and litigators argue over what the law should be. You just have to take it as your profossor deals it for now.

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elterrible78
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby elterrible78 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:25 pm

bill_swerski wrote:The worse thing is when you come into class with the idea that you are going to absolutely kill it. It's possible that you will, but it's even more likely that you will end up around median (which is not a bad thing, in spite of what a lot of 1Ls think). The bad part will be coming to grips that you are not as special as you thought. If you can get over that earlier on, I guarantee you will have a much better 1L experience.


This, a thousand times this. Let me tell you rising 1Ls something: median at the University of Chicago is a pretty damn comfy spot to be in, and below median can be pretty nice too, depending on your personality and life story. You could do far, far worse (and literally tens of thousands of law students across the country do worse) than median at this school. It's a really interesting dynamic: everyone is where they are (read: here) because they have some kind of competitive streak, but then you get here and, for all practical purposes, nobody really has to compete anymore, at least not in any meaningful sense.

I spent a lot of time thinking about the unwritten prohibition of talking about grades, and I honestly think more grades-transparency would help more than it hurts. People at the top and bottom already know they're at the top and bottom, but the 80% or whatever clustered around median would see that they're in the same boat as everyone else, and I think that would be really helpful for many of them (because I got a strong sense that, with the black-box approach to grades, people who were doing just fine were convinced that they were failures).

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Emma.
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Emma. » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:49 pm

WheninLaw wrote:1L's are ridiculous about supplements (I was guilty of this as well). I think the only class where they are "necessary" is CivPro. Even then, borrow them from the reference room. Spending $200+ on them is a huge flame.


This!

Seriously, you don't need to think about supplements at this stage. Although you should do what works for you, I think even most of those people who use supplements use them more for exam prep than early in a class. The library has all the supplements you need, but even if you are set on blowing $$ at the very least it's worth using their collection to find the supplement that best fits your learning style.

bill_swerski
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby bill_swerski » Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:24 pm

elterrible78 wrote:
This, a thousand times this. Let me tell you rising 1Ls something: median at the University of Chicago is a pretty damn comfy spot to be in, and below median can be pretty nice too, depending on your personality and life story. You could do far, far worse (and literally tens of thousands of law students across the country do worse) than median at this school. It's a really interesting dynamic: everyone is where they are (read: here) because they have some kind of competitive streak, but then you get here and, for all practical purposes, nobody really has to compete anymore, at least not in any meaningful sense.

I spent a lot of time thinking about the unwritten prohibition of talking about grades, and I honestly think more grades-transparency would help more than it hurts. People at the top and bottom already know they're at the top and bottom, but the 80% or whatever clustered around median would see that they're in the same boat as everyone else, and I think that would be really helpful for many of them (because I got a strong sense that, with the black-box approach to grades, people who were doing just fine were convinced that they were failures).


Yeah, I think most students fall into the trap of not realizing how good of a position they are in from the beginning. I often thought of it like being in the NBA (or whatever pro sports league) of legal academics; everyone wants to be Lebron James, but very few people can. Nevertheless, you are still in the NBA. It's easy to forget that there are plenty of other law schools in the city of Chicago where students are struggling to get any job. You are fortunate enough to be at school where you have pretty much won the "law school game" upon entry (unless of course, you think you will only be successful if you become a Supreme Court clerk. If that is the case, you are in for a rude awakening).

I also agree about the grades comment; more transparency would be better. After all, you will know who makes law review, etc. at the end of the day. However, 80% of the class is pretty much clustered around median, and the distinction between a 177 and 178 can be minuscule. Unfortunately, it seems that law students in particular are the type of people who constantly worry about these fine distinctions (which in the end don't matter at all).

At the end of the day, law school is a professional school. You are training to be a lawyer. Try to relax and enjoy 1L (you will only be an 1L once). I also recommend trying to maintain a "blank slate" mindset. In the legendary words of Professor Helmholz: "Originality is one of the most dangerous traits of a law student."

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DontStopBeliebin
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby DontStopBeliebin » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:00 pm

Wedge Antilles wrote:Talking to people from Michigan about your law professors at this stage is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.


Pretty sure all he said is "folks here won't be able to help", which is pretty on point. It's why that HLS kid came into our thread to ask about Hubbard - there's no point asking anyone in the UChicago thread about how a professor is if that professor had never taught here before.

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skers
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby skers » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:16 pm

Hope y'all listen to the chill the fuck out advice. 1L really doesn't have to be that bad if you don't let it be.

Wedge Antilles
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Wedge Antilles » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:45 pm

DontStopBeliebin wrote:
Wedge Antilles wrote:Talking to people from Michigan about your law professors at this stage is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.


Pretty sure all he said is "folks here won't be able to help", which is pretty on point. It's why that HLS kid came into our thread to ask about Hubbard - there's no point asking anyone in the UChicago thread about how a professor is if that professor had never taught here before.


Insofar as supplements for crim go, which is what the question entailed, this is wrong.

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DontStopBeliebin
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby DontStopBeliebin » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:55 pm

Wedge Antilles wrote:
DontStopBeliebin wrote:
Wedge Antilles wrote:Talking to people from Michigan about your law professors at this stage is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.


Pretty sure all he said is "folks here won't be able to help", which is pretty on point. It's why that HLS kid came into our thread to ask about Hubbard - there's no point asking anyone in the UChicago thread about how a professor is if that professor had never taught here before.


Insofar as supplements for crim go, which is what the question entailed, this is wrong.


Sounds like he had a response to someone asking about a specific professor, and you're objecting to that because you posted earlier about how you think there's only one recommended supplement for crim.

Pretty sure for the specific question "Any good supplements for crim law with Starr?", your answer is probably about as good as a 0L's, especially if his answer was "no one here will have a helpful answer about this specific professor" and yours was "here's the supplement I think is good for all professors please don't disagree with me".

You should really learn the limits of your knowledge and stop acting like you know everything.

Wedge Antilles
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Wedge Antilles » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:08 pm

Except there really is only one good supplement for crim and I just got done telling everyone to calm their balls with supplements and wait until classes start and until they get their feet wet. So you must not have read what I wrote.

The more important component is that he needs to stop giving advice about things to which he has no experience.

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Emma.
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Emma. » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:25 am

Robb wrote:Image

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DontStopBeliebin
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby DontStopBeliebin » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:45 am

Wedge Antilles wrote:Except there really is only one good supplement for crim and I just got done telling everyone to calm their balls with supplements and wait until classes start and until they get their feet wet. So you must not have read what I wrote.

The more important component is that he needs to stop giving advice about things to which he has no experience.


No, unfortunately for me, I did read what you wrote, and "you should really learn the limits of your knowledge and stop acting like you know everything".

I'm just here to tell the 0Ls to take the shit you say with a large grain of salt.

WheninLaw
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby WheninLaw » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:04 am

Only in a UoC thread could telling 0Ls to chill out turn decidedly un-chill.

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KMart
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby KMart » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:55 am

...So how about da Bears?

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eliminatorjr
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby eliminatorjr » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:16 am

KMart wrote:...So how about da Bears?


I hope john fox can turn the defense around, but they are going to be so bad again.

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Rahviveh
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:49 am

n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t wrote:Does anybody have outlines or supplement recommendations for the following courses?

Antitrust Law (Krishnamurthy)
Litigating Financial Disputes (Casey)
Economic Analysis of the Law (Malani)
Class Action Controversies (Brody)

Thanks!

Don't use supplements for Malani and don't go to class either. His exam is a big joke. Unless you are an LlM, in that case learn to speak English

WheninLaw
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby WheninLaw » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:22 pm

n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t wrote:Does anybody have outlines or supplement recommendations for the following courses?

Antitrust Law (Krishnamurthy)
Litigating Financial Disputes (Casey)
Economic Analysis of the Law (Malani)
Class Action Controversies (Brody)

Thanks!


Economic Analysis of the Law is a wonderful class. Don't go. Don't study. Write intuitive things on the final. Get a 180+.

Actually, go to a couple classes because Malani is awesome.

CAC and Litigation Financial Disputes are great classes. lol at using a supplement for them.

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Robb
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Robb » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:12 pm

FWIW supplements were very helpful to me, especially Dressler as Wedge recommended, and the book in that same series for Property. Also old outlines on the outline bank are helpful to use as a template for your own outline, or to fill in/clarify small areas you missed on your own.

But not something to be worrying about now.

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Robb
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Robb » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:15 pm

Wedge Antilles wrote:
DontStopBeliebin wrote:
Wedge Antilles wrote:Talking to people from Michigan about your law professors at this stage is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.


Pretty sure all he said is "folks here won't be able to help", which is pretty on point. It's why that HLS kid came into our thread to ask about Hubbard - there's no point asking anyone in the UChicago thread about how a professor is if that professor had never taught here before.


Insofar as supplements for crim go, which is what the question entailed, this is wrong.

FYI Warheit was asking Michigan folks about the professor at my suggestion, in particular about outlines, so if you think it was silly of him to do, it's my fault. (But it wasn't a silly thing to do, so there's that.)

One thing to note, too, is that often professors recommend supplements to go with their course, so it wouldn't hurt to ask your prof. My prof explicitly recommended Dressler to everyone on the first day of class.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby beepboopbeep » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:31 am

WheninLaw wrote:
n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t wrote:Does anybody have outlines or supplement recommendations for the following courses?

Antitrust Law (Krishnamurthy)
Litigating Financial Disputes (Casey)
Economic Analysis of the Law (Malani)
Class Action Controversies (Brody)

Thanks!


Economic Analysis of the Law is a wonderful class. Don't go. Don't study. Write intuitive things on the final. Get a 180+.

Actually, go to a couple classes because Malani is awesome.

CAC and Litigation Financial Disputes are great classes. lol at using a supplement for them.


Yea that's a dope schedule.

Man it's so hard to give a shit about the stuff upthread. Us 2Ls/3Ls are going to keep saying chill out (and Mal and ElTerrible have done a wonderful job articulating it, as always). 0Ls are going to keep saying "but..."

I think the thing w/r/t Starr/Dressler/Lewinsky/whatever just doesn't matter. Ultimately, if you're going to buy a supplement, wait until you've at least seen your prof's syllabus, because they might recommend a specific one. Or email the prof like a goddamn gunner. FWIW, Crim was the only class I used a supplement for during 1L. Used Dressler. Got my worst grade of 1L. Some extenuating circumstances, though, involving a visiting professor. And like was said upthread, some people (apparently me) just don't learn well from them. You might be one of those people! All the more reason not to buy one, at least not right away.

Tiny Dancer
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Tiny Dancer » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:07 am

Robb wrote:FWIW supplements were very helpful to me, especially Dressler as Wedge recommended, and the book in that same series for Property. Also old outlines on the outline bank are helpful to use as a template for your own outline, or to fill in/clarify small areas you missed on your own.

But not something to be worrying about now.


Same here. I can safely say I would have been significantly worse off without supplements. I saw a notably jump in my grades once I started using them.

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zhenders
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby zhenders » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:04 pm

Reading back through these past few pages, I feel like it's a pretty lame cop-out to just assume that all 1Ls asking questions are, by default, freaking out; I mean I think frankly, many of us are just excited, and with that comes questions and over-zealousness.

I did the same thing Wahrheit did (reaching out for outlines/old exams once I found out my profs) -- but that doesn't mean I'm sitting at home staring at them or blowing my summer memorizing E&Es; I won't even open the files until it's legit time to do so.

Realistically, that seems consistent with most of our 1L class thus far. Around 50 of us have been rotating in and out of parties held at different apartments and bars (pre-kapnicking basically, with 100x the alcohol); no one's talking about their books (or if we are, it's "yeah, we should probably get those before shit gets too expensive"). Overall, no one's stepped up (intentionally or otherwise) as super anal-retentive, or as the library-til-midnight guy or girl.

I think what I'm getting at is, with regards to the "chill the fuck out, silly 1L" language, maybe give us the benefit of the doubt just a bit? I mean I'm coming to law school having worked full time through undergrad and being a non-student for a few years, and I'm not that atypical of this class. Most importantly, I'm certainly not the only one who isn't itching to turn 1L into an 80 hour a week grind.

This is a killer resource, but who the fuck wants to ask questions here when there's a 2L or 3L standing by ready to make a shit assumption about you and shoot off a snark-as-fuck non-answer?

Wedge Antilles
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby Wedge Antilles » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:31 pm

Congratulations. Yours is the first class in the history of law school without gunners. I'm pretty sure when I read back through the thread you are receiving very substantive answers about supplements - part of which is calm down a little bit and wait things out, as they are not necessary. Not sure why you're so upset about that. Nobody's brushing anyone off.

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zhenders
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Re: UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

Postby zhenders » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:43 pm

You're absolutely right :) I've been super grateful, too: so many people have chipped in to help put me on the right track and answer questions. What's been unnecessary and depressing, though, is when that advice comes on the backs of snark and rudeness. We're going to the same school; we'll almost certainly meet. You're probably a really friendly guy in real life. When I meet you, though, my first impression will have been that you were the rude, snarky guy.

Bummer.




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