UChi Students & Alumni Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
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cjcregg
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby cjcregg » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:17 pm

Emma. wrote:
cjcregg wrote:I'm starting to have reservations about my decision to enroll at Chicago. I still haven't withdrawn from NYU. I'd like to work in a large firm in NYC my 2L summer and after graduation. It seems to me that NYU students have better access to NYC firms. At least, an NYU student can be below median and stand a good chance of finding a Big Law job. Can Chicago students at median (where the vast majority of the class resides) access Big Law jobs in NYC?


Yes.

I have no idea what you mean about "better access," but you'll do just fine in NYC coming from UChi.


I'm sorry, but can you be a little more specific? You probably can't be fine in NYC regardless of what your grades are like in Chicago. I'm asking what sort of grades you need at minimum at Chicago to merit consideration at large firms in NYC. What I have heard is that if you're in the bottom-third at Chicago, you should target other markets.

Flash wrote:Chicago typically places better into Big Law than NYU.

I assumed this was true before, but NYU seems to place a slightly higher-percentage of graduates in firms w/ more than 500 attorneys.
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm

GoodFood
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby GoodFood » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:27 pm

cjcregg wrote:
Flash wrote:Chicago typically places better into Big Law than NYU.

I assumed this was true before, but NYU seems to place a slightly higher-percentage of graduates in firms w/ more than 500 attorneys.
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata
http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm


ETA: Actually, Chicago did better by 1.81% for the Class of 2010 :D

Math:

(NYU)--487*.61 at EIW = 307 Students at Firms, 307*.81 = 248 at 500+ firms. 248/497 = 49.89% of the entire class ended up at 500+ firms.

(UChi)--195*71 at OCI = 139 Students at Firms, .139*.73 = 101 Students at 500+ firms. 101/195 = 51.79% of the entire class ended up at 500+ firms.

Yes, NYU placed more of it's graduates who MADE THE CUT during EIW at 500+ firms, but a smaller portion of the class seems to have MADE THE CUT to begin with =). Although stuff like PI/clerkship bias and all that jazz complicates the whole picture (how many wanted biglaw at each school to begin with, etc). I think it's safe to say that at the very least, they place equally well into NYC biglaw. Agreed?

ETA2: And the year before, Chicago did much better at 500+ firms actually:

Math2:

(NYU)--(471*.716 at EIW)*(.815 at 500+ firms)/471 = 58.35% of the entire 2009 class at NYU went into a 500+ firm.
(Chicago)--(206*.805 at OCI)*(.828 at 500+ firms)/206 = 66.65% of the entire 2009 class at UChicago went into a 500+ firm.

That's an 8.3% advantage in favor of Chicago :D (unless my math is stupid, someone intelligent should double check).
Last edited by GoodFood on Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:55 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Xifeng
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Xifeng » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:27 pm

Chicago is a small market, so a lot of UChicago kids with less than stellar grades go to NYC. Because its bigger and they can therefore find jerbs. But not as many UChicago kids want NYC, so you should be fine.

Really, wanting NYC from here is NOT a concern. Seriously.

GoodFood
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby GoodFood » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:43 pm

Xifeng wrote:Chicago is a small market, so a lot of UChicago kids with less than stellar grades go to NYC. Because its bigger and they can therefore find jerbs. But not as many UChicago kids want NYC, so you should be fine.

Really, wanting NYC from here is NOT a concern. Seriously.


What do you think about someone like me trying to get a gig in NY during my 1L summer? I'd love to be back in NY. I know it's tough to find a 1L SA period, but is it realistic for me to expect to find SOMETHING worthwhile in NY (e.g. an internship)?

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cjcregg
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby cjcregg » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:00 am

GoodFood wrote:they place equally well into NYC biglaw. Agreed?


Not convinced yet. Those numbers describe placement in 500+ firms nationally, not specifically in NYC.

And for some reason you didn't accept the percentages that were presented on the websites which only represented those that select into firms and instead modified your numbers to be representative of the entire class. I don't know why your statistics are necessarily more telling in terms of each school's ability to place in Big Law.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:01 am

This is "UChi Kids Taking Questions," not "obnoxious arguments by 0Ls."

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Emma.
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Emma. » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:11 am

cjcregg wrote:
GoodFood wrote:they place equally well into NYC biglaw. Agreed?


Not convinced yet. Those numbers describe placement in 500+ firms nationally, not specifically in NYC.

And for some reason you didn't accept the percentages that were presented on the websites which only represented those that select into firms and instead modified your numbers to be representative of the entire class. I don't know why your statistics are necessarily more telling in terms of each school's ability to place in Big Law.


There are far too many factors at work that will determine your ability to get a NYC biglaw job for anyone to be able to tell you exactly how your chances will change between the two schools.

UChi grads have no issue getting work in NYC, and IMO UChi is a great school. If you are concerned about coming to UChi hurting your chances of getting an NYC firm job as compared to NYU you shouldn't be.

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Haymarket
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Haymarket » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:13 am

Bildungsroman wrote:This is "UChi Kids Taking Questions," not "obnoxious arguments by 0Ls."

Please stop hurting recruitment.

GoodFood
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby GoodFood » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:16 am

cjcregg wrote:
GoodFood wrote:they place equally well into NYC biglaw. Agreed?


Not convinced yet. Those numbers describe placement in 500+ firms nationally, not specifically in NYC.

And for some reason you didn't accept the percentages that were presented on the websites which only represented those that select into firms and instead modified your numbers to be representative of the entire class. I don't know why your statistics are necessarily more telling in terms of each school's ability to place in Big Law.


For the bolded, I did so because the statistics on the websites for how many grads placed into 500+ firms are OUT OF how many placed in firms TO BEGIN WITH. For example: A school might only place 10% of its grads in firms, but 100% of those grads into 500+ firms. That obviously doesn't mean you have a better shot at getting into a 500+ firm from that school than you do at NYU, because only 10% placed in firms in the first place. Am I missing something big here...?

For the underlined, yeah I see your point, but I guess it's the closest thing we'd get at this point. Honestly, the rough estimates from the data and the anecdotal evidence I've been getting from UChicago/NY students seems to suggest if you want NY, you'll be fine.

A UChicago student from NY told me only about 40 students try to get NY biglaw during OCI. Would other Chicago students like to confirm that?
Last edited by GoodFood on Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Emma.
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Emma. » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:17 am

GoodFood wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Chicago is a small market, so a lot of UChicago kids with less than stellar grades go to NYC. Because its bigger and they can therefore find jerbs. But not as many UChicago kids want NYC, so you should be fine.

Really, wanting NYC from here is NOT a concern. Seriously.


What do you think about someone like me trying to get a gig in NY during my 1L summer? I'd love to be back in NY. I know it's tough to find a 1L SA period, but is it realistic for me to expect to find SOMETHING worthwhile in NY (e.g. an internship)?


I think there's a good chance of getting something in NY if that is what you want to do and are willing to take unpaid work. It seemed to me that my 1L summer almost everyone went where they wanted to go. When you are willing to work for free, it isn't hard to find somewhere that is happy to have you (and the school pays you $5K if you are doing unpaid PI work).

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Xifeng
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Xifeng » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:18 am

GoodFood wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Chicago is a small market, so a lot of UChicago kids with less than stellar grades go to NYC. Because its bigger and they can therefore find jerbs. But not as many UChicago kids want NYC, so you should be fine.

Really, wanting NYC from here is NOT a concern. Seriously.


What do you think about someone like me trying to get a gig in NY during my 1L summer? I'd love to be back in NY. I know it's tough to find a 1L SA period, but is it realistic for me to expect to find SOMETHING worthwhile in NY (e.g. an internship)?


Yeah, I know a lot of 1Ls with internships/paid jobs in NYC.

Cj, I think you want #s/info we don't have. We can't give you anything concrete, just our experiences and our friends' experiences. If you're that concerned, I suggest contacting OCS.

& lol @ haymarket

GoodFood
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby GoodFood » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:18 am

Emma. wrote:
GoodFood wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Chicago is a small market, so a lot of UChicago kids with less than stellar grades go to NYC. Because its bigger and they can therefore find jerbs. But not as many UChicago kids want NYC, so you should be fine.

Really, wanting NYC from here is NOT a concern. Seriously.


What do you think about someone like me trying to get a gig in NY during my 1L summer? I'd love to be back in NY. I know it's tough to find a 1L SA period, but is it realistic for me to expect to find SOMETHING worthwhile in NY (e.g. an internship)?


I think there's a good chance of getting something in NY if that is what you want to do and are willing to take unpaid work. It seemed to me that my 1L summer almost everyone went where they wanted to go. When you are willing to work for free, it isn't hard to find somewhere that is happy to have you (and the school pays you $5K if you are doing unpaid PI work).


Really? This sounds dream-come-true-ish for me.

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Xifeng
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Xifeng » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:20 am

Having the $5k funding is amazing. The main NYC drawback is double rent, but I still know at least 5-10 people going to NYC this summer.

GoodFood
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby GoodFood » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:21 am

(As a side note, I would really like to thank all of you guys who are answering our questions--I know you guys remember how tense of a time this can be for prospective students, and what you're doing is REALLY helpful.)

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Haymarket
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Haymarket » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:21 am

Xifeng wrote:
GoodFood wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Chicago is a small market, so a lot of UChicago kids with less than stellar grades go to NYC. Because its bigger and they can therefore find jerbs. But not as many UChicago kids want NYC, so you should be fine.

Really, wanting NYC from here is NOT a concern. Seriously.


What do you think about someone like me trying to get a gig in NY during my 1L summer? I'd love to be back in NY. I know it's tough to find a 1L SA period, but is it realistic for me to expect to find SOMETHING worthwhile in NY (e.g. an internship)?


Yeah, I know a lot of 1Ls with internships/paid jobs in NYC.

Cj, I think you want #s/info we don't have. We can't give you anything concrete, just our experiences and our friends' experiences. If you're that concerned, I suggest contacting OCS.

& lol @ haymarket

Hey, you are here to answer all of their questions, no matter how minute or impossible to answer. Do your damn job.

GoodFood
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby GoodFood » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:22 am

Xifeng wrote:Having the $5k funding is amazing. The main NYC drawback is double rent, but I still know at least 5-10 people going to NYC this summer.


Ah but you see, it's dream-come-true-ish for someone already from NY because we wouldn't have to pay rent :P .

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cjcregg
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby cjcregg » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:22 am

Bildungsroman wrote:This is "UChi Kids Taking Questions," not "obnoxious arguments by 0Ls."


Nor is this thread "current students chastising 0Ls" which it seems has devolved into on a few pages. I am not out to argue w/ other 0Ls. I want to make a sober and informed decision about which law school I'll be attending in the next week. Statistics or anecdotes are more meaningful than assurances that "everything will be ok".

I really appreciate the time Chicago students have taken to address the concerns and questions of admitted students. This thread has been enormously helpful. Still, there's no need to get testy simply because an admitted student wants information rather than pledges from unaccountable strangers.

GoodFood wrote:For the bolded, I did so because the statistics on the websites for how many grads placed into 500+ firms are OUT OF how many placed in firms TO BEGIN WITH. For example: A school might only place 10% of its grads in firms, but 100% of those grads into 500+ firms. That obviously doesn't mean you have a better shot at getting into a 500+ firm from that school than you do at NYU, because only 10% placed in firms in the first place. Am I missing something big here...?


No, you are right. That was indeed helpful.

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Haymarket
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Haymarket » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:23 am

cjcregg wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:This is "UChi Kids Taking Questions," not "obnoxious arguments by 0Ls."


Nor is this thread "current students chastising 0Ls".


:lol:

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Xifeng
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Xifeng » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:25 am

GoodFood wrote:
Xifeng wrote:Having the $5k funding is amazing. The main NYC drawback is double rent, but I still know at least 5-10 people going to NYC this summer.


Ah but you see, it's dream-come-true-ish for someone already from NY because we wouldn't have to pay rent :P .


Yeah, you'd be pretty much set :D

& haymarket, I'll get right on that after I finish not working on my brief.

& cj, we can't really give you super objective information. We don't work for admissions or OCS, we don't have access to all of that. The only extra insight we have that you don't have access to is anecdotes/experiences. So we can try to help, but I'm not sure we can answer everything. And you should probably just ignore haymarket, he's a bit testy.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:01 am

cjcregg wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:This is "UChi Kids Taking Questions," not "obnoxious arguments by 0Ls."


Nor is this thread "current students chastising 0Ls" which it seems has devolved into on a few pages. I am not out to argue w/ other 0Ls. I want to make a sober and informed decision about which law school I'll be attending in the next week. Statistics or anecdotes are more meaningful than assurances that "everything will be ok".

I really appreciate the time Chicago students have taken to address the concerns and questions of admitted students. This thread has been enormously helpful. Still, there's no need to get testy simply because an admitted student wants information rather than pledges from unaccountable strangers.

You're right, I'll let you get back to arguing with other 0Ls and demanding information we've repeatedly confirmed we don't have.

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Mad Hatter
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Mad Hatter » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:29 am

When is the optimal time time to look for a place in Regents/Algonquin? On a related note, how long before law school started did you guys actually move to Chicago?

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Haymarket
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Haymarket » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:49 am

Mad Hatter wrote:When is the optimal time time to look for a place in Regents/Algonquin? On a related note, how long before law school started did you guys actually move to Chicago?


I can't speak for how Algonquin does things, but for Regents I just sent in my application some time in early summer and then they let me know when one of my preferred apartment layouts was available a month or two later, I don't remember. Orientation is usually around like the third week of September and I moved here like two weeks before that. I would recommend getting here at least a week before to get settled in and to take care of stuff you need, such as:
- Getting your books
- Getting a Chicago Plus card for the CTA
- Going out to a bar with other 1Ls before orientation
- Figuring out the CTA lines
- Exploring Chicago

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blank403
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby blank403 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:35 am

cjcregg wrote:Nor is this thread "current students chastising 0Ls" which it seems has devolved into on a few pages. I am not out to argue w/ other 0Ls. I want to make a sober and informed decision about which law school I'll be attending in the next week. Statistics or anecdotes are more meaningful than assurances that "everything will be ok".


Disclaimer: fellow 0L

I would just like to point out that it is impossible to get a statistic that clearly shows comparative placement power into NYC for NYU vs UChi. You'll never be able to account for self-selection.

You would need to know how many people applied to NY firms with 0 intention of going anywhere else (barring getting shutout of NYC), and how many of those people ended up with NY firm jobs. The first number is impossible to figure out (and therefore, so is the second number).

Thinking about it more - even if you found out these numbers, what about the people that targeted other cities, and got shut out, so they ended up in NY. Wouldn't that be representative of UChi's placement in NY too? Anyway, I think my point is clear.

If you're looking for an anecdote:

As a New Yorker probably looking for a NYC firm job, I try to take solace in NYC being the largest legal market in the country. My understanding is that smaller legal markets are harder to break into because they want you to be able to prove that you want to stay there. I sincerely doubt someone that ends up at a 500 person law firm in Chicago/LA/SF (UChi's other main hubs for employment) wouldn't have been qualified enough to find a similar job in NYC.

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Haymarket
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby Haymarket » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:10 pm

blank403 wrote:
cjcregg wrote:Nor is this thread "current students chastising 0Ls" which it seems has devolved into on a few pages. I am not out to argue w/ other 0Ls. I want to make a sober and informed decision about which law school I'll be attending in the next week. Statistics or anecdotes are more meaningful than assurances that "everything will be ok".


Disclaimer: fellow 0L

I would just like to point out that it is impossible to get a statistic that clearly shows comparative placement power into NYC for NYU vs UChi. You'll never be able to account for self-selection.

You would need to know how many people applied to NY firms with 0 intention of going anywhere else (barring getting shutout of NYC), and how many of those people ended up with NY firm jobs. The first number is impossible to figure out (and therefore, so is the second number).

Thinking about it more - even if you found out these numbers, what about the people that targeted other cities, and got shut out, so they ended up in NY. Wouldn't that be representative of UChi's placement in NY too? Anyway, I think my point is clear.

If you're looking for an anecdote:

As a New Yorker probably looking for a NYC firm job, I try to take solace in NYC being the largest legal market in the country. My understanding is that smaller legal markets are harder to break into because they want you to be able to prove that you want to stay there. I sincerely doubt someone that ends up at a 500 person law firm in Chicago/LA/SF (UChi's other main hubs for employment) wouldn't have been qualified enough to find a similar job in NYC.


On behalf of all current students in this thread:

Image


Image

I hope you're definitely coming to Chicago.

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cjcregg
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Re: UChi Kids Taking Questions

Postby cjcregg » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:40 pm

blank403 wrote:I would just like to point out that it is impossible to get a statistic that clearly shows comparative placement power into NYC for NYU vs UChi. You'll never be able to account for self-selection.


I recognize that. I understand that these sorts of statistics will be impossible to find.

I also understand that Chicago students select a list of firms to interview w/ based in part on a estimation that their grades would not disqualify them from getting a job w/ those particular firms. Do Chicago students perceive that their grades are less disqualifying at Chicago firms of the same size and prestige as NY firms?




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