UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
20141023
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby 20141023 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:05 am

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Mal Reynolds
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Mal Reynolds » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:04 pm

I just got the first bar review email. Would there be any value to compiling a spreadsheet of different bars around town? Like drink prices, slutiness of the girls, etc? Not trying to look too far ahead though.

20141023
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby 20141023 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:26 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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2014
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby 2014 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:55 pm

I have high hopes that your guys' class will use lawannounce hilariously, don't let me down.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby beepboopbeep » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:28 am

No problem, I will!

uchi2015
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby uchi2015 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:09 pm

kappycaft1 wrote::lol: ... I realize that it is "taboo" to talk about grades (as beepboopbeep mentioned, we got to hear "the talk" about grades from Dean Gardener too). It is the same way with LSAT scores and UGPA - I would never ask a specific person what they got in undergrad, on the LSAT, or in law school for that matter. However, just like one might want to know that sites like LSN (lots of anonymous data samples about law school admissions) exist, I was just wondering if there was some sort of data out there about UChicago CBs & offers in relation to grades.

I also realize that with OCI, much like law school admissions, numbers don't "guarantee" you anything because a lot of it depends on the candidate. However, if nobody looks at or cares about LGPA, (1) why does it even exist, (2) why do people post their LGPA in the OCI thread when they say where they got CBs from, and (3) why do (apparently some) firms ask about it?

Lastly, as TemporarySaint mentioned with the MoFo position last year, I don't want to "not think about SAs" until after 1L because I am hoping to find one of those random positions offered by an American firm in Tokyo during 1L summer. (Although I know this is not directly related to OCI, I'd still be interested to see how grades work into this; is it basically a matter of if one is the only Japanese speaker in their class then they automatically get the position, or is there some competition for these spots?) :|



It matters insofar as Wachtell/Williams and Connolly/Munger want you to be top 10% (180+), but even then it is necessary and not sufficient.

I know people with right around median grades (177 give or take .5) at firms rumored to be "grade selective" (e.g., Cravath, SullCrom). I know people with 178+ that had fewer offers and CBs than people below 177.

Seriously, grades will have 0 measurable impact on your performance unless you are law review grade-on territory. And even then, I know plenty of LR people who missed out on firms they idolized going into process (which is to say that even LR people should not get too attached to any one firm).

As an aside, I think too many people leaked grades in our class, as you should be able to tell from my post.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:17 pm

uchi2015 wrote:Seriously, grades will have 0 measurable impact on your performance unless you are law review grade-on territory.


This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard on this site. Unless you mean that it will have a major impact but we have no way to measure it (hence "0 measurable impact").

uchi2015
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby uchi2015 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:48 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:Seriously, grades will have 0 measurable impact on your performance unless you are law review grade-on territory.


This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard on this site. Unless you mean that it will have a major impact but we have no way to measure it (hence "0 measurable impact").


I mean, I was mostly shooting for the "measurable" point, but between my anecdotal evidence, the GPA callback report, and OCS saying that above median people strike out too, I think you're overstating things with respect to your assumption.

Really, if you are between 177-179, the correlation between grades and callbacks/offers is EXTREMELY overstated.

AspiringAcademic
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby AspiringAcademic » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:49 pm

uchi2015 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:Seriously, grades will have 0 measurable impact on your performance unless you are law review grade-on territory.


This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard on this site. Unless you mean that it will have a major impact but we have no way to measure it (hence "0 measurable impact").


I mean, I was mostly shooting for the "measurable" point, but between my anecdotal evidence, the GPA callback report, and OCS saying that above median people strike out too, I think you're overstating things with respect to your assumption.

Really, if you are between 177-179, the correlation between grades and callbacks/offers is EXTREMELY overstated.

But think about that statement. You're saying "if you are above median but below the LR cutoff, your standing relative to other people in that range will have minimal influence on your employment prospects." I'm not sure I'd disagree. But I'd add that you'll generally have better outcomes than people meaningfully below median. Perhaps employers divide the world into:
1.) painfully below median
2.) below median
3.) at median or a bit above
4.) LR
5.) K&E
I'd buy that they don't make fine grained distinctions between people within category, but I'd have trouble believing that the category itself didn't matter a great deal.

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2014
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby 2014 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:01 pm

AspiringAcademic wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:Seriously, grades will have 0 measurable impact on your performance unless you are law review grade-on territory.


This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard on this site. Unless you mean that it will have a major impact but we have no way to measure it (hence "0 measurable impact").


I mean, I was mostly shooting for the "measurable" point, but between my anecdotal evidence, the GPA callback report, and OCS saying that above median people strike out too, I think you're overstating things with respect to your assumption.

Really, if you are between 177-179, the correlation between grades and callbacks/offers is EXTREMELY overstated.

But think about that statement. You're saying "if you are above median but below the LR cutoff, your standing relative to other people in that range will have minimal influence on your employment prospects." I'm not sure I'd disagree. But I'd add that you'll generally have better outcomes than people meaningfully below median. Perhaps employers divide the world into:
1.) painfully below median
2.) below median
3.) at median or a bit above
4.) LR
5.) K&E
I'd buy that they don't make fine grained distinctions between people within category, but I'd have trouble believing that the category itself didn't matter a great deal.

The thing is median is ambiguous as are averages for firms that don't want to whip out a calculator and weight them so in practice firms might very well lump groups 2 and 3 together. I obviously won't say they are meaningless but from 176 even to 179 where 75% of the class falls, grades don't correlate much with success looking at anecdotal evidence. Below 176 and at the LR grade on point I think there is a meaningful difference but the large clump in the middle is differentiated some other way.

uchi2015
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby uchi2015 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:03 pm

AspiringAcademic wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:Seriously, grades will have 0 measurable impact on your performance unless you are law review grade-on territory.


This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard on this site. Unless you mean that it will have a major impact but we have no way to measure it (hence "0 measurable impact").


I mean, I was mostly shooting for the "measurable" point, but between my anecdotal evidence, the GPA callback report, and OCS saying that above median people strike out too, I think you're overstating things with respect to your assumption.

Really, if you are between 177-179, the correlation between grades and callbacks/offers is EXTREMELY overstated.

But think about that statement. You're saying "if you are above median but below the LR cutoff, your standing relative to other people in that range will have minimal influence on your employment prospects." I'm not sure I'd disagree. But I'd add that you'll generally have better outcomes than people meaningfully below median. Perhaps employers divide the world into:
1.) painfully below median
2.) below median
3.) at median or a bit above
4.) LR
5.) K&E
I'd buy that they don't make fine grained distinctions between people within category, but I'd have trouble believing that the category itself didn't matter a great deal.



Well, I think you're making more categories than I would. I'd say the grade ranges where there are no impact on OCI results are:

1) painfully below median
2) below median-above
3) LR+

Admittedly, my knowledge of groups 1 and 3 is pretty scarce, but between talking to people this year/from previous years, and looking at the callback report, I am fairly confident about the second group.

uchi2015
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby uchi2015 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:04 pm

2014 wrote:The thing is median is ambiguous as are averages for firms that don't want to whip out a calculator and weight them so in practice firms might very well lump groups 2 and 3 together. I obviously won't say they are meaningless but from 176 even to 179 where 75% of the class falls, grades don't correlate much with success looking at anecdotal evidence. Below 176 and at the LR grade on point I think there is a meaningful difference but the large clump in the middle is differentiated some other way.


Basically, I agree with this.

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skers
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby skers » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:23 pm

It's pretty fucking tough to figure out what the value of grades are and what level. They almost definitely aren't the fucking end all be all. Still, while some people with 176s are successful and some kids with 179s are not, I'm guessing there's a higher percentage of the latter doing well. But what the fuck do I know.

gchatbrah
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby gchatbrah » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:39 pm

Focus on (1) doing well and (2) networking/learning about firms.

(1) means working hard, trying to learn the law, and exchanging ideas with your classmates. Hopefully, you get above median, but I don't think stressing out about what "grade cutoffs" there are helps you get there; furthermore, those grade cutoffs largely don't exist at this school, outside of (1) being super below median and (2) looking at Wachtell/W&C/Munger-type firms.

I can't stress (2) enough. Go to receptions. Email attorneys that you meet there, and learn about their practice. Express an interest. Know what these firms do. These little things will help come OCI time, potentially much more so than a 178 vs. a 179 on an exam. If you end up at/around median, the work you put in here can make a gigantic difference.

AspiringAcademic
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby AspiringAcademic » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:36 pm

uchi2015 wrote:
Well, I think you're making more categories than I would. I'd say the grade ranges where there are no impact on OCI results are:

1) painfully below median
2) below median-above
3) LR+

Admittedly, my knowledge of groups 1 and 3 is pretty scarce, but between talking to people this year/from previous years, and looking at the callback report, I am fairly confident about the second group.

You could be right. Unfortunately the only hard data we have is the callback report, and the upper and lower bounds are pretty useless for this question. That someone with a 175 got a callback at such and such means only that there is some set of circumstances that would allow that to happen, not that it is common or that people with marginally higher GPAs don't have an edge. I'm mostly thinking that the range of grades on a 179 transcript is going to look very different than the range of grades on one with a 175-6, and that it's a lot better to have one or two abnormally high grades than one or two abnormally low ones.

uchi2015
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby uchi2015 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:59 am

AspiringAcademic wrote:
uchi2015 wrote:
Well, I think you're making more categories than I would. I'd say the grade ranges where there are no impact on OCI results are:

1) painfully below median
2) below median-above
3) LR+

Admittedly, my knowledge of groups 1 and 3 is pretty scarce, but between talking to people this year/from previous years, and looking at the callback report, I am fairly confident about the second group.

You could be right. Unfortunately the only hard data we have is the callback report, and the upper and lower bounds are pretty useless for this question. That someone with a 175 got a callback at such and such means only that there is some set of circumstances that would allow that to happen, not that it is common or that people with marginally higher GPAs don't have an edge. I'm mostly thinking that the range of grades on a 179 transcript is going to look very different than the range of grades on one with a 175-6, and that it's a lot better to have one or two abnormally high grades than one or two abnormally low ones.


I'm pretty sure a 175-176 falls into the "painfully below median" category, so I don't really disagree with what you are saying vis a vis a 176 transcript vs a 179 transcript.

I do think given the number of data points we have, that the minimum callback GPAs are more informative than you let on.

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Crowing
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Crowing » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:58 pm

Still haven't gotten notice of Ventra Card being shipped and I moved over to the new system online from the Chicago Card Plus a month ago - is anybody else in a similar position?

20141023
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby 20141023 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:19 pm

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JDeezy
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby JDeezy » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:57 pm

Fall 2014 1L here.

Had heard that Regents was the place to live 1L (social hub, nice amenities, etc.) But was surprised that it was 2 miles away from the law school. Is that distance a pain? I want to live near the school and have as easy of a 'commute' as possible.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:02 pm

JDeezy wrote:Fall 2014 1L here.

Had heard that Regents was the place to live 1L (social hub, nice amenities, etc.) But was surprised that it was 2 miles away from the law school. Is that distance a pain? I want to live near the school and have as easy of a 'commute' as possible.


It's a 15-20 minute bus ride to the law school as long as the bus doesn't get stuck in the snow like today. The 172 line is free for UChicago students if you show your id and it stops directly in front of regents. I don't think the distance is a pain at all, especially since there is a 6 bus line that goes directly downtown outside of regents. It's a bigger hassle to get downtown when you live closer to campus. I love going downtown so I think it's a reasonable compromise.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby beepboopbeep » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:07 pm

JDeezy wrote:Fall 2014 1L here.

Had heard that Regents was the place to live 1L (social hub, nice amenities, etc.) But was surprised that it was 2 miles away from the law school. Is that distance a pain? I want to live near the school and have as easy of a 'commute' as possible.


I'm not in Regents, but am a couple buildings away. Everyone takes the 172 bus and it's quite easy, and free for UC students. It's not a short commute - 15-25 minutes in winter depending on weather and quality of bus driver - but it's much more convenient to be on the beginning of the bus route than basically anywhere in-between. The 172 is usually packed by the third or fourth stop. So unless you're going to live south of the Midway - which a lot of people aren't comfortable with, as it's not really Hyde Park proper anymore - Regents and surrounding buildings are about as good as you'll get, commute-wise.

Living around 53rd/Woodlawn can be nice too but you'll have to deal with occasional buses that blow right by the stop due to fullness. The thing you should also think about commute-wise is grocery stores - the cheaper, produce-oriented one is around 53rd/Woodlawn, but the more normal/expensive one is at 55th/Lake Park, so it can be kind of a walk getting food back to the Regents area (though it has a mini-mart thing, which is pretty pricy even by Hyde Park standards). There's a Whole Foods coming in right near Regents but I'm not sure it'll be done by Fall 2014; last I heard was something like summer/fall 2015. The calculus changes if you're bringing a car.

Also, living in east Hyde Park is much more convenient for getting uptown.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:09 pm

Also regents has terrible amenities.

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Crowing
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby Crowing » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:37 pm

Living south of the midway isn't terrible from what I've seen; there's housing still north of 61st that's relatively cheap and sufficiently unsketchy.

Echoing what has been said, the Regents area is served by two bus lines (171 & 172) which you can ride for "free" with your UChicago ID. The buses do stop at 6:30 PM but if you're staying later than that there's a Regents shuttle and also the shuttles operated by UChicago.

I wouldn't say Regents has "nice amenities." I think most people who live there would agree that other than the social benefit, living there is not really a good deal financially compared to other buildings in the area as far as how nice of a place you get for how much you pay.

JDeezy
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby JDeezy » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:10 pm

Regents Poster here...

Great info, thanks to all. Looks like Regents is $~1100-1200 to go without a roommate.

Obviously a personal call, but anyone with any opinions on whether to go with a roommate or not? Looks like it would be significantly cheaper. I like to play guitar (quietly) and spend time alone in my room. Would a guitar fill the apartment with noise?

What kind of rent are we looking at "south of the midway?" What kind of sketchiness are we looking at?

TYIA.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: UChi Current Students Taking Questions

Postby beepboopbeep » Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:31 pm

JDeezy wrote:Regents Poster here...

Great info, thanks to all. Looks like Regents is $~1100-1200 to go without a roommate.

Obviously a personal call, but anyone with any opinions on whether to go with a roommate or not? Looks like it would be significantly cheaper. I like to play guitar (quietly) and spend time alone in my room. Would a guitar fill the apartment with noise?

What kind of rent are we looking at "south of the midway?" What kind of sketchiness are we looking at?

TYIA.


I'll leave the top part of the post for someone who doesn't unilaterally hate roommate situations, but as for south of the midway:

1. It depends
2. It depends

To be a little more helpful, the area has really improved over the last 3-4 years since they put an undergrad dorm at 61st/Ellis. Generally, the closer you are to that, the apartments will be nicer but also more expensive. Studios will probably be 600-800 (Hyde Park studios roughly range from 750-1000), 1BRs 800-1000 (Hyde Park: 900-1500), 2BR 900-1200 (Hyde Park: 1000 to 1800), and so on. For these numbers I'm sort of half spitballing (based on living in Hyde Park for the last seven years) and half looking stuff up on http://marketplace.uchicago.edu/apartments, which is where most of the small brokers or independent landlords post apartments for rent (note that it's January, and many leases in Hyde Park run August/September - July/August). It's also a bit skewed by the fact that the higher-cost apartments in the area around South Campus are much, much nicer than you'd get for the same price in Hyde Park, so you can end up with a pretty swank place for not a lot of money down there.

The tradeoff is, of course, safety*. A lot of us who've been at UofC for a while remember the UC grad student who was shot and killed at 61st and Ellis a few years back, and will probably never live around there for that reason - but that's kind of a stupid availability heuristic thing. The campus police do patrol down to 63rd or 64th, I believe. Crime rates for Woodlawn are not good, (http://spotcrime.com/il/chicago/woodlawn, http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/community/woodlawn), but Woodlawn is a big area and crime around south campus area is probably closer to Hyde Park than it is to Woodlawn levels. If you are living down there I'd advise sticking at least somewhat close to the south shuttle (--LinkRemoved--) to minimize walking distance, though the shuttle routes do change seemingly at whim and on little notice.

Kind of a choose your own adventure, I guess. Personally, not living in Regents, I feel like I haven't made as many connections to the rest of the class as a lot of the Regents people seem to have, and while it hasn't kept me from finding a great group of friends sometimes I regret not being a part of the whole 1L Regents scene. Diff'rent strokes and all that.

*ETA: there are also no grocery stores anywhere near south campus. It's not that hard to take the 171/172 to or from 60th and Ellis, but it is a hassle and will add 30-40 minutes to an already somewhat arduous task.




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